Degree- worth the paper?

[GBC Pastor]

Havensdad:

From personal ministry experience, I would say that 9 out of 10 laymen in the church are completely ignorant of scripture.

I hope your "personal ministry experience" wasn't as a pastor or else you didn't do much of a job with that superior theological training.

 

[Don]

Funny...I learned Italian drinking espresso...learned Dari over chai and almonds, raisins, & dried peas...and what little Arabic I learned, was done while we were installing radio antennas. Don't recall ever sitting at their feet....

 

[Luke2427]

What seems incredibly obvious to me is that your position varies as it suits you. Sometime there is "no way it is possible" other times "there are exceptions."

There is no way that it is possible that laity can know as much as a seminary grad if that laity has not learned, greek, etc...

That is what I said.

But as I think has been proven- what is actually said doesn't matter much here, does it?

If the layman learns Greek and receives some awesome training outside a seminary then he in the exception. But if he does not learn Greek, receive some awesome training etc... there is no way he can have as much bible knowledge as a seminary grad, can he?

 

[DHK]

Do you wish to continue trying to argue that I have changed my tune late in this thread or would you at this time like to yield that you are arguing straw men?

What you do is make these ridiculous statements and then contradict yourself. You claim that there are "a few exceptions" like Spurgeon, who was self taught, could learn on his own without the help of others. But these type of people are very minute in number.
Carey taught himself Latin as well as other languages. He taught himself Latin by the time he was six, and other languages as he was repairing shoes.
Spurgeon taught himself, and yes, from other books.

However, that being said, we can all teach ourselves from other books.
And when we tell you that you turn around contradicting yourself and say that the book was written by some seminarian. Carey and Spurgeon learned without Seminary. They learned from books, like many of us do. Being self-taught means taking a book and learning from it. The book is not to be equated with the seminary teacher as you have been claiming. You contradict yourself. If your statement were true, then you would be saying that Carey and Spurgeon went to seminary because they studied from books that came from a seminary. Your position is ridiculous and you have contradicted yourself numerous times on this thread.

 

[Onlybygrace]

In a previous thread Amy made the following observation:




It should be noted that havensdad never said that laymen could not understand the Word of God. He, I am certain, does not believe that as I am sure NNE on here does. He was mischaracterized in the above words.

But he stated that it is striking that those who are most educated tend to be Calvinistic. Now I don't know if that is in and of itself true. I think it is probably accurate seeing that Presbyterian pastors usually have to have at least a seminary degree and that the largest Southern Baptist Seminary, which is also the largest on earth at times, is thoroughly Calvinistic. But that is for another thread.

What this thread is about is this- Is it arrogant to say that people who are thoroughly theologically trained and educated tend to have a stronger grasp on the Scriptures than those who have no formal training whatsoever in this matter?

Is it not also arrogance for laity to assume that they can go to the Bible and dig out as much or more than those who have dedicated a decade of their lives in universities specializing in the study of the Scriptures?

Is it not the epitome of arrogance to not do the work that others have done and then claim that you are at least as able as they are?

A laymen can go to the Bible and get all he needs.

A scholar can go and get more by way of historical grammatical exposition.

If this is not true then why do we have seminaries?

Isn't it arrogant for a person who has little more than a Sunday School education to act as if he knows at least as much about the Bible as one who has painstakingly and at great expense dedicated his LIFE to the study of it?

This is a good thread and some great questions. May i add my humble opinion for what it is worth.

Even though the questions are good I would like to suggest that they approach the issue from the wrong angle, not on purpose but by default.
Starting with the end in mind means that the intent of educating oneself as a preacher and teacher of the word is to equip yourself so that you can better equip God's people to reach maturity in the faith and to train them for works of service as Ephesians 4:11-16 tells us.
The reason I cite this scripture and slightly expound its meaning is because I believe that it provides a backdrop for the pursuit of theological study, whether formally or informally.
One of the things that saddens me most is the present day trend of accumulating knowledge that is disproportionate in volume to its God-intended consequent practical skill and obedience. The true exhilaration of the the Christian life is in the doing and the living not in the knowing and the studying.

A good friend of mine who has numerous doctorates and and has been the dean of the faculty of theology at universities once said: When I was young I used to be concerned about all the things i did not know about the Bible. But now in my seventies, I am concerned about all the things I do know but never seem to put into practice!

