Again, false dichotomy (lots of those). The faith is in God that is revealed through the Word, that is known through study. You draw close to the Lord by getting to know Him, through His revealed Word. This is done through Godly teachers, according to the scriptures.
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Degree- worth the paper?
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Again, false dichotomy (lots of those). The faith is in God that is revealed through the Word, that is known through study. You draw close to the Lord by getting to know Him, through His revealed Word. This is done through Godly teachers, according to the scriptures.
glfredrick
New Member
i just started a simple poll. Just click the box for your level of education. No fighting. Just information, please!
Steven2006
New Member
You show me the verse that says it must be a structured seminary education, or the Christian doesn't have a heart for the Lord, wont draw close to the Lord, wont want to serve. The burden of proof is on you to support your claims. I don't think there is anything wrong with going to seminary, you claim all but the rare gifted genius type can't accomplish those thing without it.
Wrong. Nobody has "touted anti-intellectualism" anywhere. Less knowing and more doing is not "anti-intellectualism", but is the purpose of being obedient to Christ.
I already allowed for other systems than Seminary, such as a rigorous 3 year apprenticeship model; what they had in the New Testament. In this model, the teacher eats, sleeps, and walks with the student. They minister together, throughout their day. They spend huge amounts of time studying and discussing the word together.
If you don't want this model, then you have to have a seminary model. This requires men with very specific areas of expertise, rigorous assignments, reading requirements, and interaction with peers to make up for what is being lost in the apprenticeship model.
I am not saying a person cannot be close to the Lord without Seminary. They cannot be close to Lord without studying the Word, however. And their biblical knowledge is never going to equal the knowledge of those who have been through the rigorous training under Godly teachers. Seminary is either valuable, and is therefore better, or it is not valuable, and is a waste of time. If you state the laymen who do not go to Seminary are just as knowledgeable, then you are dismissing Seminary as a useless waste of time and money.
You cannot have it both ways.
Not at all. It is anti-intellecutalism. And the purpose of being obedient to Christ would be more doing AND more knowing...not one or the other. To say "less knowing" in regards to theological education and biblical study, is anti-intellectualism!
The very idea: "I want to know less about God."...
raying:
Just curious...who has deemed you the authority on this matter?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
As I've mentioned before I've seen the down side of seminary and Mk's who wanted to be missionaries or preachers also left the faith because of what they learned in seminary. For instants look at Bart Erhman. Great teacher Metzger, but he became agnostic.
We are all commanded to "not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.." meaning to be faithful in church and to sit under the teaching and preaching of others in the church.
However note that those "others" may not be seminary graduates. Not every pastor is.
Certainly not every SS teacher is. If it is not the pastor then very few SS teachers are seminary graduates. They are simply faithful members that have matured in the Lord. Thus going to church doesn't equate to a seminary training.
The command still stands in the Bible to study--2 Tim.2:15.
We don't live in the culture of the Apostle Paul, W. Carey, or even Spurgeon. Our technology has put us miles beyond them. Using a simple program like sword searcher (and perhaps there are better), the speed at which I can use a concordance, and certain commentaries is unfathomable compared to earlier days. What did they do before Strong or Cruden ever invent a Concordance? Paul didn't have one. Neither the early believers.
Some made some statements about learning Greek. Could a person learn Greek without going to seminary? My wife hasn't been to seminary, so I showed her that post. She disagreed. I suppose she's in that infinitesimally small group of people that Luke says can learn a language without going to seminary. Perhaps many people may have been offended by some of the comments made here. In reality we live in a highly educated society where people teach themselves all kinds of things including other languages, mission fields, history, culture, etc. They do so because they like to learn. Now almost everyone has that access at their fingertips. Books, knowledge, access to it, is readily available to anyone who wants to seek it out.
The only thing some seem to be debating is:
Is there a difference between the education that a person has who needs it to be spoon-fed to him, or
the education that a person who has to dig it out one shovel at a time?
Anti intellectualism is against learning. Capping your education to "go" is not AI. Nobody has said they want to know less about God. You said that.Not at all. It is anti-intellecutalism. And the purpose of being obedient to Christ would be more doing AND more knowing...not one or the other. To say "less knowing" in regards to theological education and biblical study, is anti-intellectualism!
