Scholars vs. Laity

[preacher4truth]

Exactly. That is why Paul wrote in Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I'd be careful using that Scripture as proof text. We don't get the same revelations, of course, so I would be careful to apply it to ourselves, not interpret it to ourselves. I am not saying you have, I am just making a point we may be aware of, but others may not, for cautions sake.

 

[quantumfaith]

I'd be careful using that Scripture as proof text. We don't get the same revelations, of course, so I would be careful to apply it to ourselves, not interpret it to ourselves. I am not saying you have, I am just making a point we may be aware of, but others may not, for cautions sake.

I never seem to quite confident about what "folks" mean when they use the term "proof text", but I do think scripture often teaches "duble entendres" (sp?). Yes, Paul was speaking of his personal experience, but could it not also teach the principle that God will illuminate and enlighten the hearts of men called for specific purposes of God' will? He will in fact equip them to serve Him. Education and training simply serve to sharpen one's skill and knowledge and develops the ability to communicate the Gospel. Now God most certainly can imbue one with this as well, but God has chosen to accomplish this differently than simply creating gospel preaching automatons.

 

[preacher4truth]

I never seem to quite confident about what "folks" mean when they use the term "proof text", but I do think scripture often teaches "duble entendres" (sp?). Yes, Paul was speaking of his personal experience, but could it not also teach the principle that God will illuminate and enlighten the hearts of men called for specific purposes of God' will? He will in fact equip them to serve Him. Education and training simply serve to sharpen one's skill and knowledge and develops the ability to communicate the Gospel. Now God most certainly can imbue one with this as well, but God has chosen to accomplish this differently than simply creating gospel preaching automatons.

"but could it not also teach the principle that God will illuminate and enlighten the hearts of men..." I think that is virtually what I said bro. We use it as application to us.

Here is an incident of some proof-texting this verse. One could come along, and say, "see, Paul received revelations, and so do I, what, you don't believe the Bible? God is always giving me revelations."

I hope that helps clear up what I mean.

 

[quantumfaith]

"but could it not also teach the principle that God will illuminate and enlighten the hearts of men..." I think that is virtually what I said bro. We use it as application to us.

Here is an incident of some proof-texting this verse. One could come along, and say, "see, Paul received revelations, and so do I, what, you don't believe the Bible? God is always giving me revelations."

I hope that helps clear up what I mean.

Thank You Brother. No "criticism" intended. I did have my own "duble entendre" intended, but I miscommunicated it.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thank You Brother. No "criticism" intended. I did have my own "duble entendre" intended, but I miscommunicated it.

No criticism assumed brother. I am not always clear, and wanted to clear that up a bit.

 

[Amy.G]

The way I understood the context of what she was speaking about Amy was answering him in regards to a specific topic. Even more important to this discussion it that the topic being Calvinism, any logical person would agree than many scholars themselves have disagreed about this very thing throughout the years. So it is not like she is arguing that Mary wasn't a virgin or something that most all Scholars agree with him and she then called it arrogant when it was pointed that out to her.

Yes Steven, that is it exactly.

I started the thread because of a couple of comments that were made about most Calvinists being scholars and they discovered the Doctrine of Grace because they were scholars and had learned to understand scripture better than the laity who are uneducated. It was also said that they had more devotion to the scriptures and "cared" more about the study of them.

Those statements are arrogant. My pastor is very educated and I have the highest respect for him and love him. But he would NEVER lord it over me or anyone else that he "knows" more. He teaches us to go to scriptures for ourselves and test what he says against them. And even though he is far more educated than most of us, there are things the we may disagree on.

 

[menageriekeeper]

That's not the point. Just because God guides does not mean he supernaturally educates his people without their dedication to study. He rarely does that.

If you want to know your bible pray and read it. don't just expect god to give it you willy nilly.

If you want to really know your Bible pray and consult with solid commentaries written by great Bible scholars.

If you really, really want to know your bible pray and get a bachelors in Bible.

If you really want to know it and minister it to others with assurance that you have a solid enough grasp on it to be responsible for the shepherding of God's people then pray and get a master's.

God giving us the Holy Spirit does not eliminate our responsibility to do the painstaking labor involved in digging deeper.

On this you and I agree completely. However I must ask you a question:

Do you really believe all pastors should hold a master's degree?

I think you are missing the point of where the arrogance appears. It's not in the amount of knowledge a scholar holds, but the amount of wisdom. I know of many, people who hold degrees in religion, Bible, pastoral counseling or whatever, but who lack in wisdom. That is to say, they hold positions of "authority" but their theology is lacking greatly and they deny or explain away the clear principals of the Word.

Therefore, when Havensdad says we should accept the position of Calvinism just because he says so based on the amount of knowledge he holds, it becomes arrogance instead of instruction.

