What is holiness, and where is it today?

[preacher4truth]

I think if we get honest about it we truly cannot comprehend how Holy God is, and how sinful we are. Sin to us is natural, we are such corrupt beings we are used to it. While as Christians, we are no longer slaves to sin, and free from the eternal consequences of sin, we still are in the flesh and have to struggle with our old sin nature. See Romans 7:14-25. I've heard it said our flesh and spirit is like two mad dogs with their tails tied together, constantly fighting each other. Which one will be stronger and ultimately win? The one that is fed the most. We have to feed the spirit in the process to win the daily battles against the flesh, this means, prayer, reading God's word, meditating on God's goodness, confession (he is just to forgive) etc. Personally, the times when I realize I'm not acting like I should usually occur when I fail to spend adequate time in the word.

BTW. This is a great thread with a lot of great thoughts. Please don't let it digress to another thread about seminary education, etc. There's enough of those threads already. :smilewinkgrin:

Excellent points, and same here, when I am not practicing holiness, or perfecting holiness before God.

As a side note, on the "two natures" John MacArthur Jr. actually denies we have two natures. I find that interesting.

I take it you agree with practicing holiness, and that you don't see it conflicting with salvation, nor turning it into a works based effort.

There seems to be a great shift away from practicing/preaching this within the church. Some of the notes on here show almost a mockery of it, and a deep misunderstanding of it also. I do see this especially when some are relating the personal practice of holiness to the past, almost ages in essence, and others being incapable of distinguishing and separating this from the salvation experience.

One of my friends was saved several months ago in Cali. I asked him what he thought about personal holiness, and he was unaware of what it means.

- Blessings

 

[Old Union Brother]

we still are in the flesh and have to struggle with our old sin nature. See Romans 7:14-25. I've heard it said our flesh and spirit is like two mad dogs with their tails tied together, constantly fighting each other. Which one will be stronger and ultimately win? The one that is fed the most. We have to feed the spirit in the process to win the daily battles against the flesh, this means, prayer, reading God's word, meditating on God's goodness, confession (he is just to forgive) etc. Personally, the times when I realize I'm not acting like I should usually occur when I fail to spend adequate time in the word.

BTW. This is a great thread with a lot of great thoughts. Please don't let it digress to another thread about seminary education, etc. There's enough of those threads already. :smilewinkgrin:

Paul’s advice in Galatians speaks to the same issue.

5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Sin nature is strong but praise be to God the spirit is stronger.

 

[Thousand Hills]

As a side note, on the "two natures" John MacArthur Jr. actually denies we have two natures. I find that interesting.

Did not know that, do you know of sources that detail his reasoning?

I take it you agree with practicing holiness, and that you don't see it conflicting with salvation, nor turning it into a works based effort.

Yes, I agree with practicing holiness, and I don't believe it is about works or earning salvation. You mentioned 1 Peter Chapter 1 earlier, it seems pretty straitforward to me. KJV 1 Peter 1: 13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Here is another one, NKJV Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Salvation is such a precious gift we cannot neglect it, we cannot dwell on our past sins (what the devil wants us to do), but we should be humble before God and own up to our transgressions. If we are truly born again, we cannot lose our salvation, we are preserved in the work of Christ. Our liberty in Christ came at a great price though, and we cannot take it lightly, liberty is not a license to sin.

There seems to be a great shift away from practicing/preaching this within the church. Some of the notes on here show almost a mockery of it, and a deep misunderstanding of it also. I do see this especially when some are relating the personal practice of holiness to the past, almost ages in essence, and others being incapable of distinguishing and separating this from the salvation experience.

The prophet Isaiah got it, God has not changed, why can we as believers not understand that?. KJV Isaiah 6:1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Sin nature is strong but praise be to God the spirit is stronger.

Amen!! "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" :godisgood:

 

[MB]

Yes of course, but does one not have to desire to become holy? Do we not have to believe in and be open to Jesus working in our lives to be what pleases God?