That sums it up for me. The reason we have a church of knowers and not doers is because often we as ministers and teachers emulate that philosophy. God designed the church in such a way that a pastor who has never been to Bible school sitting with his congregation of 10 under a tree in Africa can become more of what He wants than 100 pastors in the first world with a congregation of 10000, if he is simply willing to trust God's word enough to obey it.
Truth's potency is not measured in how much of it you understand or have amassed through study but in how much of it you believe enough to live out!

 

[Havensdad]

.
Spurgeon taught himself, and yes, from other books.

It is important to note that Spurgeon himself spoke of the inadequacies of self study, and his own difficulty i n doing such. He also spoke of the startling ignorance of most laymen, and pastors, and started a seminary for the same reasons I have listed on this thread!

 

[Havensdad]

This is a good thread and some great questions. May i add my humble opinion for what it is worth.

Even though the questions are good I would like to suggest that they approach the issue from the wrong angle, not on purpose but by default.
Starting with the end in mind means that the intent of educating oneself as a preacher and teacher of the word is to equip yourself so that you can better equip God's people to reach maturity in the faith and to train them for works of service as Ephesians 4:11-16 tells us.
The reason I cite this scripture and slightly expound its meaning is because I believe that it provides a backdrop for the pursuit of theological study, whether formally or informally.
One of the things that saddens me most is the present day trend of accumulating knowledge that is disproportionate in volume to its God-intended consequent practical skill and obedience. The true exhilaration of the the Christian life is in the doing and the living not in the knowing and the studying.

A good friend of mine who has numerous doctorates and and has been the dean of the faculty of theology at universities once said: When I was young I used to be concerned about all the things i did not know about the Bible. But now in my seventies, I am concerned about all the things I do know but never seem to put into practice!

That sums it up for me. The reason we have a church of knowers and not doers is because often we as ministers and teachers emulate that philosophy. God designed the church in such a way that a pastor who has never been to Bible school sitting with his congregation of 10 under a tree in Africa can become more of what He wants than 100 pastors in the first world with a congregation of 10000, if he is simply willing to trust God's word enough to obey it.
Truth's potency is not measured in how much of it you understand or have amassed through study but in how much of it you believe enough to live out!

I don't know what church you attend, but we certainly do not have a church of "knowers." We have a church of people that are completely ignorant of biblical doctrine, which is why we have no "doers." Scripture is very clear that "doing" does not come from white knuckling exterior behavior, but is a result of the Holy Spirit's work, because of our study of Biblical truth. If you look at the vast majority of missionaries and other "doers," they tend to be the most educated in God's Word. After all the scriptures declare that it is the "Word of God which is at work" in believers...

Take me for example. For the first five years of my Christian life, I heard "Get out and serve,get out and serve," and never did it. But then someone introduced me to Biblical and Systematic theology. As I studied, I saw an emphasis on evangelism and service. Someone also introduced me to Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret." The more I studied, the more I wanted to serve, to evangelize, etc. That is how it is supposed to work...God's Word brings the change, not exterior behavior modification.

 

[Amy.G]

Of the remaining 1 out of 10, probably half have gotten their theology from some pet televangelist, rather than the scriptures, and their own pastor/teacher.

And that is a spiritual problem, not an education problem. All the Seminaries in the world can't fix lazy.

 

[Havensdad]

And that is a spiritual problem, not an education problem. All the Seminaries in the world can't fix lazy.

This is a false dichotomy. Spiritual renewal and redirection come from study.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't know what church you attend, but we certainly do not have a church of "knowers." We have a church of people that are completely ignorant of biblical doctrine, which is why we have no "doers." Scripture is very clear that "doing" does not come from white knuckling exterior behavior, but is a result of the Holy Spirit's work, because of our study of Biblical truth. If you look at the vast majority of missionaries and other "doers," they tend to be the most educated in God's Word. After all the scriptures declare that it is the "Word of God which is at work" in believers...

Take me for example. For the first five years of my Christian life, I heard "Get out and serve,get out and serve," and never did it. But then someone introduced me to Biblical and Systematic theology. As I studied, I saw an emphasis on evangelism and service. Someone also introduced me to Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret." The more I studied, the more I wanted to serve, to evangelize, etc. That is how it is supposed to work...God's Word brings the change, not exterior behavior modification.

