Scholars vs. Laity

[Havensdad]

All of you who are advocating actions as more important than beliefs/doctrine; you do understand that this is Phariseeism, right? Right actions are ONLY legitimate, if they stem from a proper understanding of God's Word, and hence, a right motivation for the action taken. After all:

1Th 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

For the Word to work in you, you must have knowledge of it. A greater knowledge of God's Word does not guarantee Godliness, but an ignorance of God's Word guarantees a LACK of Godliness.

 

[Steven2006]

All of you who are advocating actions as more important than beliefs/doctrine; .

I must have missed it. Who are all these people advocating this.

 

[webdog]

Before Seminaries, it was only the Roman Catholic church which "flourished."

I disagree. Since Pentecost, Christ's Church has flourished regardless of the culture or world system at that particular time.

 

[Amy.G]

What if I said: "The majority of scholars/seminary professors reject Calvinism whereas it's mainly the uneducated laity that believe in Calvinism. That does seem to suggest something."



How would you react to a statement like that?

Originally Posted by Havensdad
But, yes, the only place that Calvinism is a majority, is among Bible scholars/Seminary professors. Calvinism is in the minority among the laity. That does seem to suggest something.

 

[quantumfaith]

I must have missed it. Who are all these people advocating this.

Me too, must have missed that. BTW

Ezekiel 33: "But I will judge each of you according to his own ways."

 

[Steven2006]

What if I said: "The majority of scholars/seminary professors reject Calvinism whereas it's mainly the uneducated laity that believe in Calvinism. That does seem to suggest something."



How would you react to a statement like that?

Amy, he might just have poor observational skills. He made this claim also:

"All of you who are advocating actions as more important than beliefs/doctrine;"

When asked to produce proof of this, nothing. When asked to produce proof of the claim you just previously quoted, nothing.

I am starting to believe he just pulls these types of things out of the air, and words them like facts without any actual proof of that at all.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All of you who are advocating actions as more important than beliefs/doctrine; you do understand that this is Phariseeism, right? Right actions are ONLY legitimate, if they stem from a proper understanding of God's Word, and hence, a right motivation for the action taken.

now your beginning to babble. Nobody said that. I think most people in here respect learning & learning takes many many forms. Formal education is just one.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But this thread has just again deteriorated into a Calvinist / Non Calvinist rant.... And its very unbecoming the quality of the people I assumed were above that. you folks want to go on hating one another thats fine with me but Im done with it. Chao

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually this is completely backwards and turned upside down. Before Seminaries, it was only the Roman Catholic church which "flourished." All Protestant denominations, including Baptists, are a direct result of the educational explosion. Dr. Martin Luther is the one that set the whole break with Rome going. Others, such as Calvin, kept it going.

All of this was directly due to God's use of theological education. When people started diligently studying the Word of God and theology, and began going back to the original Greek (instead of the corrupt Latin translations of the RCC), they saw the huge discrepancies, and broke with Rome.

I have a couple of problems with this statement.
1) Before the "Roman Catholic Church" it was the "Catholic Church" and if you read the ecuminical councils and much of the early Christian writings you will find that many men were very educated.
2) Seminaries started very early in the church. That is why for the early part of Christian history you have two primary locations of Christian education or study a) Alexandria and b) Antioch. Much Later Hyppolitus started a school in Rome.
3)Jerome who translated the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic Text into latin used the earliest sources he could find and was very thurough. The latin translation was just that. A latin Translation.
4) During the reformation. The reformers didn't go back to the "original greek" what they did was they went to a compilation of Greek text that came from an incomplete document of the Byzantine text. Erasimus and Stephanus used other source documents to create a here to for non existant single text of the NT into Greek. Even taking Jerome's comon latin text (latin vulgate) and translated back into Greek.
5) The reformers broke with Rome because of abuses and teachings that were more "modern" for them than historically the problem. Which is why many held to St. Augustines teachings.

 

[quantumfaith]

I have a couple of problems with this statement.
1) Before the "Roman Catholic Church" it was the "Catholic Church" and if you read the ecuminical councils and much of the early Christian writings you will find that many men were very educated.
2) Seminaries started very early in the church. That is why for the early part of Christian history you have two primary locations of Christian education or study a) Alexandria and b) Antioch. Much Later Hyppolitus started a school in Rome.
3)Jerome who translated the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic Text into latin used the earliest sources he could find and was very thurough. The latin translation was just that. A latin Translation.
4) During the reformation. The reformers didn't go back to the "original greek" what they did was they went to a compilation of Greek text that came from an incomplete document of the Byzantine text. Erasimus and Stephanus used other source documents to create a here to for non existant single text of the NT into Greek. Even taking Jerome's comon latin text (latin vulgate) and translated back into Greek.
5) The reformers broke with Rome because of abuses and teachings that were more "modern" for them than historically the problem. Which is why many held to St. Augustines teachings.

Thanks once again TS for another clear, concise and articulate contribution to the debate.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

For the Word to work in you, you must have knowledge of it. A greater knowledge of God's Word does not guarantee Godliness, but an ignorance of God's Word guarantees a LACK of Godliness.

Depends on what you mean. A willful ignorance of God's word? Yes. However, there have been many Godly men and women with a cursory knowledge of the word of God. Also I wonder about the NT believers if the first book of the NT was writen 20 years after Jesus' death and resurrection then there was only a limited knowledge of the "word" of God. What people relied on was the Testimony of the Apostles.

 

[Amy.G]

Nobody has advocated a willful ignorance of God's word. That is a strawman and a diversion from the actual topic of this thread.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Nobody has advocated a willful ignorance of God's word. That is a strawman and a diversion from the actual topic of this thread.

It's not a diversion if you read the rest of the post. Apart from willful ignorance of the word of God I believe people can be Godly with very little knowledge of the word of God. So I disagree in this context with the person I quoted.

 

[quantumfaith]

Nobody has advocated a willful ignorance of God's word. That is a strawman and a diversion from the actual topic of this thread.

Amy, to which post are you responding?

 

[preacher4truth]

"I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation." Psalm 119:99 - KJV

(wow, David knew more because he studied and meditated on the word?)


"I know more than any of you: especially the laity, for thou sentest me to seminary." "Psalm 119:99" - ABSV (Arrogant Baptist Scholar Version)


- just for fun

:thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

"I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation." Psalm 119:99 - KJV

(wow, David knew more because he studied and meditated on the word?)


"I know more than any of you: especially the laity, for thou sentest me to seminary." "Psalm 119:99" - ABSV (Arrogant Baptist Scholar Version)


- just for fun

:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Weren't you quoting 1 Opinions 119 from the ABSV?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, to which post are you responding?

I'm sorry. I was responding to Havensdad's post. Not you guys.

 

[Amy.G]

It's not a diversion if you read the rest of the post. Apart from willful ignorance of the word of God I believe people can be Godly with very little knowledge of the word of God. So I disagree in this context with the person I quoted.

I agree. I was responding to Havensdad. Sorry for the confusion. I guess that's what happens when you're just a dumb ol member of the laity. :laugh:

 

[Havensdad]

I must have missed it. Who are all these people advocating this.

Steven...

true religion as our lord put it. Ie... the feeding of the poor. Protection of the widow and orphan etc...

Although JAMES said this, true enough, the word religion here means something like "ceremonial observance." True Christianity is first and FOREMOST right belief/doctrine. Salvation by Grace through faith in Christ...and not the "Christ" of Mormonism, Jehovah's witnesses, etc., etc.