I would certainly like very much to be holy. Being sinless is what holy is, isn't it? For my self being holy is being perfect and after many years of striving to be so. I have come to realize that holiness can only be had if God makes me holy. It just seems the harder I try the worse I relize I am

Desire to be holy? Yes of course. And yes we have to be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I just don't believe a man can ever be holy while still in his flesh.

I've met men whom I admire because they seem more holy than myself only to be disappointed, after discovering the truth that they really aren't anymore holy than anyone else.

The only perfect man who ever lived was our Lord. Shouldn't we realize that true holiness, is for us, (in this flesh) impossible. This is not to say give up. It's just admittance of the truth.
MB

 

[preacher4truth]

Did not know that, do you know of sources that detail his reasoning? [/I]

Here is a link, brother:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/1natjm01.htm

I agree 100% with everything you have said. People try to follow the reformers, but seemingly only follow them in intellectual knowledge of spiritual things, but far far away from the holiness they practiced in addition to their high intellectual understanding of spiritual things.

Both sides; the practice of holiness, and the knowledge part, came as gifts of the grace of God to do so.

I wonder why it is now, that this thing is so one-sided, and mainly and almost soley stuck upon the intellectual part, leaving the practicing holiness part aside? And why is my post so difficult to understand?

Interesting.

We don't need more geniuses, we need more persons who are like Him.

 

[glfredrick]

Keep in mind I am only reiterating some things that were important to others in the past, and that I did not define holiness. Only fodder for thought, and a Scripture that says what it says. Being set apart I agree with, and don't see where "holding precisely the disciplines of the faith" unless you came up with that part on your own. However, the Bible has given us some precise things to separate from.

You couldn't find one thing. That is interesting to me.

I believe 1 Peter is a very good place to start as far as living rightly before God. We have to learn that living holy before God does not supplant our great commision duties, but may enhance it.

I think perhaps holiness is not understood or you missed the point entirely which is my fault on that.

Living in a stone room, doing penance, separation from everyone and everything (paraphrasing you) shows how we are afraid to embrace the biblical model and how we just have a total lack of undertstanding about it. Is this the only way you perceive personal holiness brother? Your description is archaic and stereo-typical and goes way into the past with no connection to today, and don't get me wrong, a lot of us think of it this way.

There are many Scriptures that deal with personal holiness. The problem today, among many pastors, is they can see no clear distinction between their people and the world, other than they go to church on Sunday. One way this is seen is a lack of persons in prayer meetings, setting themselves apart in prayer for God to direct them, purifying themselves through prayer and forgiveness, and dedicating themselves to God for direction and His use.

I personally feel our churches are in much trouble because "us scholarly preachers" have designated holiness to some archaic way of the past, and have not truly preached what it is, and/or practiced it ourselves. It was very important in the NT. It wasn't as you have described with your words I do not think.

Note that I did not say I do not separate with some things... Just that separation is not THE most important thing, nor is separation THE biblical definition of holiness.

I find an overemphasis on the act of separation a work that people practice in order to be pleasing to God.

Oh, and for the record, a few of you need to get your panties out of your cracks about the higher education thing. You are missing your own definition of holiness by not separating yourselves from being "accusers of the brethren..."

 

[preacher4truth]

Note that I did not say I do not separate with some things... Just that separation is not THE most important thing, nor is separation THE biblical definition of holiness.

I find an overemphasis on the act of separation a work that people practice in order to be pleasing to God.

I don't think it's the most important thing, but yet again, who am I to judge? it seems Romans 12:1-2 lay a whole lot of importance upon this, by saying, it is the will of God. I'd rank the will of God pretty high.

Is being holy, practicing holiness, pleasing to God? 1 Peter 1:15-16 is an imperative, and we know when we keep His commandments, He is pleased at our obedience; "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." - 1 John 3:22 .

BTW, I have never seen an overemphasis of holy living, unless it is coupled with a works based salvation.

 

[MB]

I am not over looking a thing. You're missing the point entirely. This is nothing about being saved. It is all about being holy before God, as the NT gives us command to do.

I've never met anyone who could claim true holiness have you?

We can keep ourselves pure, or purify ourselves. The NT is clear on this. This isn't saving ourselves.