OK, here is the "equivalence" relation. Being educated in biblical history, languages, criticism etc. , knowing ABOUT the word is not in ANYWAY equivalent to KNOWING the Word.

Excellent! May I add this quote to my sig line?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wat Bees a scola? Be dat a minista oh a Passa? Do he hasa go to da big school? do he be edumicated at Bobby Jones o Liberty? Do he be needin to node election and utter doctraine? Wat be his crumadentials? I be axin!

 

[Steven2006]

This only makes sense if that specific area is one which the scholar has little to no training on.

It is untenable that a bible SCHOLAR would have little to no training on theology and Church History and hermeneutics and bible languages.

So exactly how, concerning these specific areas, does a scholars shot at knowing more than the average laity decreas? I do not understand.

It is only logical. The scholar would have been required to study the entire bible. While some layman I am sure might have read through the entire bible, most will likely not study the entire bible, but instead study more so in the areas that draw them or they find personally interested in. For example there are some people that seem to be very interested in end times, there are others not at all. There are many layman that never study the slower reading dryer areas of the OT, etc. So if we would asked a large group of scholars overall bible knowledge question and then to the same number of layman you would have the first percentage who knew and could properly explain the answers

If we then asked questions about only a specific topic from the bible to scholars and layman, you will have some scholars who maybe don't find that an area they spent as much time in themselves, but some layman might spend most of their time in studying that very area of interest. The odds go up a few more layman might ave a greater knowledge then the scholars.

how is this possible if the layman has no formal theological training and the scholar can quote verbatum the Remonstrance and has written 300 page papers on these theological matters?

It is only possible if the laymen is a genius.

This is even more logical. If an issue is generally greatly disputed even amongst the scholars, and we can keep the example of calvinism her for this discussion. For arguments sake lets just keep it simple and say it is about 50-50 of scholars who believes each side of the issue. It is only logical that half of the scholars are in error to begin with and have a wrong understanding of scripture. So any layman that believed the contrary to those 50% of scholars would have a better, more accurate understanding of the subject.

No one should discuss these things for no other reason than their education but to say that the more specific topics for discussion become the less advantage the scholar has over the laymen is not defensible.

Completely missed my point again. My point about "for no other reason than their education" was this and this alone."the more arrogant one would appear if they choose to be both dogmatic and dismissive of the other person they were discussing it with for no other reason other than their education"

No, this is not the key to THIS discussion. It may be a helpful tool in THAT discussion which addressed that particular topic in that thread to which you are referring- but it is not even helpful here in THIS discussion on THIS thread since THIS discussion is not about whether scholars tend to be Calvinistic. THIS discussion is about the merits of education and does formal theological training tend to make one quite a bit more knowledgeable about Scripture.

I think it is the key, but since Amy started the OP, she would be the one to judge whether it is the key of the discussion or not. But if not the key it certainly is very relevant to this entire discussion.

 

[Steven2006]

Yes Steven, that is it exactly.

I started the thread because of a couple of comments that were made about most Calvinists being scholars and they discovered the Doctrine of Grace because they were scholars and had learned to understand scripture better than the laity who are uneducated. It was also said that they had more devotion to the scriptures and "cared" more about the study of them.

Those statements are arrogant. My pastor is very educated and I have the highest respect for him and love him. But he would NEVER lord it over me or anyone else that he "knows" more. He teaches us to go to scriptures for ourselves and test what he says against them. And even though he is far more educated than most of us, there are things the we may disagree on.

I didn't want to speak for you, but I was pretty sure I understood what you were saying and in what context.

 

[Luke2427]

On this you and I agree completely. However I must ask you a question:

Do you really believe all pastors should hold a master's degree?

No sir, and I did not say that.

I think you are missing the point of where the arrogance appears. It's not in the amount of knowledge a scholar holds, but the amount of wisdom. I know of many, people who hold degrees in religion, Bible, pastoral counseling or whatever, but who lack in wisdom. That is to say, they hold positions of "authority" but their theology is lacking greatly and they deny or explain away the clear principals of the Word.

This thread is not about wisdom- but knowledge. No one is arguing that scholars have more wisdom than laity. They may tend to but that is another subject. This one is about knowledge.

Therefore, when Havensdad says we should accept the position of Calvinism just because he says so based on the amount of knowledge he holds, it becomes arrogance instead of instruction.

Havensdad did not say that- that is a misrepresentation of what he said.

He said it is telling- that means it is a piece of evidence that is not necessarily conclusive.

He did not say that it was a fact that since scholars tend to be more Calvinistic that that proves that Calvinism is right.

When you say that he said that, you are misrepresenting him.

Excellent! May I add this quote to my sig line?

