Degree- worth the paper?

[webdog]

The argument here is that those with a good degree have more knowledge than the average layman.

...and there is no argument because it is all relative.

That tends to mean they are more qualified for leadership in ministry, yes.

Now you are spinning it into ministry and leadership when that was not the initial point.

 

[Luke2427]

I'll take this type of education over any cemetary...uh I mean Seminary.

Sure! I would too! I am 100% in favor of being filled with the Holy Ghost and preaching Christ boldly.

But lets keep in mind that these men sat under a rabbi for better than three years- and not just ANY rabbi- but the omniscient God robed in flesh!

Talk about an education!!!!

And, unless you are advocating the idea that being filled with the Holy Spirit IMPARTS knowledge without study, then you agree with me.

BTW, he certainly HAS done that, and he certainly CAN do that today.

But I think we know that the general way the Holy Spirit imparts knowledge, especially since the close of the Canon and the establishment of orthodoxy, is by creating an insatiable hunger in our hearts for the Truth.

That hunger drives many a young person and many old people to seminary from whence they come forth white hot blazing a trail for the Master!

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

The argument here is that those with a good degree have more knowledge than the average layman.

That tends to mean they are more qualified for leadership in ministry, yes.

There are exceptions, but that is the rule.

We don't want doctors who have no education doing surgery on us.

I was 3 courses (and a few gen eds on top of that) from finishing my bachelors at a Christian University. Obviously I didn't go that next step for Masters/Doctorate, but I honestly don't feel because I was 9 credit hours short of a Pastoral Studies degree that I'm more qualified than someone who didn't attend college. Nor do I feel that some of my classmates who did finish their degrees (and have moved on) arem ore qualified than me.

I will agree to a certain extent that at that level, you have more opportunities given to you and more is expected out of you. You are challenged, and corrected by those above you when wrong (or at least debated). Those who don't take that next step (for whatever reason) and choose to do so on their own don't have the advantage of a classroom setting, but I still believe are being led by the Holy Spirit. And with today's age of technology and more and more things being obtainable than before, I don't know that it is the rule any longer.

The doctor example...it's too definitive. There are uncountable ways to minister to others from the word. To preach and lead people to Christ and to lead. A degree is not required. But if you need to have a heart transplant, well, you're pretty limited. Aside from an uneducated decision to let some guy do it from the back of their car. To be a surgeon you learn by doing, but you have to have the degree/license to legally do it (or at least in the US anyways). Not so with preaching/leading/mentoring from the word.

If the OP actually says "average layman" vs "college degree" then I'll tend to agree with you. But please define "average" layman. Maybe the OP was in a hole from the start? Average by definition is already limited.

 

[Luke2427]

...and there is no argument because it is all relative.
Now you are spinning it into ministry and leadership when that was not the initial point.

No, Webdog, he brought up qualified- not me.

 

[glfredrick]

I'll take this type of education over any cemetary...uh I mean Seminary.

Perhaps Paul was talking about the scholarly when he said:



Alright, I know Paul was addressing the Roman Governor, Festus, but I still think this might apply to some of today's clergy.

A case can be made for Paul's seminary education. He was tutored by Gamaliel, one of Israel's finest teachers. The same can be said for the other Apostles, who attended the Master's seminary (and I don't mean John McArthur's place) for 3 years before they went out into ministry.

 

[Amy.G]

But lets keep in mind that these men sat under a rabbi for better than three years- and not just ANY rabbi- but the omniscient God robed in flesh!

Talk about an education!!!!

And yet, they just didn't get it. They did not understand until Jesus appeared to them after His resurrection and breathed on them. It was then that their eyes were opened.

 

[Steven2006]

And yet, they just didn't get it. They did not understand until Jesus appeared to them after His resurrection and breathed on them. It was then that their eyes were opened.

Great point Amy, and might I say it sounded quite
"scholarly" :laugh:


Seriously though, good point.

 

[Amy.G]

A case can be made for Paul's seminary education. He was tutored by Gamaliel, one of Israel's finest teachers. The same can be said for the other Apostles, who attended the Master's seminary (and I don't mean John McArthur's place) for 3 years before they went out into ministry.

What did Paul say about his qualifications?

