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Women Preachers
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
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It would seem to me that Scripture clearly teaches that women can't hold pastoral office in the church. They can serve in ministry positions though in unordained roles.
The most clear is that the position of senior pastor is reserved for male leadership.
Salty said:
Preaching doesn't equal pastoring. For instance some women are effective evangelists. This involves preaching.
Salty said:
Sure, so long as its a non-ordained role with no pastoral care functions.
Salty said:
This is clearly prohibited in Scripture.
Salty said:
Yep
Salty said:
Are men allowed to teach high school girls?
Salty said:
I'd challenge anyone who says women can pastor or hold pastoral office or serve as deacons to show me in Scripture where you can back that up.
!
NO!
NO!
YES!
YES!
NO!
Yes!
OK mixed
YES!
Christian women have liberty to do what they wish to do; but what they are forbidden to do is to be the HEAD of a church. I have no idea what God will do with a church that has become a church ON THEIR TERMS.
Thousand Hills
Active Member
A. NO
B. NO
B. NO (Speak to other women okay special events, etc.)
C. OK non ordained (VBS, Childrens Church, Sunday School, Kids programs Only)
D. NO
E. 1. NO
2. YES
3. NO
F. If part of a Co-ed class with Male Head teacher OK
Just my conviction based on scripture.
The problem with our churches today is that if men would step up and take a lead this wouldn't be an issue.
B. NO
B. NO (Speak to other women okay special events, etc.)
C. OK non ordained (VBS, Childrens Church, Sunday School, Kids programs Only)
D. NO
E. 1. NO
2. YES
3. NO
F. If part of a Co-ed class with Male Head teacher OK
Just my conviction based on scripture.
The problem with our churches today is that if men would step up and take a lead this wouldn't be an issue.
Unfortunately, it's just not that easy. There are lots of contextual considerations in this, not the least of which is the time in which it was written. Women weren't allowed to do much of anything. They were property. The fact that women also weren't allowed to lead in the Church derives from their standing in society.
Paul was clearly talking to a male-dominated society when he said they must be "husbands of one wife." It wouldn't have made sense at the time to say "...or wife of one husband." It would have been meaningless.
It is a grave error when we try to read in implications that would not have made sense at the time.
Not quite - your non-contextualized interpretation of the Scriptures is your authority.
Paul was talking to a specific people in a specific context. We study it because it still informs and directs us today, but this is not a salient, overarching, umbrella command.
Come on, folks. Many evangelicals who read and pray over the Bible and have a relationship with God are egalitarian. If nothing else, we have to get to the point where we drop as many of our human-made doctrinal constructs as possible and finally allow the Bible to speak to us as it did when it was written.
I think in a lot of cases we'd find we were bowing at the wrong altar.
freeatlast
New Member
What prohibitions does the Bible teach about women Preaching and leadership
A. Are they allowed to be a pastor
Answer: NO
B. Are they allowed to be an assistant pastors
Answer: NO
B. Are they allowed to preach
Answer: to women
C. Are they allowed to hold a position such as Christian Ed Director
Answer: NO
D. Are they allowed to be a Deacon
Answer: NO
E. Are they allowed to teach (in regards to adults)
1. men only
Answer: NO
2. Women only
Answer: YES
3. mixed groups ok
Answer: NO
F. Are they allowed to teach high school boys
Answer: not as clear. I suppose it depends on when you want to declare them as men. However my opinion is NO they should not. IN fact I believe that women should not be teaching young boys past the age of 10 or 12. The reason is I believe that these boys really need to learn from a young age how to be godly men being under the leadership of godly men and waiting until they are 18 or 20 makes it way too late and too difficult.
Any other thoughts?
Answer: I do believe that women can evangelize (preach) outside the church (street preaching and such) to anyone, male or female, as long as it is not part of an organized church.
Also I would say this to the men. Often times when I see this type of question and someone holds to the biblical teachings on this that women cannot be Pastors, deacons or elders, or teach men, I see or hear men start the AMENS as if rubbing it in. I think that all that this does is make it seem like it is a gender war and the woman is less which is not correct. The woman is equal but she has a different calling. I seriously doubt that any woman asked the Lord for these qualifications that limit her. I just think it wise while taking the stand for truth and sound doctrine to be of understanding in this area also. I would point out one more thing. You men be ever so carefull in accepting any position of leadership including teaching as it comes with a stricter judgement. Just in case you did not know. :thumbs:
A. Are they allowed to be a pastor
Answer: NO
B. Are they allowed to be an assistant pastors
Answer: NO
B. Are they allowed to preach
Answer: to women
C. Are they allowed to hold a position such as Christian Ed Director
Answer: NO
D. Are they allowed to be a Deacon
Answer: NO
E. Are they allowed to teach (in regards to adults)
1. men only
Answer: NO
2. Women only
Answer: YES
3. mixed groups ok
Answer: NO
F. Are they allowed to teach high school boys
Answer: not as clear. I suppose it depends on when you want to declare them as men. However my opinion is NO they should not. IN fact I believe that women should not be teaching young boys past the age of 10 or 12. The reason is I believe that these boys really need to learn from a young age how to be godly men being under the leadership of godly men and waiting until they are 18 or 20 makes it way too late and too difficult.