Certainly. Me posts, su posts.:thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

We are not arrogant to think that Amy, we are humbled to believe and trust in God to open our eyes to his Word. Psalm 119:18.

Sounds like laziness to me. God does not as a general rule honor such lazy requests.

God doesn't impart knowledge via osmosis- you have to study.

The more you study the more knowledge God imparts.

If you go the full gambit and spend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours getting a degree then you can expect that generally you are going to get more knowledge from God than those who don't envest so much of themselves in the pursuit of this knowledge.

Scholars do not recieve more, or less, either. God resists the proud. To be fair, there can be this pride among the laity too, but it is definitely rampant among the "scholars."

You cannot substantiate this outlandish claim. I disagree. I think arrogant people tend to be the ones who do not pursue higher education.

One thing I have learned in my pursuit of it is that I did not know as much as I thought I did. I guarantee if you ask anyone else on baptistboard who has pursued higher education they will tell you the same.

I shutter to think of the baseless arrogance I once possessed before education.

I think many, many uneducated possess that same arrogance.

I don't see Scholars listed as those given to the church to edify the church. He did give the teachers though. Some will look at Ephesians 4 and say see, that word can be interpreted "doctor" and I am one. But the thing is, look at the attitude in that, as typically it means "I am way above and beyond you" instead of having the attitude of being a servant, as did our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is advocating such an attitude?

It is strange how people argue against the fact that higher education makes one significantly more knowledgeable about the subject which is his proficiency and yet no one goes to a garbage man for heart surgery.

This is not a condemnation of those with deeress, only to those who have the haughty attitude to go with it.

No one is advocating that people with degrees should have a haughty attitude.

Are you this condemning of laymen who do not pursue higher education and yet slip their thumbs under their lapels and say that "Just because you went to college doesn't mean you know more about the Bible than ME- young punk!"

In other words are you this judgmental against arrogant laymen?

That the teachers become arrogant and are definitely, in this context of the OP, lording over others, or better, attempting to, is pure arrogance. It looks rather foolish as I read excerpts from the OP where this is drawn from, and witnessed how not only said person addressed a lady, but how arrogant he came across in general. He's an elitist and in his mind superior. Who would want a guy like this teaching the poor little saints the Word, when they know how he really feels about them?

This is the kind of personal attack that causes these discussions to be inflammatory. This is ad hominem. You are not making a single argument here- you are just assaulting the character of the one with whome you disagree.

I've seen many laity put the "scholars" to shame in church. Why? Because God can give insight into Scripture above and beyond a paid education. In general, they have more faith in God than most of these scholars emanate. Most of the saints I have seen who are very good teachers of the word have a one over on scholars; they spend much time in prayer, and you can tell.

Let's not forget something here, it is God through His Holy Spirit who leads and guides into all truth, and it is He who empowers our words to give illumination to us to share with others. If it were otherwise, any person could simply learn the languages, cultures, hermenuetics, and every level of expositional preaching, and in turn, dispense truth, and still not be a believer. The truth they dispense may even come with as much power as it does through the scholars who hold arrogant contempt for the laity! Lifeless. Where does being a believer and love come into the equation, scholar? Too educated for the love part? If you are, then there is yet another thing amiss with you as a person, and I would ask why are you even ministering to people?

We should all ask that question. "Why am I doing what I am doing?"

I've read this nonsense elsewhere. It is almost becoming a fad to some that they think only they, who have the languages, should be interpreting Scriptures. You also see it on forums, just in general, that anyone person who attempts to interpret Scripture, in a forum, has subjected himself to ridicule, because no one can interpret Scripture but "I" and "I" alone. So the attacks begin. It is the same attitude the "scholars" have. There have been, I am sure, horrible misinterpretations posted in forums, but that doesn't justify the attitude. Sometimes it's because it is from a zealous babe in Christ. If however someone who is a minister uses subjectivity versus God's Word, to make a truth, or reject one, or to base decisions upon, especially when the Scriptures plainly condemn such, then let the attack begin. That is plain heresy.

Anyhow, it's no wonder the Holy Spirit said through Paul "knowledge makes arrogant." This was to the church he said this.


raying:


- Blessings

 

[webdog]

I think it is arrogant for Amy, or anyone else to put themselves on par with someone who has a ThD. She may be right on occasioin and the other be wrong. But to think she knows as much as he does- well I think that is arrogant.

I think it's arrogant to make such a comment, Luke, considering you have no idea what she knows.

