Is scripture true, or does it contradict?

[ituttut]

What can we discern from scripture below, when contrasting James in writing to the twelve tribes, and Paul to Gentiles with the understanding that all today are Gentiles?


James speaks to the twelve tribes: James 2:23,24, "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."


Paul speaks to the Gentiles: II Timothy 1:8-12, " Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11. Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Try to let scripture interpret itself.

 

[BobinKy]

I believe scripture is true.

I hope you enjoy this music: I Know Whom I Have Believed.

...Bob

 

[SolaSaint]

This is an age old apparent difficulty within Scripture. I seems as though James is making works the main object of our faith and Paul making faith the main. Obviously the both complement each other for James never states works alone save us but that works are the product of faith and without them there's no proof of faith. James in Acts 15 is in agreement with Paul as they send out those who took letters to those who were perverting the Gospel with the requirement of works. As always Scripture supports and confirms itself in its entirety.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is an age old apparent difficulty within Scripture. I seems as though James is making works the main object of our faith and Paul making faith the main. Obviously the both complement each other for James never states works alone save us but that works are the product of faith and without them there's no proof of faith. James in Acts 15 is in agreement with Paul as they send out those who took letters to those who were perverting the Gospel with the requirement of works. As always Scripture supports and confirms itself in its entirety.

Rick, you look almost exactly like Spurgeon!

 

[Jim1999]

Scripture is as true as you interpret it.

Sometimes we miss the boat.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[SolaSaint]

Jim,

I would have to disagree, Scripture is always true no matter how we interpret. I have heard many incorrect interpretations. I hope I didn't misunderstand your post.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Scripture is always true no matter how we interpret. I have heard many incorrect interpretations.

I agree. Some read to find contradiction. Some read for edification of self to justify self. Others read to seek the deeper truths of God.

Bottom line scripture does not contradict its self. God is not the author of confusion.

A fellow servant in Christ

Jeff

 

[Jim1999]

Some can't read what is written.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Old Union Brother]

or understand what they read.


Jeff

 

[Jim1999]

Scripture is as true as you interpret it.

Sometimes we miss the boat.
----------------------------------------

Try it again,,,lol

Cheers,

Jim

 

[ituttut]

I believe scripture is true.

I hope you enjoy this music: I Know Whom I Have Believed.

...Bob

Thank you for sharing melody that is in your heart.

 

[quantumfaith]

Scripture is as true as you interpret it.

Sometimes we miss the boat.

Cheers,

Jim

Thank you so much Jim for that honesty. Something we ALL need to be reminded of from time to time.

 

[ituttut]

This is an age old apparent difficulty within Scripture. I seems as though James is making works the main object of our faith and Paul making faith the main. Obviously the both complement each other for James never states works alone save us but that works are the product of faith and without them there's no proof of faith. James in Acts 15 is in agreement with Paul as they send out those who took letters to those who were perverting the Gospel with the requirement of works. As always Scripture supports and confirms itself in its entirety.

SolaSaint I certainly agree that Scripture supports and confirms itself. And I also agree it is very difficult, in many instances to determine what scripture tells us. In this particular case I really don't see how we can say, this seems to be one of the best solutions, when James gives positive proof of how he, and all of Israel are justified. If we leave it as is then there still will remain a contradiction.

I see you go to Acts 15, and I know you are right in this observation also. But then you say, " James never states works alone save us" when James tells us in his book, chapter 2:24, this very thing, viz. by our "works" we are justified. Also he tells us then again in Acts 15, as he, Peter, John, and the rest in Jerusalem shake hands with Paul, Barnabas, and probably Titus saying they will only go to the circumcised.

Paul, by revelation went to Jerusalem as the troublers from the Apostolic church in Jerusalem were telling the Gentiles they must do, and believe as the circumcised. Christ Jesus from heaven had appointed Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentile for a purpose. For that purpose Paul was sent to Jerusalem to convince the apostolic church the Gentile is not to be plied with erroneous information as to their salvation.Understanding of this will remove the contradictions in the verses discussed.