Any other thoughts?
Answer: I do believe that women can evangelize (preach) outside the church (street preaching and such) to anyone, male or female, as long as it is not part of an organized church.
Also I would say this to the men. Often times when I see this type of question and someone holds to the biblical teachings on this that women cannot be Pastors, deacons or elders, or teach men, I see or hear men start the AMENS as if rubbing it in. I think that all that this does is make it seem like it is a gender war and the woman is less which is not correct. The woman is equal but she has a different calling. I seriously doubt that any woman asked the Lord for these qualifications that limit her. I just think it wise while taking the stand for truth and sound doctrine to be of understanding in this area also. I would point out one more thing. You men be ever so carefull in accepting any position of leadership including teaching as it comes with a stricter judgement. Just in case you did not know. :thumbs:
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Robert Snow
New Member
I fear the Sodomites will use the same argument to promote acceptance of sexual deviants being allowed to pastor. Of course, we know that they aren't even Christians, let alone leaders in the church.
Once we start allowing time-based changing to the scriptures according to culture, no telling where we will end up.
Hi Jerome. How right you are.
But notice I refer to A church on this earth (various religions), which scripture tells us is to be headed by a man, for the head of the woman is man, and a woman is not to be the head of A church on this earth. THE Church to which you refer is the Body of Christ Church of which Jesus Christ is the Head.
We have no King, but our Lord is the Head of the true spiritual Church, which we are baptized into by the Holy Spirit of God.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
The problem here is that Paul doesn't appeal to context when he makes his most assertive argument. In 1 Timothy 2:12-14, Paul clearly states his (and therefore Scripture's and God's position):
[12] I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. [13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve; [14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1 Timothy 2:12-14 ESV)
There are a few telling things here:
1. Paul is not writing to a church to address a problem (such as in 1 Corinthians). Paul is simply writing to his protege who is likely pastoring the church in Ephesus. So, here you have an instance of the Apostle instructing the Pastor on proper church order and that order prohibits women from having a position of teaching authority over men.
2. Paul appeals to something other than 1st Century context. In fact, Paul appeals all the way to creation. The Greek word γαρ makes it quite plain why Paul says what he says--it is that Adam was formed first. There is no mention of context outside of God's created order.
3. Paul uses a structure to make his argument in v. 14 that brings attention to the Fall as well as God's order of creation. We know from the curses of the Fall in Genesis 3 that women will desire to rule over their husbands but that the role or "ruling" is given to the man.
So, in summary, it is a simple fact that Paul--who is writing scripture--intends to say that women are not to have the role of teaching authority in any church setting.
So, while you may suggest that most evangelicals are egalitarian (an assertion I seriously doubt), the argument for majority proof is really, really weak. After all, as my college band director used to say, "A million flies can't be wrong," suggesting majority proof. However, my response was always "Sure, but what do flies sit on all day?"
Majority as a "proof" is not an accurate description of fact, biblical or otherwise. In fact, in this case it just goes to show that there are many people living in disordered churches because of their defiance of the clear teaching of Scripture, whilst kowtowing to the culture. Not a good position for so-called Christians who are called and commanded to be different and distinct from the fallen and sinful cultures we have been saved out of. The more the Church resembles the culture and the culture's sinfulness, the less effective it will be.
Blessings,
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Since I waded into the discussion, I felt it was proper and fair to answer the questions in the OP:
What prohibitions does the Bible teach about women Preaching and leadership
A. Are they allowed to be a pastor
-No. 1 Timothy 2:12-14 clearly shows that men and men only are to be pastors holding the position of teaching authority.
B. Are they allowed to be an assistant pastors
-No. See above. Also, since it is biblical for any "pastor" to be an Elder and since an Elder is understood to hold a position of teaching authority, an associate pastor position cannot be rightly held by a woman.
C. Are they allowed to preach
-No. Inherent to the act of preaching is the understanding that the preacher is exercising teaching authority. According to scripture, a woman cannot rightly do this.
D. Are they allowed to hold a position such as Christian Ed Director
-No. Elders are given the responsibility to direct the education of the church. A woman cannot qualify to be an Elder and therefore cannot hold this position.
E. Are they allowed to be a Deacon
-Yes and No.
-No, if the church has Deacons serving in the role of Elders (as most Baptist churches do).
