Women Preachers

[preachinjesus]

It is speaking to men. Of course it's not going to direct women specifically - there was no female leadership in the first century.

This isn't true. Sorry but it isn't. There are clear NT examples of women leading in certain circumstances. Also there are documents of the first century showing female leadership in larger society. Not being snarky this just isn't true. Paul didn't just write these letters for men only.

 

[jaigner]

But that's just cultural!! It has nothing to do with reality, apparently. Yes, it's clear but if you add up the letters, you will find it's not true. Or something like that.

Please don't keep interpreting me that way. I'm obviously not saying to toss anything out of the Bible. This is a completely skewed misrepresentation.

 

[Jerome]

From the Washington Post, Oct. 12, 1935

Rev. John Compton Ball, D. D.. pastor. The congregation tomorrow will open an evangelistic campaign under the direction of Amy Lee Stockton and Rita Gould. These evangelists who have conducted services in Metropolitan Church for the last four years, have just completed a revival campaign in Fifth Baptist Church. Miss Stockton will preach tomorrow morning on "The Challenge of the Present Crisis." Her evening subject will be "The Greatest Text of the Bible."

This is Capitol Hill Baptist Church (SBC, home of 9Marks Ministries).

From the CHBC website:

. . .Dr. John Compton Ball. Dr. Ball would go on to serve forty-two years at the church and lead it through the trials that accompanied the Great Depression, two World Wars and numerous changes in city life. Known as a gifted teacher, Dr. Ball oversaw an increase in church membership that numbered in the thousands by 1950.
Always doctrinally conservative, the church continued to draw visitors through the 1960s. . . .

 

[nodak]

Scripture is very clear that woman is to be--literal translation--the absolute despot of her house.

So guess she CAN rule it well.

Women are NOT to usurp authority from the men--coming in, snatching it out of their hands, dominating and domineering.

That isn't at all the same thing as not pastoring. Pastors do not rule, they lead (biblically).

I'm going to stand with those northern plains Bible women of long ago and tell the women to do whatever God calls them to do.

And if you disapprove of women pastors, stay out of churches pastored by women.

But that means more of you guys better buy some snuggies and get out into the harvest field instead of going on and on about your exalted positions.

 

[annsni]

It is speaking to men. Of course it's not going to direct women specifically - there was no female leadership in the first century.

However, Paul himself said that there is no male or female in Christ. He very clearly supports women and is very appreciative of women. But we see clearly that in no way are women to be in leadership over men - and Paul's reasoning is creation. It's not a "just for that time" situation but for ALL time.

 

[Jerome]

...but only within the church, right? These "male headship" theories are not so universal that they would apply to government, workplaces, etc. Of course not.:thumbs:

 

[thegospelgeek]

That is a complete misrepresentation of my point. The Bible is as relevant and meaningful as ever. Nothing is being dictated by culture. It's because the Bible did give instructions to a specific people at a specific time. There are a bunch of things that Christians (or Jews) were instructed and allowed to do that we no longer follow.

I read the Bible, listen to what it says, and do my best to apply it to my life. We're still going to have disagreements because we're finite and because of the challenge of interpretation.

I think it more of an exageration of your point more than a misrepresentation. Yes we will have difficulties and disagreements. That doesn't mean we can't be brothers/sisters in Christ. However, you have failed to address the scriptures that teach that Christ is the head/source of man and man is the head/source of woman. The scriptures go on the list many responsibilities of both the man and woman.

Pauls states that a decon must have demonstrated proper "rule of the household". So, the question is, does the scripture teach in any way that a woman is to be the head or ruler of the household?

If it does. Then she can be a deacon or pastor. If it does not, then she can not. I have presented a logical argument with scripture suporting. If you need references I can look them up, but I am aware that you have enough knowlege of the scripture to know my argument quite well.

I await your response.

 

[Jerome]

From the Baptist Bulletin, periodical of the fundamentalist General Association of Regular Baptist Churches.

Nov/Dec. 1934 issue:

NEWS ITEMS
EVANGELIST AMY LEE STOCKTON
Miss Stockton with her associate, Miss Rita Gould, are enjoying much blessing from the Lord. They are now in Washington, D.C. for two meetings; from there they go to California and back to Michigan.

 

[Tater77]

Has anyone brought this up yet?

Romans 16 NASB

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;​

Ok now, the word "servant" is diakonos here. But instead of being translated as "deacon" or deaconess , the word servant is used. But this is not the Greek word for servant.

Then it gets worse. Read more of the chapter. (KJV)

1I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

2That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:​

I havent heard a satisfactory explanation yet as to why these "women" held positions, especially Phoebe.

 

[annsni]

Has anyone brought this up yet?

Romans 16 NASB

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;​

Ok now, the word "servant" is diakonos here. But instead of being translated as "deacon" or deaconess , the word servant is used. But this is not the Greek word for servant.

Then it gets worse. Read more of the chapter. (KJV)

1I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

2That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:​

I havent heard a satisfactory explanation yet as to why these "women" held positions, especially Phoebe.

In our church, we have a woman who is "in charge" of the church. She's the one who organizes the custodial staff and the use of the rooms of the church. Since this is a larger church with a lot of ministries, her job is vital. The custodial staff will go to her to find out what needs to be done as far as work around the church and she will let them know "We have the seniors meeting in the multi-purpose room on Thursday and the homeschool group meeting in the fellowship hall and Sunday school wing on Friday" and they will then know what to do. She's not in "authority" over the church but instead just organizes the needs that need to be met and lets the others know what those needs are. I see Phoebe in the same exact roll as Pam in our church. It is not an authority position but a servant position instead.