 

[webdog]

I absolutely agree with you. God does reveal truth to all Christians, but let me ask you this. Christian A has spent many years in seminary, they have studied the original languages and are well versed in them. They have spent years learning about the history and customs in the time frame that scripture was written in. For instance they know from their study just what was being referred to when Isaiah said "all of our righteousness is as filthy rags". They have learned how to use solid hermenutics in studying the Bible. Then there is Christian B, they have the exact same amount of the Holy Spirit. They have read Gods word faithfully everyday and never miss their time with God. They have not had the chance to go on to a seminary type of learning environment but God has shown them amazing things from His Word. Their lives are a sterling example of a true, sold out child of God. Who has the more knowledge? Not who is the better Christian or who has more of the Holy Spirit but who has more knowledge and can honestly say that they know more about things concerning the Bible?

This is relative, particularly when there are many different flavors of seminaries, denominations, beliefs, etc. I know Roman Catholic priests who hold doctorates. In the scope of truth, does that mean anything?

 

[Old Union Brother]

I came to the Baptist board to read, learn, exchange ideas, and yes debate I have found myself not debating things that I should, mainly because of personal attacks that I see happening everywhere. This does not do anything to edify the Kingdom. I made a vow to God my words would be to his glory, honor and edification.

I maintain you can speak with authority but still in love. If I cannot back up my point of view with scripture then I’ll remain silent, study and pray until I have an answer. I have not been to seminary as many of you have. But I fully believe God has given me revelations of his word. I also fully believe he rewards his servants that are diligently seek his truth through prayer and studying. He has rewarded me greatly as I seek His truth. When we debate let us keep in mind what is written in I Peter:

3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

A servant in Christ

Jeff

 

[Winman]

I think it is arrogant for me- an educated pastor- to think that I can farm like a member of my church who has received a bachelors in farming and farmed for sixty years.

OK, who would know more, the young pastor who is just out of school, or the aged saint who has studied the scriptures for maybe 60 years and has read the Bible through many dozens of times?

Those who are taught in the seminary are only as knowledgeable and correct as their teachers. If the teacher teaches error, that is what the student will learn. A great example of this is Ephesians 2:8.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

A person taught by a Calvinist will interpret the word "that" that I highlighted to refer to "faith", while most non-Calvinists say it refers to the word "saved".

Now, they both can't be correct, and the difference is major.

If you have been taught that the word "that" in this verse refers to the word "faith" in this verse, it is very difficult for that person to interpret this verse any other way, and likewise, if a person has been taught that the word "that" refers to the word "saved" that person will find it difficult to interpret the verse any other way. Your mind can actually be conditioned to perceive only one interpretation whether true or false. This is especially true of education, because we all tend to trust teachers, believeing them to be far more knowledgeable than ourselves or laymen. But many teachers teach error.

In my own case, I have been saved over 45 years and have read this verse many times. From the first time that I ever read this verse I naturally interpreted "that" to refer to the word "saved". And every Christian I knew in all these years interpreted this verse the same exact way. It was not until recently when I ran into Calvinists on this forum did I encounter persons who interpret this verse differently.

I still firmly believe that the word "that" in this verse refers to "saved", and believe those who believe it to refer to "faith" do so only because they have been taught and conditioned to do so. Of course, a Calvinist will believe the exact opposite.

But the point is this, education is only as accurate and truthful as those who are teaching. If you are studying under someone who is teaching error, that is exactly what you will learn. In this case, education is not an advantage but a detriment.

 

[Luke2427]

This is relative, particularly when there are many different flavors of seminaries, denominations, beliefs, etc. I know Roman Catholic priests who hold doctorates. In the scope of truth, does that mean anything?

I didn't think it was necessary for most folks to have to clarify that we were talking about orthodox, protestant seminaries.
But obviously that's what we mean.

 

[Luke2427]

I think it's arrogant to make such a comment, Luke, considering you have no idea what she knows.

She has no theological degree- that's enough, unless she's a genius. If she claims to be a genius and can back that up or declare that she does have some formal theological training- I will take it back.

 

[Luke2427]

I came to the Baptist board to read, learn, exchange ideas, and yes debate I have found myself not debating things that I should, mainly because of personal attacks that I see happening everywhere. This does not do anything to edify the Kingdom. I made a vow to God my words would be to his glory, honor and edification.

I maintain you can speak with authority but still in love. If I cannot back up my point of view with scripture then I’ll remain silent, study and pray until I have an answer. I have not been to seminary as many of you have. But I fully believe God has given me revelations of his word. I also fully believe he rewards his servants that are diligently seek his truth through prayer and studying. He has rewarded me greatly as I seek His truth. When we debate let us keep in mind what is written in I Peter:

3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

A servant in Christ

Jeff

Wonderful. This is exactly what I ask.

 

[Winman]

She has no theological degree- that's enough, unless she's a genius. If she claims to be a genius and can back that up or declare that she does have some formal theological training- I will take it back.

Wow, you are very proud and conceited.

Prov 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.