Women Preachers Challenge

[preachinjesus]

Regardless if the thread got locked up, my challenge still stands:

I would enjoy seeing how anyone supporting the egalitarian position can defend their position biblically. I've asked the entire thread and never got a qualified answer.

So the challenge is still out there. I'll anticipate good conversation. :type:

 

[BobinKy]

Give it a rest. The thread was locked for a reason. Enough has been said. Obey the authority of our moderators and administrators.

...Bob

 

[annsni]

Give it a rest. The thread was locked for a reason. Enough has been said. Obey the authority of our moderators and administrators.

...Bob

The moderators and administrators haven't said not to post any more about this. I believe it had to do with thread length?

But this has been an ongoing discussion here on BB and I'm sure it will continue. I do not see any reason this thread cannot or will not continue as always, under the watchful eyes of the administrative staff here at BB.

 

[preachinjesus]

Give it a rest. The thread was locked for a reason. Enough has been said. Obey the authority of our moderators and administrators.

Well first of all moderators aren't in authority over me. Secondly, the previous thread was 18 pages long. That is usually why things get shut down around here. Thirdly (I think that's a word), there are plenty of examples of a new thread started after a long thread is shut to validate this discussion.

Finally, listen if you don't want to make a biblical case for your position that's fine. I wouldn't want to try to make the biblical case for egalitarianism, it isn't there. That said I replied to your John 20 point completely but never got to hear your response.

The reality is that of the few people advocating the egalitarian position around here none of them have offered a reasonable biblical basis for it. They talk around the issues. My challenge still stands.

 

[Baptist Believer]

The reality is that of the few people advocating the egalitarian position around here none of them have offered a reasonable biblical basis for it. They talk around the issues. My challenge still stands.

Couple of problems:

1.) You speak of "the egalitarian position" as if there is only one consistent viewpoint that allows "woman preachers".

2.) I don't know what you mean by "woman preachers." Perhaps you are referring to women as pastors, but that's quite a different thing than being a preacher. Phillip had four daughters who were know for their preaching (Acts 21:9), so I hope you aren't advocating that women should not ever preach.

3.) The theological treatment that definitively changed my perspective on this issue is found in the book, "Pauline Theology: Ministry and Society" by E. Earle Ellis. Chapter 3, "Paul and the Eschatological Woman," makes a convincing argument (at least to me) that Paul's prohibitions against "women having authority" are actually about "wives having authority" over their husbands. There is the beginning of a discussion regarding the subject here, although Bible-boy and I got too busy to continue.

4.) I don't have the time or energy to devote the appropriate time to this discussion, but since you knew Earle, I imagine you already knew there is a biblically-conservative rationale for supporting women who follow their God-given calling to vocational ministry.

 

[preachinjesus]

1.) You speak of "the egalitarian position" as if there is only one consistent viewpoint that allows "woman preachers".

Well to begin I don't have a problem with women preachers. My point, which is clearly articulated in the previous thread, is that no one has provided sufficient biblical basis for woman occupying positions of authority within the local church. There are two offices (which I guess was a confusing term) within the local church: pastor and deacon.

I am being fairly general in my application of the term. Several in the other thread have made rather far reaching statements and fairly superfluous Scriptural allusions about the nature of female authority in the local church. I am simply asking them to give us a better argument. (Because there is a good biblical argument out there. I'd love to engage it from someone proposing their position.)

2.) I don't know what you mean by "woman preachers." Perhaps you are referring to women as pastors, but that's quite a different thing than being a preacher. Phillip had four daughters who were know for their preaching (Acts 21:9), so I hope you aren't advocating that women should not ever preach.

Oh wait you're reading the title to my thread....yeah, here's the thing it was taken from the title to Salty's thread to add continuation. Perhaps a better title would be "women in positions of authority within the local New Testament church challenge" (a bit wordy but ya know...)

I don't have a problem with women preachers.

3.) The theological treatment that definitively changed my perspective on this issue is found in the book, "Pauline Theology: Ministry and Society" by E. Earle Ellis. Chapter 3, "Paul and the Eschatological Woman," makes a convincing argument (at least to me) that Paul's prohibitions against "women having authority" are actually about "wives having authority" over their husbands. There is the beginning of a discussion regarding the subject here, although Bible-boy and I got too busy to continue.

4.) I don't have the time or energy to devote the appropriate time to this discussion, but since you knew Earle, I imagine you already knew there is a biblically-conservative rationale for supporting women who follow their God-given calling to vocational ministry.

Yeah I am aware of Earle's texts and discussed this with him. (Though at the time I was far more interested on his application of Hebrew Midrash in the New Testament texts) I appreciate Dr. Ellis and his ministry, though disagree with him on many issues. On this issue we somewhat disagree.

My challenge to anyone from the previous thread is to show me biblically how to make the argument for women in positions of authority within the local church.

This challenge has not been met.:saint:

 

[Salty]

Well first of all moderators aren't in authority over me. ...

yes they are - you agreed to the rules of BB when you signed up

 

[Allelujah77]

2.) I don't know what you mean by "woman preachers." Perhaps you are referring to women as pastors, but that's quite a different thing than being a preacher. Phillip had four daughters who were know for their preaching (Acts 21:9), so I hope you aren't advocating that women should not ever preach.

Ok, first I have a question for you... what translation did you use?
Also in the KJV it says this "And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy."
So it does not say that they were know for their preaching... now if you are gonna argue that the greek says otherwise... then here is the greek.

G4395
προφητεύω
prophēteuō
prof-ate-yoo'-o
From G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: - prophesy.