 

[BobinKy]

I havent heard a satisfactory explanation yet as to why these "women" held positions, especially Phoebe.

Acts 18:18-19 is interesting.

18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchrea because of a vow he had taken. 19 They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. (NIV 1984)​

Note that Phoebe was from the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16:1), as quoted above.

I have to go outside and put down some salt on the ice. Later tonight I want to see if these two verses (Acts 18:18-19) can be dated on some kind of timeline with the other passages we have been discussing.

...Bob

 

[Jerome]

The ESV calls Phoebe Paul's patron.

 

[annsni]

The ESV calls Phoebe Paul's patron.

The Greek word is "prostatis" and it's a word meaning someone who takes care of the affairs of others.

 

[SRBooe]

Well, I sure do appreciate people taking the time to share their views. For those who are taking the actual words to mean what they say, another question comes to mind. For those of you who follow the words as given to mean for all cultures and for all time, how do you handle this verse:

Titus 2:3-5: [3] Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, [4] and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, [5] to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (ESV)

I would think, then, that we have a conflict with married women having jobs outside the home.

I also am left to wonder if a woman who testifies and leads a man to accept Jesus was sinning all the time she was testifying. For those women who preached- as some other posts have reported - were they sinning while teaching the Word of God?

Please understand that I am wrestling with this. Don't take me for a troll, because these are genuine questions from me.

May God bless you for helping me further. raying:

 

[annsni]

Well, I sure do appreciate people taking the time to share their views. For those who are taking the actual words to mean what they say, another question comes to mind. For those of you who follow the words as given to mean for all cultures and for all time, how do you handle this verse:


I would think, then, that we have a conflict with married women having jobs outside the home.

I work outside the home as well but I am a keeper of my home. Home is my domain, I am the manager of my home, make sure all is done when it needs to be done. I HOPE I'm kind and I'm definitely submissive to my own husband.

I also am left to wonder if a woman who testifies and leads a man to accept Jesus was sinning all the time she was testifying. For those women who preached- as some other posts have reported - were they sinning while teaching the Word of God?

Please understand that I am wrestling with this. Don't take me for a troll, because these are genuine questions from me.

May God bless you for helping me further. raying:

No where in Scripture are women told to not speak to men. Remember that Paul is addressing the church and activity within the church. He is addressing roles in the church and he also addresses relationships in marriage and the home. But no where are women prohibited from speaking to men and "giving the reason for their hope". I DO believe that it is best for men to minister to men and women to women and if there was a man that was asking me a lot of questions and wanting to know more about God, I'd bring my husband into it because I want to avoid any issues with sexuality being involved. Not that I'd sleep with the guy but that I do not want any leading on or misconstruing my motives. I know it's the same for my husband because he HAS handed the ministering of women to me.

As for the women pastors? Yes, I believe they are being disobedient to the Word of God.

 

[ituttut]

However, Paul himself said that there is no male or female in Christ. He very clearly supports women and is very appreciative of women. But we see clearly that in no way are women to be in leadership over men - and Paul's reasoning is creation. It's not a "just for that time" situation but for ALL time.

Oh, if only the saved would allow scripture to interpret itself. I see in many instances you have done so. I like you cannot fathom a mature Christian to just completely disregard Jesus Christ's instructions from heaven.

All we can do is endeavor to further enlighten those in the Body of Christ. In this instance you have kept the faith, staying true to the Word, Jesus Christ our Lord in heaven.

 

[BobinKy]

Oh, if only the saved would allow scripture to interpret itself. I see in many instances you have done so. I like you cannot fathom a mature Christian to just completely disregard Jesus Christ's instructions from heaven.

All we can do is endeavor to further enlighten those in the Body of Christ. In this instance you have kept the faith, staying true to the Word, Jesus Christ our Lord in heaven.

Sorry, but I do not understand your post. What are you saying? Please help an old man understand.

...Bob

 

[ituttut]

...but only within the church, right? These "male headship" theories are not so universal that they would apply to government, workplaces, etc. Of course not.:thumbs:

Scripture please where a WIFE can do as she pleases, and still remain true to her role as a complete woman (one without a head).

Women in many cases can do things that turn out all right, and that is OK as long as the husband does not protest. But a woman that disobeys her husband, and he protests, are you saying this is what scripture will uphold?

 

[SRBooe]

I work outside the home as well but I am a keeper of my home. Home is my domain, I am the manager of my home, make sure all is done when it needs to be done. I HOPE I'm kind and I'm definitely submissive to my own husband.

I truly thank you for your response. To clarify for me, then, the fact that you ALSO work inside your home,you meet the instructions of "working in your home?" If that is the case, then the only way NOT to comply with this verse is if the married woman never works in her home.

I'm sure from the way you phrased your response, that you are kind.

Can I get you to tell my wife know how to do that "submissive" thing? Most of my statements end with "yes, ma'am.":smilewinkgrin:

 

[Jim1999]

My wife and I get along well together. I am not over her and she is not over me. We are together one in Him.

Sorry, I am old and don't change readily, but culture does, and if we don' consider culture in biblical conversations, then we are missing much of the intent. Paul may have illustrated a situation using Adam and Eve, but Adam and Eve were never to be duplicated period. That era ended! Get on with life.

Cheers,

Jim