On the other hand I know missionaries who didn't have this type of experience nor had gone to seminary however maintained their simple faith in the word. And that's something because I was at RVA for many years and know very many missionaries. In fact many MK's I know went for seminary and ended up falling away from the faith. It really depends on each person and their relationship with the Lord. A person who loves God will stay in the word and love studying it whether or not they have "professional education" in scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

This is a false dichotomy. Spiritual renewal and redirection come from study.

No. It comes from the Holy Spirit through faith and submission to the Lord.

 

[Steven2006]

Take me for example. For the first five years of my Christian life, I heard "Get out and serve,get out and serve," and never did it. But then someone introduced me to Biblical and Systematic theology. As I studied, I saw an emphasis on evangelism and service. Someone also introduced me to Ray Comfort's "Hell's Best Kept Secret." The more I studied, the more I wanted to serve, to evangelize, etc. That is how it is supposed to work.

This revealing. I am not criticizing your path at all, but if seems that you think everyone else is just like you. Just because you did very little for the first five years after you were saved, doesn't mean that is the same for others. You seem to have the attitude that unless all others become the same round peg in order to also fit into your same round hole nobody would grow as Christians. I think you are limiting both God and others when you do that. God uses different peoples different personalities, gifts, strengths and weaknesses. Just from how many people here at BB react to your posts should prove to you that not everyone responds to your methods and personality. I am certain that God is capable of using other people, that choose much different paths for themselves than you have chosen for yourself, to witness, and to serve.

 

[webdog]

They still won't read it. If they did, they would not be able to keep touting anti-intellectualism...

You are being nothing but dishonest, and I'm surprised this is coming from you.

 

[webdog]

This is post number 30.

Do you wish to continue trying to argue that I have changed my tune late in this thread or would you at this time like to yield that you are arguing straw men?

I see, we are now back to the ultra large fonts...the Baptist Board version of the "double dog dare"

 

[matt wade]

I see, we are now back to the ultra large fonts...the Baptist Board version of the "double dog dare"

They teach you how to use those big fonts in seminary. The common man doesn't know how to use them. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

No. It comes from the Holy Spirit through faith and submission to the Lord.

Such a wise statement should have been done in an Arial Font, bolded and italicized with a size 7 :laugh:

 

[Havensdad]

No. It comes from the Holy Spirit through faith and submission to the Lord.

Again, you are confusing categories. It is true that the Holy Spirit and Faith bring spiritual growth. Now, the question is, how do they do it?

They do it through teachers...

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

And these teachers utilize the Word of God...

1Th 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.


God does not just "poof" it into us. He uses means; and those means are teachers and preachers, teaching and preaching the Word.

 

[Havensdad]

You are being nothing but dishonest, and I'm surprised this is coming from you.

There is nothing dishonest about it. I am surprised at the amount of rhetoric on this thread. Perhaps you missed the person saying we need less "knowing" and more "doing" in the church? That is absolutely ant-intellectualism!

 

[Steven2006]

No. It comes from the Holy Spirit through faith and submission to the Lord.

I agree. It can be dangerous for anyone to place too much faith in anything other then God. I am all for education, but if a person has only faith in education in order to draw closer to the Lord, that is placing too much importance in it.

 

[Havensdad]

This revealing. I am not criticizing your path at all, but if seems that you think everyone else is just like you. Just because you did very little for the first five years after you were saved, doesn't mean that is the same for others. You seem to have the attitude that unless all others become the same round peg in order to also fit into your same round hole nobody would grow as Christians. I think you are limiting both God and others when you do that. God uses different peoples different personalities, gifts, strengths and weaknesses. Just from how many people here at BB react to your posts should prove to you that not everyone responds to your methods and personality. I am certain that God is capable of using other people, that choose much different paths for themselves than you have chosen for yourself, to witness, and to serve.

I am not limiting anything. God's Word says it is the word of God that is at work in us. God's Word says he gave us Teachers. Show me where the scriptures explicitly promise knowledge without teachers, and I will shut up. Show me where the Word states that we should have right action, without right belief and understanding, and I will be quiet. Otherwise, you are just telling me how these truths make you "feel".