So I guess my next question would be... where did you get the word preaching from?

I purely am just wondering.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Quote:
Joel 2:28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Quote:
ACT 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
*

ACT 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
*

ACT 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy ...

The Bible says women will prophesy, preach. Are you who are opposed to women preaching saying the Bible is wrong?


To prophesy means to preach. Dictionary.com gives the following definitions:

to speak as a mediator between god and humankind or in God's stead.

Archaic . to teach religious subjects.

 

[TCGreek]

These days I'm between the comp and egal position.

 

[BobinKy]

The moderators and administrators haven't said not to post any more about this. I believe it had to do with thread length?

But this has been an ongoing discussion here on BB and I'm sure it will continue. I do not see any reason this thread cannot or will not continue as always, under the watchful eyes of the administrative staff here at BB.

Well, Ann, I guess you are right . . . about the thread coming up again. :tonofbricks:

I've got to learn not to click on some of these threads! :BangHead:

Are the Wildcats on yet?

...Bob

 

[Allan]

The Bible says women will prophesy, preach. Are you who are opposed to women preaching saying the Bible is wrong?


To prophesy means to preach. Dictionary.com gives the following definitions:

to speak as a mediator between god and humankind or in God's stead.

Archaic . to teach religious subjects.

A prophet and a pastor/elder are biblically distinguished from one another.
A prophet declares God direct revelation to them, to a person or people, but they do not teach it.


additionally..
Philips daughters were prophetesses NOT pastors. Again scripture distinguishes between the two offices.

 

[Allan]

These days I'm between the comp and egal position.

What is a "comp"?

When I see that abbreviation I always think of 'computer'

 

[The Archangel]

The Bible says women will prophesy, preach. Are you who are opposed to women preaching saying the Bible is wrong?


To prophesy means to preach. Dictionary.com gives the following definitions:

to speak as a mediator between god and humankind or in God's stead.

Archaic . to teach religious subjects.

One problem I see here is that Peter never intended these verses from Joel to be prescriptive.

Peter is saying that the last days are now here and that the Spirit is poured out on, I think, all believers. This is a significant change from the Old Testament where only certain people had the Spirit and it was only temporary (for the most part).

Also, I'm troubled by your defining of "prophesy" by a dictionary rather than the biblical usage. The semantic range of the word can mean what you state...although it doesn't have to. The meaning, as in 99.9% of the cases, is determined by usage, not lexicon.

In this case, the word clearly means a wider outpouring of the Spirit into the New Testament church (ie. every believer) than Old Testament Israel.

What is more, Paul's text in 1 Timothy 2:12ff is, without a doubt, prescriptive.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[annsni]

What is a "comp"?

When I see that abbreviation I always think of 'computer'

I'm guessing he's saying that he's between the complimentarian and egalitarian camps.

 

[Allan]

I'm guessing he's saying that he's between the complimentarian and egalitarian camps.

Ah.. thanks

 

[Jerome]

what translation did you use? . . .in the KJV it says. . .

From the conservative New American Standard Bible:

Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses.

The NASB cross-references this verse to Acts 13:1:

Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Adam Clarke says that the women were probably:

teachers in the Church: for we have already seen that this is a frequent meaning of the word prophesy

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professor A. T. Robertson:

Philip had the honour of having in his home four virgin daughters with the gift of prophecy which was not necessarily predicting events, though that was done as by Agabus here. It was more than ordinary preaching (cf. 19:6) and was put by Paul above the other gifts like tongues (I Co. 14:1-33). The prophecy of Joel (2:28f.) about their sons and daughters prophesying is quoted by Peter and applied to the events on the day of Pentecost (Ac. 2:17). Paul in I Co. 11:5 gives directions about praying and prophesying by the women (apparently in public worship) with the head uncovered and sharply requires the head covering, though not forbidding the praying and prophesying. With this must be compared his demand for silence by the women in I Co. 14:34-40; I Ti. 2:8-15 which it is not easy to reconcile. One wonders if there was not something known to Paul about special conditions in Corinth and Ephesus that he has not told.

"Special conditions" in Corinth and Ephesus demanded women's silence?
Hmmm.

 

[TCGreek]

What is a "comp"?

When I see that abbreviation I always think of 'computer'

Allan,

Complementarianism vs Egalitarianism. And yeah, I'm in the middle somewhere. Not a bad place to be. :thumbs:

 

[Allelujah77]

The Bible says women will prophesy, preach. Are you who are opposed to women preaching saying the Bible is wrong?


To prophesy means to preach. Dictionary.com gives the following definitions:

to speak as a mediator between god and humankind or in God's stead.

Archaic . to teach religious subjects.

How can you use dictionary.com.... and not the original greek?
In the original greek that's not what it means... sorry.

 

[RAdam]

People act as if the bible just all of the sudden changed the definition of prophet when we get to the NT. What is a prophet? One who speaks to people what God has directly revealed to him/her. Isaiah didn't study the bible and then teach what He studied to people. He received direct revelation from God. Same with Daniel and the other prophets. A preacher is not necessarily a prophet. He could be. Paul certainly prophesied of things. So did Peter. So did John. But we have no record of Timothy prophesying of anything. A prophet is not necessarily a preacher.

Prophesying and preaching are two different things. God might bless a person to prophesy but not give that person the gift to be an elder/bishop. The 4 gifts from Ephesians 4 don't have to be mutually exclusive, but they can be. God blessing a woman to prophesy doesn't mean He calls them to be pastors/elders/bishops.