The very idea: "I want to know less about God."...
I am just going by the Biblical model. My question of course, is who has deemed you such? The scriptures state explicitly that men are to be trained under other men for the work of the ministry. Seminary fits this bill. An apprenticeship model fits this bill. "Self study" does not.
?? Saying "less knowing" is exactly that.
It is not. If I feel a Master's is sufficient for my ministry, not pursuing a doctorate is "less learning" I'm surprised you don't see this.
I never claimed to be an authority or said "if you don't do A, you must do B". You did that, not me. I don't see any Scripture stating if you don't go to seminary, you must sit as an apprentice for 3 years. The burden of proof is on you to show me that this is the "Biblical model".
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I think I'll also put these verses here on this thread as well.
Steven2006
New Member
Again I am not criticizing anyone that goes to seminary. I have friends that have, are faithfully serving the Lord and I admire them greatly. But to hold it up as some sort of gold standard of Christianity is wrong. I know of some that have doctorates, learned much are gifted preachers, built large vibrant churches only to see the person fall into sin, their personal lives self destruct, and the church suffers much. Was that the seminaries fault? Of course not, but it obviously wasn't gold standard in those situations. I have known others that didn't attend seminary that have lived long faithful loves serving the Lord. Is that because they didn't attend a seminary, no of course not.
Seminary is wonderful, but I think that it is not required for everyone in order for them to accomplish the plan God has for their lives.
As far as getting back to the knowledge thing again I have answered this over and over again. I think that if two people are discussing a specific are of the bible, and one is seminary trained and the other is not, it would be wrong for the seminary trained person to believe he absolutely must be correct because he has a degree. I think that is the heart of this entire debate.
If I may ask you something. Are you the pastor of a church, or are you in school?
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Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Reading thru all of these posts it seems that both "sides" are being pushed or pushing themselves into more extreme positions.
Can one be powerfully used of God without a good seminary education? Of course, they can and are throughout the world. We tend to be so american oriented about the necessity of sound seminary training when throughout the world men and women are used by God without it.
But does a sound seminary/theological training help people be used of God. Again, of course. Look at men like Al Mohler or Paige Patterson who use their education.
But neither is a guarantee of theological correctness or usefulness to God.
Can one be powerfully used of God without a good seminary education? Of course, they can and are throughout the world. We tend to be so american oriented about the necessity of sound seminary training when throughout the world men and women are used by God without it.
But does a sound seminary/theological training help people be used of God. Again, of course. Look at men like Al Mohler or Paige Patterson who use their education.
But neither is a guarantee of theological correctness or usefulness to God.
Steven2006
New Member
I agree, and it was the inference of that being the case which started this entire debate.
Bobby Hamilton
New Member
I think that's well said.
I think what should be thought upon here isn't the usefulness, but the advantages of having the extra level of education. It doesn't necessarily mean you are more educated/smarter, but people who continue with higher learning tend to know more about what they are studying than those who don't. That doesn't have to be true, but it often is. And here is the main thing: There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That is what one should expect for continued learning in some sort of institution: more knowledge (or at least more access to easier learning)
That doesn't mean that someone who doesn't take that step can't learn, or can't be equipped to teach and lead others. My dad didn't attend college. He preached at our church on occasion (when our Pastor would be out of town) and he was always teaching classes. He lead our youth group and was working with a youth group in a church in San Antonio before he passed. But my dad would be the first to admit that he wasn't as educated as those who went to school and had access to so much more.
As I said in an earlier post...today I think those gaps are a bit smaller, as it's much easier to access information.
What matters is how God uses us. And for one person that may be years of continuing education, and for others it may be self study.
ashleysdad
Member
If your time in seminary did not give you a superior knowledge of scripture to the average person in the pews then are you saying that the two fifteen year olds in my youth group who got saved six months ago have the same level of scriptural knowledge as you? What about the person (adult) that comes to church every week faithfully but has never really been faithful in Bible study, is your knowledge of scripture not superior to theirs? The fact is that for a person to be a qualified teacher or preacher they MUST have a superior knowledge of scripture. Otherwise they are not qualified to teach. How do you teach effectively if you don't know more?
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