-Yes, if the church has Elders who are leading (exercising teaching authority).
If a church has Elders, there is no problem with having women serve as deacons because the deacons are not serving in either a leadership or authoritative role. Biblically, deacons are servants, not leaders.
F. Are they allowed to teach (in regards to adults)
1. men only
2. Women only
3. mixed groups OK
-Women only
Titus 2:3-5: [3] Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, [4] and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, [5] to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (ESV)
G. Are they allowed to teach high school boys
-Perhaps. This is a bit of a gray area. I don't know of any scriptural prohibition against this. But, I don't think it would be the best of ideas. As a pastor, the only way I'd be comfortable with this is if she was teaching the class in combination and cooperation with her own husband.
Blessings,
The Archangel
What prohibitions does the Bible teach about women Preaching and leadership
A. Are they allowed to be a pastor
-No. 1 Timothy 2:12-14 clearly shows that men and men only are to be pastors holding the position of teaching authority.
B. Are they allowed to be an assistant pastors
-No. See above. Also, since it is biblical for any "pastor" to be an Elder and since an Elder is understood to hold a position of teaching authority, an associate pastor position cannot be rightly held by a woman.
C. Are they allowed to preach
-No. Inherent to the act of preaching is the understanding that the preacher is exercising teaching authority. According to scripture, a woman cannot rightly do this.
D. Are they allowed to hold a position such as Christian Ed Director
-No. Elders are given the responsibility to direct the education of the church. A woman cannot qualify to be an Elder and therefore cannot hold this position.
E. Are they allowed to be a Deacon
-Yes and No.
-No, if the church has Deacons serving in the role of Elders (as most Baptist churches do).
-Yes, if the church has Elders who are leading (exercising teaching authority).
If a church has Elders, there is no problem with having women serve as deacons because the deacons are not serving in either a leadership or authoritative role. Biblically, deacons are servants, not leaders.
F. Are they allowed to teach (in regards to adults)
1. men only
2. Women only
3. mixed groups OK
-Women only
Titus 2:3-5: [3] Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, [4] and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, [5] to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (ESV)
G. Are they allowed to teach high school boys
-Perhaps. This is a bit of a gray area. I don't know of any scriptural prohibition against this. But, I don't think it would be the best of ideas. As a pastor, the only way I'd be comfortable with this is if she was teaching the class in combination and cooperation with her own husband.
Blessings,
The Archangel
preacher4truth
Active Member
I'll just stick to God's Word, and not the words of some "evangelicals" somewhere out there who study and pray, nor to your contextual analysis.
Somehow, this "they prayed" about it (some people somewhere out there) excuse, has been used to "support" way too many things, from your view here even to bible versions. We're supposed to believe a report because "some people out there" prayed over it?
I'll pass.
It's because the Bible does not give any evidence that these restrictions were to be universally followed. I discussed these individuals because a lot of you folks don't seem to understand that this perspective is shared among thousands of evangelical Christians.
Actually, we need to consider it because thousands of women that God has called into ministry haven't been given the chance to do so because of a Church stuck in a sub-christian mindset.
freeatlast
New Member
The bible is not interpreted by the many, but by the faithful. You claim that there is no evidence that this part of the bible is not to be followed universally. What is there in the Tim and Titus texts that suggest other wise?
Also I find it interesting that you feel that holding to what is written is "sub-christian." Are you saying that when this was given it was sub-christian?
preacher4truth
Active Member
I understand where your coming from. Your ideology could be applied to "Preach the Word" as not being univeral in implication too. So could the rest of the imperatives in the pastoral epistles, so once you use that as your platform there is no stopping it anywhere, and it can be applied to all.
Your second line about Christian subculture is only a flow off of your other subjective reasoning on the issue and from the Word. Everything flows from our view of God's Word.
I hold the view that just as "preach the word" was given universally to the male pastor, so also too is the mandate about women. I don't see it as a restriction as you do, in the same manner as I don't see a mans inability to bear children as a restriction on man. We all have our place, and the womans place is clearly not to be in authority over man, nor as a pastor. God made the place of the man and the woman very clear. I won't blur that distinction.
preacher4truth
Active Member
This is what happens, freeatlast, when we trust our own intellectualism above clear mandates.
I'd rather be called old-fashioned, than to be accused of not holding to sound doctrine.
Dr. Kevin Bauder of Central Baptist Theological Seminary of Minneapolis gives a recent refreshingly candid account:
http://seminary.wcts1030.com/resour...eminism-a-the-redemptive-movement-hermeneutic
From his Revisiting Biblical Womanhood powerpoint:
http://seminary.wcts1030.com/resour...eminism-a-the-redemptive-movement-hermeneutic
From his Revisiting Biblical Womanhood powerpoint:
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