 

[ituttut]

Scripture is as true as you interpret it.

Sometimes we miss the boat.

Cheers,

Jim

lA true observation.

 

[ituttut]

Scripture is as true as you interpret it.

Sometimes we miss the boat.
----------------------------------------

Try it again,,,lol

Cheers,

Jim

Still agree. The boat did float. Only eight souls were saved. Just gotta' believe, as we live.

 

[canadyjd]

.
James speaks to the twelve tribes: James 2:23,24, "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."


Paul speaks to the Gentiles: II Timothy 1:8-12, " Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11. Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Try to let scripture interpret itself.

All words have meaning in context. Depending on the context, the same words can have different meanings.

When Paul speaks of "justification", he is speaking of a forensic (legal) justification in a court of law (God's court). God justifies (declares us innocent) based on our faith in Jesus Christ without regard for our works.

When James speaks of "justification", he is referring to "validation". What validates a person's faith is what he does.

Therefore, Paul can say a man is justified (declared innocent in God's court) by faith in Jesus alone without any works and James can say a man is justified (validating his faith in Jesus) by the works that he does...

...and there is no contradiction.

peace to youraying:

 

[ituttut]

All words have meaning in context. Depending on the context, the same words can have different meanings.

When Paul speaks of "justification", he is speaking of a forensic (legal) justification in a court of law (God's court). God justifies (declares us innocent) based on our faith in Jesus Christ without regard for our works.

Thanks for agreeing with me canadyjd. We today do not have to do works. You did good by getting back into context.

When James speaks of "justification", he is referring to "validation". What validates a person's faith is what he does.

I agree for James was told he must include works to be justified. Keeping in context, and believing that James and Paul agree, then are you saying you must do the same as James (do works) to be justified?

Therefore, Paul can say a man is justified (declared innocent in God's court) by faith in Jesus alone without any works and James can say a man is justified (validating his faith in Jesus) by the works that he does...

...And there is no contradiction.

You said a mouthful, but I don't believe you understand what you just said. Are you not agreeing with me? James says one thing to the twelve tribes, and Paul says another to Gentile?

You are digging a hole you can't get out of, if you stay on this course. You try to have James and Paul agree as to justification of God's chosen people that He made covenant with, and Gentiles that He never asked.

 

[canadyjd]

....Keeping in context, and believing that James and Paul agree, then are you saying you must do the same as James (do works) to be justified?

I am agreeing with scripture that the things you do validate (justify) your profession of faith which both Paul and James profess in various passages.

James says one thing to the twelve tribes, and Paul says another to Gentile?.... You are digging a hole you can't get out of, if you stay on this course. You try to have James and Paul agree as to justification of God's chosen people that He made covenant with, and Gentiles that He never asked.

I'm not sure your point, unless you are attempting to use these passages to make a case for a separate future for the Jews and the church.

I do not believe scripture supports that idea.

peace to youraying:

 

[ituttut]

I am agreeing with scripture that the things you do validate (justify) your profession of faith which both Paul and James profess in various passages.

[/QUOTE]Thanks for your reply canadyid. I do see you are agreeing with scripture, i.e. James validates his justification must include works linked with his faith. This is all that I am saying, and I believe that is what you are showing, whether intentional or not.

The scriptures under discussion are not meant to be in harmony as presented. God justifies sinners as he divided them.

I'm not sure your point, unless you are attempting to use these passages to make a case for a separate future for the Jews and the church.
I do not believe scripture supports that idea.

At this juncture I'll not address this issue, as it will only confuse what is before us, viz. how God says He justifies, as we live.

 

[canadyjd]

Originally Posted by ituttut

The scriptures under discussion are not meant to be in harmony as presented. God justifies sinners as he divided them.

. If you are suggesting that God "justifies" Jews in a manner differently than Christians are "justified", then I disagree.

I do believe the passages mentioned can easily be harmonized if one understands the context of Paul's use of the word "justified" is different from the context of James' usage.

Both usages of the word apply to Christians who have accepted Christ by faith. Whether they are Jew or Gentile makes no difference.

peace to youraying: