Incorrect/Correct Doctrine

[Benjamin]

The typical Calvinist true heart and mind on the matters of evangelism is clearly exposed in this tread. As usual their distaste for the even the words “great commission” is easily read between the lines… And why one who says they rejoice at the gospel would consider the great commission a “burden” is beyond me.

Another issue: Can one be responsible for another going to hell? Well, my thought is that if a Calvinist doesn’t respond in obedience to the great commission because of his warped deterministic theological persuasion and freely chosen heart felt non-acceptance in free will…I believe God would send someone else (probably a non-Cal this time) because no man has or will have an excuse on judgment day for not accepting the truth of his own free will through that which God will reveal to him. That’s how God’s judgment ways work, Deut 32:4.

Further, I believe the same responsibility goes for the refusal to respond to God’s call freely, because of love of the truth shown to them by God; there is a purpose and a need for one’s free will response (God’s righteous and true judgment as per Deut 32:4). It will be difficult for these others who believe that they had to be pre-determinately forced to respond because of their unwillingness, hate and despising what has been revealed through God’s love. Why, because God looks at the heart, not excuses. I believe they will be held responsible for not responding freely, regardless of proclaiming a doctrinal preference toward determinism as an excuse not to have to.
:type:

 

[DHK]

To quote me again:
It is impossible to lead one of the elect astray so as to cause them to perish eternally.

Are you God? Do you know who the elect are? Do you just assume that those who have never heard the gospel in (let's say) India, China, Iran, etc., are not the elect because you have avoided your responsibility in carrying out the Great Commission. William Carey's church tried to tell him that. I am glad he didn't listen to such erroneous teaching.

Is your 'Great Commission' actually about a 'sheep-feeding process'? Or do you really mean a 'sheep-making process'?

The actual words of the Great Commission start out: "Go and make disciples." Do you make disciples of those in your church, or do they simply remain sheep blindly following one another. Do you know the characteristics of sheep? "All we like sheep have gone astray..."

Again, the true 'Great Commission' given DIRECTLY to the Church by the apostle to the gentiles:

The Great Commission is stated in every gospel and in the Book of Acts, though in different words. Isn't that important enough for you to sit up and take note of it? We are to be witnesses at the very least.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:13-15)

It is their responsibility to call upon his name.
It is your responsibility to go that they have the message to make that decision. "How shall hear without a preacher? How shall they preach, except they be sent?"
Their blood will be upon your hands if you fail to warn the wicked of their ways--if you fail to at least give them the witness of Christ that they may make a choice to believe. This is what the Bible teaches. We are to be witnesses for Him.

Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

Yes, one verse out of many. If that is all you do you have failed in your ministry. Part of feeding is discipling. Part of discipling is going; going into all the world and preaching the gospel to those who have never heard it before.

No, you are compelling me; from a passage that you have deemed to be 'The Great Commission' of the Church, and then you have the audacity to accuse me of being responsible for souls burning in hell because I don't see the passage the way you do. That is a horrendous lie.

I did not put the Great Commission in the Bible, the Holy Spirit of God did; take up your argument with Him. Like I mentioned, it is in every gospel and in the book of Acts as well as in Romans 10 which I quoted to you. We cannot escape these basic truths. If we neglect our obligation to witness to others we will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give account for this tremendous failure. Their blood will be upon our hands.

No, you are placing the burden on me; and you are altering the scriptures to make them fit your great commission.

Quoting Scripture is not altering it.
Not believing it is a separate matter.

Do you also teach this horrendous lie to the flock that you
tend?

To call the commands of Christ a lie is a serious accusation.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:8)

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:13-15)

For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! (1 Corinthians 9:16)

 

[SRBooe]

I guess, despite posts that imply the contrary, no all who accept the doctrine of election feel the same way on all points. By the same token, just because a person who holds to a certain view of Calvin's teachings speaks for all who hold to Calvin's teaching.

Again, people use labels and thereby insult others with broad statements that are not accurate.

It is a shame, really.

I have to correct myself on a regular basis for my tendency to do the same thing.

 

[Old Union Brother]

I guess, despite posts that imply the contrary, no all who accept the doctrine of election feel the same way on all points. By the same token, just because a person who holds to a certain view of Calvin's teachings speaks for all who hold to Calvin's teaching.

Again, people use labels and thereby insult others with broad statements that are not accurate.

It is a shame, really.

I have to correct myself on a regular basis for my tendency to do the same thing.

Amen :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Peace and prayers

Jeff

 

[David Lamb]

I guess, despite posts that imply the contrary, no all who accept the doctrine of election feel the same way on all points. By the same token, just because a person who holds to a certain view of Calvin's teachings speaks for all who hold to Calvin's teaching.

I agree. Many things have been attributed to "Calvinism" which are in fact hypercalvinism. An example is the idea that Calvinists have a distaste even for the words, "Great Commission" and consider that commission a burden.

Well, I am a Calvinist, and I know many other Calvinists, and neither I nor they would hold to such ideas.

Let me ask, therefore, if there is anyone among the members of this board who holds the Greast Commission in such low esteem.

 

[kyredneck]

....would consider the great commission a “burden” is beyond me.....

....a distaste even for the words, "Great Commission" and consider that commission a burden......

I don't know if these misrepresentations of yours are deliberate or not, I give the benefit of a doubt.

The 'burden' I speak of is the lie that God's Saints can 'lead' another to hell.

Even under the harsh schoolmaster of the law the Hebrew had no such burden placed upon them.

 

[DHK]

Does this 'sphere of influence' include every individual that you come into contact with? What's the scriptural protocol for winning souls for Christ? How/when do you know that you've done enough? When do/can you take a break or relax from it?

If your neighbor is not saved and you are would it be your obligation to witness to him?
If you lived right by him and after 30 years he dies unsaved, after never hearing the gospel from you, goes to hell, would not the Lord hold you--his neighbor--the one who could have given him the message of salvation accountable for his eternal destiny?

When the lawyer tempted Jesus asking him "And who is my neighbor?" What did Jesus answer? He gave the parable of the Good Samaritan.
Then how did he apply it?
We are accountable to give the gospel to those with whom we meet. In that indirect sense we are accountable for their eternal destiny, though it is they that must make the decision whether or not to trust Christ as Savior.

The Lord has still commanded us to spread the gospel into the uttermost parts of the world as well. Every believer is a missionary.

Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. (Luke 10:36-37)

In other words all that fall into our hemisphere of contact are our neighbors, and in this vast world of technology our world gets smaller all the time.

 

[HankD]

Are we starting with the wrong premise?

Man responsibilty first then God?

The first premise: Salvation is of the Lord.

Second premise: Man is allowed to participate in the harvest.

Everyone can/must pray:

Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.​

The harvest and its results are the Lord's.​

HankD​

 

[kyredneck]

Does this 'sphere of influence' include every individual that you come into contact with? What's the scriptural protocol for winning souls for Christ? How/when do you know that you've done enough? When do/can you take a break or relax from it?

These questions are rhetorical, intended to make those finite mortals who [think they] believe that it is within their power to have an infinite impact upon another mortal, to stop and consider the full implications of what they say they believe. Our finite minds are not even capable of comprehending infinity, eternity, timelessness. However, IF one were to actually ever fully grasp that concept of eternity, and IF they really, really, really believed that the eternity of others depended upon them, then there would be absolutely no justification for any slackness or failure on their part, ever. Anything short of the strictest of austerity in every area of one's life for the performance of this duty would be unacceptable.

That's why I say that they don't really, really, really believe that. They just think that they do.

 

[DHK]

These questions are rhetorical, intended to make those finite mortals who [think they] believe that it is within their power to have an infinite impact upon another mortal, to stop and consider the full implications of what they say they believe. Our finite minds are not even capable of comprehending infinity, eternity, timelessness. However, IF one were to actually ever fully grasp that concept of eternity, and IF they really, really, really believed that the eternity of others depended upon them, then there would be absolutely no justification for any slackness or failure on their part, ever. Anything short of the strictest of austerity in every area of one's life for the performance of this duty would be unacceptable.

That's why I say that they don't really, really, really believe that. They just think that they do.

There are many things in the bible I cannot fully grasp, including the sovereignty of God. But there are simple commands of Christ throughout the Bible that I do grasp, such as the Great Commission, and other similar commands, and by faith endeavor to obey them. Understanding is not always key. Obedience is.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36)

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:3)

 

[David Lamb]

I don't know if these misrepresentations of yours are deliberate or not, I give the benefit of a doubt.

The 'burden' I speak of is the lie that God's Saints can 'lead' another to hell.

Even under the harsh schoolmaster of the law the Hebrew had no such burden placed upon them.

Kyredneck, could you explain, because you've got me confused?

In my post, I had said things have been attributed in this thread to "Calvinism" which are in fact hypercalvinism. I gave the example that Benjamin had said that that Calvinists have a distaste even for the words, "Great Commission" and consider that commission a burden.

Now you have replied, quoting this extract from the example I gave in my post:
.......a distaste even for the words, "Great Commission" and consider that commission a burden.

Then you wrote:

I don't know if these misrepresentations of yours are deliberate or not, I give the benefit of a doubt.

What misrepresentations? Benjamin did write those words, which I then quoted as an example of people confusing Calvinism with hypercalvism. How is that a misrepresentation? I think you must have misunderstood what I meant, or, more likely, I've misunderstood you.

 

[webdog]

Are we starting with the wrong premise?

Man responsibilty first then God?

The first premise: Salvation is of the Lord.

Second premise: Man is allowed to participate in the harvest.

Everyone can/must pray:

Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.​

The harvest and its results are the Lord's.​

HankD​

All true...but it still does not dismiss man's responsibility in God's sovereign design.

 

[kyredneck]

Kyredneck, could you explain, because you've got me confused?

In my post, I had said things have been attributed in this thread to "Calvinism" which are in fact hypercalvinism. I gave the example that Benjamin had said that that Calvinists have a distaste even for the words, "Great Commission" and consider that commission a burden.

Now you have replied, quoting this extract from the example I gave in my post:
.......a distaste even for the words, "Great Commission" and consider that commission a burden.

Then you wrote:



What misrepresentations? Benjamin did write those words, which I then quoted as an example of people confusing Calvinism with hypercalvism. How is that a misrepresentation? I think you must have misunderstood what I meant, or, more likely, I've misunderstood you.

If I misrepresented your post it was unintentional and I apologize.

 

[kyredneck]

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

FWIW, I submit this repost concerning 'The Great Commission':

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

This is 'the great commission' as some call it, which He gave to ' the eleven' (Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles was absent).

Luke records it this way:

But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8

Take note Christ said, 'ye shall' receive power, 'ye shall' be my witnesses unto the end of the earth. Period. He didn't say I want you to try to do it, He told them that they indeed would do it. Period.

In the very next chapter Luke records (paraphrase mine):

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [RECEIVED POWER].......
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven [UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH].
6 .........every man heard them speaking in his own language [WITNESSES OF CHRIST]. Acts 2

Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. Acts 2:9-11 [...Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.... Acts 1:8]

What do you think that those 'Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven' in Acts 2 did when they all went back home from the feast of Pentecost, after hearing and believing the gospel and themselves having received power from the Holy Spirit?

You can bet they didn't keep that 'lamp under the bushel'. No, they 'put it on the stand' so that 'it shined unto all that are in the house'. They preached the gospel in all those nations under heaven that they were from. The day of Pentecost was literally in every sense a 'gospel bomb'.

The 'great commission' as many call it, given to those 'eleven', was accomplished on the day of Pentecost.

Paul verifies this here:

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

and here:

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1:23

and here:

Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16:25-26

You ever wonder why Peter was called onto the carpet in Acts 11 for preaching to Cornelius, a Gentile? I'll tell you why. Those 'eleven', to whom 'the great commission' as many call it was given, clearly understood that they were still operating under the confines of Mt 10 'Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Why would Christ want them, the eleven, to continue under the dictate of Mt 10 with 'the great commission' as many call it? Because the gospel was to 'the Jew first', and for good reason. There was a very serious time line involved for every Jew of 'that generation' alive on the planet. The urgency of the message to the Jew was 'Save yourselves from this crooked generation' (Acts 2), and 'Every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people' (Acts 3).

Consider what was coming upon 'that generation':

upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23:35,36

God made sure that every Jew on earth was given the chance to 'hearken to that prophet' before the wrath came. All the Jews of that generation on earth heard the gospel, and were given the chance to repent and avoid the wrath and the curses of the OT that were to come on the nation of Israel. Therein lies the fulfillment of 'the great commission' as many call it.

Many futurists, especially those of the pre-mil persuasion, totally miss the magnitude of the significance of the events of 'that generation', and woefully misapply passages to the covenant of grace that pertain only to 'that generation'

 

[DHK]

Consider what was coming upon 'that generation':

upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23:35,36

God made sure that every Jew on earth was given the chance to 'hearken to that prophet' before the wrath came. All the Jews of that generation on earth heard the gospel, and were given the chance to repent and avoid the wrath and the curses of the OT that were to come on the nation of Israel. Therein lies the fulfillment of 'the great commission' as many call it.

Many futurists, especially those of the pre-mil persuasion, totally miss the magnitude of the significance of the events of 'that generation', and woefully misapply passages to the covenant of grace that pertain only to 'that generation'

And what came upon that generation?
It was the destruction of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, and once again the dispersion of the Jews that would not again gather together as a nation until almost 2000 years later in 1948.
But that was in 70 A.D. under the leadership of the Roman General Titus.

John wrote his gospel in 90 A.D., 20 years after that event. John said:

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. (John 15:16)
--Quoting the words of Jesus, and knowing at the same time that the Temple had been destroyed, he writes that he has chosen you to go and bring forth fruit. The command to go is still there.

To put it in context look at the two previous verses:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. (John 15:13-14)

Christ laid down his life: not just for his disciples, but for all of us.
He calls not just his disciples friends, but all who keeps his commands.
These verses are applicable to all who will apply them to their own lives.
And that includes going and bringing forth fruit.

 

[kyredneck]

And what came upon that generation?
It was the destruction of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, and once again the dispersion of the Jews that would not again gather together as a nation until almost 2000 years later in 1948.
But that was in 70 A.D. under the leadership of the Roman General Titus.

John wrote his gospel in 90 A.D., 20 years after that event. John said:

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. (John 15:16)
--Quoting the words of Jesus, and knowing at the same time that the Temple had been destroyed, he writes that he has chosen you to go and bring forth fruit. The command to go is still there.

To put it in context look at the two previous verses:
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. (John 15:13-14)

Christ laid down his life: not just for his disciples, but for all of us.
He calls not just his disciples friends, but all who keeps his commands.
These verses are applicable to all who will apply them to their own lives.
And that includes going and bringing forth fruit.

DHK, yes, John faithfully recorded what Christ said to them BEFORE the dectruction of Jerusalem. I don't get your point.

 

[DHK]

DHK, yes, John faithfully recorded what Christ said to them BEFORE the dectruction of Jerusalem. I don't get your point.

John wrote His gospel in 90 A.D. AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem.
His epistles are dated around the same time.
The book of Revelation is dated close to 98 A.D.
Where do you get the idea that he wrote before 70 A.D.?

Just because Jesus said those words before John recorded them, doesn't invalidate that John already knew about the destruction of Jerusalem. It had come and gone. The entire purpose of John's gospel would have been fruitless if your theology is correct. But yet, John's purpose is:

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31)
--In the light of the destruction of Jerusalem what could these words possibly mean?

 

[HankD]

All true...but it still does not dismiss man's responsibility in God's sovereign design.

Amen.

HankD

 

[Tom Butler]

I don't think any Calvinist will deny human responsibility. God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are not mutually exclusive.

Here's the scripture passage I appeal to:

Acts 2:23 " ....this Man, delivered over by the pre-determined plan and foreknowledge of God, YOU nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death..."

This is the age-old question: How can God be sovereign, and his decrees are certain to be done, and man still be responsible? I'm not sure I can explain it even to my own satisfaction, but the scripture clearly says both are true. The rest of you will have to get in line when we come face to face with the Lord Jesus. I plan to spend quite some time with the Lord getting all my questions answered, so it might take a while.

We do have scripture which says the Lord has done all that is necessary to bring men to salvation. That includes, of course, the atonement by Christ on the Cross, the work of the Holy Spirit in opening the mind, convicting of sin, drawing and regeneration. He has also provided the gifts of repentance and faith.

This is true salvation by grace. God has provided the sacrifice, and his grace comprehends the means by which people are saved.

 

[Winman]

I believe we are responsible to tell others about Christ.

Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Paul certainly seemed to feel responsible to tell others of Christ.

Boy, this goes back to the beginning.

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Are we our brother's keeper? I think we are. There is the old story of the bridge being out, should we try to stop people from driving on the bridge and plunging to their death? I think we should.

That said, one of my biggest failings has been sharing the gospel. I have told people the gospel, but not nearly as much or often as I should.