Philippians 3:4-7 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinks that he has reasons he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

 

[Luke2427]

And yet, they just didn't get it. They did not understand until Jesus appeared to them after His resurrection and breathed on them. It was then that their eyes were opened.

Honestly, I agree with that.

But notice what the Holy Spirit did to them and does to us:

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
...
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Amy.G]

Honestly, I agree with that.

But notice what the Holy Spirit did to them and does to us:

That's what I've been saying all along. What's your point?

 

[Luke2427]

What did Paul say about his qualifications?

Philippians 3:4-7 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinks that he has reasons he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

He didn't say a thing about his education there- he only talked about those things that kept him from coming to the knowledge of Christ.

In Romans 7:7 he speaks of how he thanked God for knowing the law. He learned the law at the feet of Gamliel.

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

He thanked God then for his education.

 

[Steven2006]

If the OP actually says "average layman" vs "college degree" then I'll tend to agree with you. But please define "average" layman. Maybe the OP was in a hole from the start? Average by definition is already limited.

That has kind of been my point in this entire discussion. If you are speaking in general about large numbers of people it stand to reason those who spent years in school to learn the bible will have a better overall knowledge of the bible then the average person who hasn't.

However when someone concludes they must have a superior knowledge than another person just because they have a degree it is wrong. They can't possibly know how much knowledge that other person might have about that topic.

 

[Amy.G]

He didn't say a thing about his education there- he only talked about those things that kept him from coming to the knowledge of Christ.

What? A Pharisee? Pharisees had to be educated as they were "experts" in the Law.

In Romans 7:7 he speaks of how he thanked God for knowing the law. He learned the law at the feet of Gamliel.

ALL Jews knew the Law. It was read in the Temple and the Synagogues.
I'll bet the precious little widow that put all she had in the treasury even knew the Law.



But you are sidetracking the issue.

 

[webdog]

In Romans 7:7 he speaks of how he thanked God for knowing the law. He learned the law at the feet of Gamliel.

Wow, Romans 7 has nothing to do with his theological education!

 

[Amy.G]

However when someone concludes they must have a superior knowledge than another person just because they have a degree it is wrong. They can't possibly know how much knowledge that other person might have about that topic.

Yes. Exactly. Especially when it is used to "prove" your pet doctrine by saying that "my" doctrine is correct and I know it because I am a scholar and have a better understanding of scripture than you do.

 

[Luke2427]

That's what I've been saying all along. What's your point?

The Holy Spirit brought back what they learned.

The Holy Spirit does not just impart knowledge via osmosis.

He teaches through study and brings back to rememnbrance what has been learned already.

The Seminary student has more the Holy Spirit can use than the layman. Most laymen recognize this.

I don't know why you have a problem with it. Is it because you are a layman and you don't like the thought there are people who know the Bible significantly better than yourself?

 

[Luke2427]

Wow, Romans 7 has nothing to do with his theological teducation!

How did PAUL learn the law Webdog?

He learned it at the feet of Gamaliel.

 

[webdog]

How did PAUL learn the law Webdog?

He learned it at the feet of Gamaliel.

Like I said, that text is not saying that.

He learned the Law as a jewish boy before his Bar Mitzvah. He learned to be a Pharisee under Gamaliel.

 

[Luke2427]

That has kind of been my point in this entire discussion. If you are speaking in general about large numbers of people it stand to reason those who spent years in school to learn the bible will have a better overall knowledge of the bible then the average person who hasn't.

However when someone concludes they must have a superior knowledge than another person just because they have a degree it is wrong. They can't possibly know how much knowledge that other person might have about that topic.

This is how I defined the matter in the OP:

What this thread is about is this- Is it arrogant to say that people who are thoroughly theologically trained and educated tend to have a stronger grasp on the Scriptures than those who have no formal training whatsoever in this matter?

That is how I defined this from the start.

I don't mean to come across "abrasive" here but is it possible that the problem is not with me and my words but actually with some and the way they misinterpreted my words?

 

[Luke2427]

Yes. Exactly. Especially when it is used to "prove" your pet doctrine by saying that "my" doctrine is correct and I know it because I am a scholar and have a better understanding of scripture than you do.

Yea, but since no one has ever said anything like that to you, you have no point here.