My reply to your post never mentioned Salvation or being saved but it doesn't matter.
We could not please God before Salvation, and truthfully we don't do much better afterwards either. I would like to meet a trully holy man. I'm not saying it's impossible to do. I just have never met anyone who accomplished true holiness with out pride creeping in.

As I see it everytime man thinks he has accomplished something important. Pride stands up behind him and stabs him in the back with reality. We can only seperate our selves from the flesh for short periods yet eventually the flesh always get a word in edge wise.

I see we have seriously trouble separating being saved by works, with being saved by Him, and seeing where personal holiness comes in.

This is unfortunate. But I am not surprised at all.

What is trully unfortunate is that you seem to read what you have imagined I wrote.
MB

 

[Steven2006]

I would certainly like very much to be holy. Being sinless is what holy is, isn't it? For my self being holy is being perfect and after many years of striving to be so.

I didn't mean to imply sinless perfection and we know from scripture that none is Holy as God: 1Sa 2:2 "No one is holy like the LORD, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

I have come to realize that holiness can only be had if God makes me holy. It just seems the harder I try the worse I relize I am

I agree it is not something we can simply "try" to achieve of our own. That is why I said this. "Do we not have to believe in and be open to Jesus working in our lives to be what pleases God?"

Desire to be holy? Yes of course. And yes we have to be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I just don't believe a man can ever be holy while still in his flesh.

I am not an expert, and it is a hard thought to get our head around, but I don't think we should just dismiss scripture because of that.

"1Th 4:7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness."

"Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness."

"1Pe 1:15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,"

I've met men whom I admire because they seem more holy than myself only to be disappointed, after discovering the truth that they really aren't anymore holy than anyone else.

This is why we need to look towards Jesus, not man. There is nothing wrong with respecting and trying to emulate someone important in our lives, but we can't place our confidence in them.

The only perfect man who ever lived was our Lord. Shouldn't we realize that true holiness, is for us, (in this flesh) impossible. This is not to say give up. It's just admittance of the truth.
MB

I think my other answers addresses this as well. But again I agree we can not be perfect and achieve God's perfect Holiness (1Sam 2:2).

 

[Dr. Bob]

i seek to live in BIBLICAL holiness. Not in the legalistic pharisaically-fraught man-made "pseudo-holiness" as indicated from the op.

No thank you to following man's way (that leads to death). I will stick with walking in obedience/faithfulness to the Word alone.

 

[preacher4truth]

As I read your post I thought you must be over looking the fact that no one is perfect, therefore no one is holy. There isn't even one of us who can claim holiness as something they can do.

What is trully unfortunate is that you seem to read what you have imagined I wrote. MB

So, you tell me I am overlooking things, an incorrect assumption on your part. In other words it's you who is imagining things, friend. You seem to write assumptions that were not implied nor alluded to.

There is nothing man can do but pray for the lords leading. If a man has any holiness it isn't because of his personal efforts, but because, of the work done by the Holy Spirit. God is the author and finisher of our faith.

You're correct. We must have the Lords' leading. Thus, the Lord leads me to do things that he has written in His Word. I don't need a divine revelation from God to practice holiness. Do you? Do you need a sign, friend?

If we could have cleaned our selves up, we wouldn't have needed a Savior or, His Spirit dwelling in our selves.

My reply to your post never mentioned Salvation or being saved but it doesn't matter.

Your cleaning ourselves up is an implication to Salvation and being saved, albeit a works based slavation illustration. So yeah, you did mention it.

I've never met anyone who could claim true holiness have you?

Who said we are to claim it? We are talking of practicing holiness. Please follow along and stay with us here.

We could not please God before Salvation, and truthfully we don't do much better afterwards either. I would like to meet a trully holy man. I'm not saying it's impossible to do. I just have never met anyone who accomplished true holiness with out pride creeping in.

I John 3:22 disagrees with you about pleasing God after salvation. Who cares if you ever meet a truly holy man? What good is that going to do for you? Osmosis? Quit looking at what others are not doing, and do what God has commanded you to do, i.e. practice holiness.

If practicing personal holiness were so impossible, God would have never commanded us to be holy as He is holy.

- Blessings

 

[preacher4truth]

i seek to live in BIBLICAL holiness. Not in the legalistic pharisaically-fraught man-made "pseudo-holiness" as indicated from the op.

No thank you to following man's way (that leads to death). I will stick with walking in obedience/faithfulness to the Word alone.

I agree and hope you understand those are not my rules, having come out of KJVO legalistic churches.

:tonofbricks:


Also, could you share as to what you deem Biblical holiness to which you seek to live in. I am new to reformed theology and thinking, and this would be helpful.

 

[MB]

So, you tell me I am overlooking things, an incorrect assumption on your part. In other words it's you who is imagining things, friend. You seem to write assumptions that were not implied nor alluded to.




You're correct. We must have the Lords' leading. Thus, the Lord leads me to do things that he has written in His Word. I don't need a divine revelation from God to practice holiness. Do you? Do you need a sign, friend?





Your cleaning ourselves up is an implication to Salvation and being saved, albeit a works based slavation illustration. So yeah, you did mention it.





Who said we are to claim it? We are talking of practicing holiness. Please follow along and stay with us here.



I John 3:22 disagrees with you about pleasing God after salvation. Who cares if you ever meet a truly holy man? What good is that going to do for you? Osmosis? Quit looking at what others are not doing, and do what God has commanded you to do, i.e. practice holiness.

If practicing personal holiness were so impossible, God would have never commanded us to be holy as He is holy.

- Blessings

What are you so angry about. It has to be more than what you're telling me.
MB

 

[preacher4truth]

What are you so angry about. It has to be more than what you're telling me.
MB

Let's not be emotional and accusatory. I was looking for answers, not for the "anger card" to be pulled. No one is angry over here. :saint:

I don't think you are looking at the big picture nor are you using Scripture to validate your points. I am trying to use Scriptural support in this, and am.

Can you answer my questions and/or my post, reasonably, as the other have so graciously done? That is what this forum is for.

- Thanks

 

[MB]

Let's not be emotional and accusatory. I was looking for answers, not for the "anger card" to be pulled. No one is angry over here. :saint:

My first coment wasn't meant to be taken as accusatory. It was simply the truth about what I thought at the time when I read the OP. My point wasn't to argue the matter at all but to bring up a few points I felt you must have over looked. The first one being is;

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Since it is Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith it isn't by man's efforts we aquire any holiness.
If we are bold enough to say we do it our selves or by our selves then we are taking glory for God's own work. because it is He who finishes our faith and our faith comes from His precious Word. Faith is why we seek holiness but it is always God's leading.

I don't think you are looking at the big picture nor are you using Scripture to validate your points. I am trying to use Scriptural support in this, and am.

I do not disagree that we are commanded to walk uprightly. We are also told to sin no more not to become entangled in it. but man while in his flesh is still a sinfull creature. There has never been a man except for Christ that was sinless.
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.


Holiness as described by Webster's dictionary is a perfection. There is no man with out sin.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Can you answer my questions and/or my post, reasonably, as the other have so graciously done? That is what this forum is for.

- Thanks

I'm not trying to say go on and sin because it's so hard not to. I'm saying consider the Lord in everything because He is very much an inside influence. Lean on Him instead of self to do our best. The greatest man that ever live was a God dependent man.
MB

 

[quantumfaith]

I would certainly like very much to be holy. Being sinless is what holy is, isn't it? For my self being holy is being perfect and after many years of striving to be so. I have come to realize that holiness can only be had if God makes me holy. It just seems the harder I try the worse I relize I am

IMHO, this statement is simply evidence of your maturing as a believer, a humble heart and contrite spirit developing.

"I think", in theory, we have the "authority and power" through the agency of the Holy Spirit to be Holy as a believer, but we all also know, in application, it just doesnt happen in our lives. That battle with the flesh always seems to be stronger than our desire to please our God. My hope, is that my life, "overall" will reflect the book title by Jerry Bridges, "The Pursuit of Holiness.

 

[preacher4truth]

My first coment wasn't meant to be taken as accusatory. It was simply the truth about what I thought at the time when I read the OP. My point wasn't to argue the matter at all but to bring up a few points I felt you must have over looked. The first one being is; Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Since it is Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith it isn't by man's efforts we aquire any holiness.

I agree with that verse. But when we talk about practicing holiness/separation, we are not implying helping Him finish our faith. He did all of that on His own. I certainly did not try to come across thus.

Holiness in salvation is positional holiness. Practicing holiness is progressive, not tied to working for salvation, but because of salvation. I believe this is where you are not getting what the OP was for.

If we are bold enough to say we do it our selves or by our selves then we are taking glory for God's own work. because it is He who finishes our faith and our faith comes from His precious Word. Faith is why we seek holiness but it is always God's leading.

Amen on Him beginning it and finishing it. I am asking, what is "it" you are referring to here when you say "if we are bold enough to say we do "it?" I am talking about an entirely different holiness here. Not the holiness He gives us to set us apart unto Him at salvation, but the holiness we practice as a living sacrifice..."holy, acceptable unto him, which is our reasonable service." Romans 12:1 is where this imperative is to be found. This is His will for us, by the way.

I do not disagree that we are commanded to walk uprightly. We are also told to sin no more not to become entangled in it. but man while in his flesh is still a sinfull creature. There has never been a man except for Christ that was sinless.

Holiness as described by Webster's dictionary is a perfection. There is no man with out sin

...it isn't by man's efforts we aquire any holiness.

But this is in no way, shape, or form what Biblical holiness is. Websters does not define holiness in the Biblical sense. What does hagios mean, in Scripture and what does it imply? That's where the problem lies, in the definition. Holy is not "perfect". Therefore, man can in fact, be holy, by following God, in the way the Bible interprets what holy actually is.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I like that passage, but this has nothing to do with practicing holiness. I do not deny that I am in fact, sinful.

I'm not trying to say go on and sin because it's so hard not to. I'm saying consider the Lord in everything because He is very much an inside influence. Lean on Him instead of self to do our best. The greatest man that ever live was a God dependent man.MB[/QUOTE]

I hear you. I am not leaning on self. I know you are not either, though however, this does not excuse us from practicing holiness, Hebrews 12:14. I am leaning on Him and His Word in that I may keep His commandments, to please Him. I fail, but I get up and keep on keeping on.


- Thanks for the dialogue. I enjoyed it and look to do so again.

:thumbs:

 

[TCassidy]

None of the above.

 

[glfredrick]

Preacher for truth, I believe that you have been surprised by the direction this thread has taken -- and that not just because it has become somewhat antagonistic (don't they all around here?) -- but rather because so many of us don't find that holiness is really described by a set of actions, no matter how good those actions may be.

In this regard, let me say that "Reformed" holiness is not different from "IFB" holiness, but rather that the IFB tends to (as I have experienced) focus on behaviors rather than position. in a sense, you have been taught that proper behavior will assure proper position, but that is not true at all, as exemplified over and again by Christ against the Pharisees who were "professional keepers of the Law" that sought to enact proper behaviors at every turn, yet were called "whitewashed sepulchers" by Jesus, Himself for their actions.

A desire to be set apart for God's use and to be conformed to the image and likeness of Jesus Christ will probably produce the good works you suggest, but producing the good works you suggest may not cause one to be conformed to the image and likeliness of Christ. I'm hoping that you see the distinction here, as it is a tad nuanced, but nonetheless true. With Christ, it is always relationship first, and it is our relationship with Christ that causes the positional reality that actually brings us personal holiness. In other words, we are holy because we are imputed with Christ's holiness, and then because we have His indwelling presence, we can do things that work in concert with our sanctification process.

To one stepped in the doctrinaire IFB processes, this must all seem so very "watered down" but in truth it is anything but. Rather, it is the remarkable, astounding, magnificent grace of God at work within us! Praise Him! We don't have to work out our salvation by exercises of the will as does every other religion on earth. We are saved by Christ's atonement and then set to work as His ambassadors, bringing reconciliation, love, unity in the faith, and yes, good deeds and works to this sin-dead world.