Is scripture true, or does it contradict?

[ituttut]

If you are suggesting that God "justifies" Jews in a manner differently than Christians are "justified", then I disagree.

Canady, you are in unison with so very many Christians. As I read His Word, I find scripture that can make plain verses that do contradict. There is a verse that makes very plain what we are discussing. Please look again at Romans 3:30, "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."

I do believe the passages mentioned can easily be harmonized if one understands the context of Paul's use of the word "justified" is different from the context of James' usage.


Both usages of the word apply to Christians who have accepted Christ by faith. Whether they are Jew or Gentile makes no difference.

peace to youraying:

I agree by faith we believe there is a God, and we believe Him. However today we cannot be in the Body of Christ if it is not through faith. By faith needs something else to go with it. We have that something else, and it is Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 11 can help us to see by faith with Works, regardless of who they are - Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and all the rest. By faith, through their own efforts (works) they were justified. And if you can receive it, this is the way James was justified. Here again we should take note of to whom James is writing, which tells us he is not writing to us today. We have a heavenly appointed apostle, which is hard for many to come to grips with. And should we wish to go to another apostle for his advice, I believe it best to visit once more as you study what Peter has to say about the gospel given to Paul in II Peter 3:15-16.

 

[canadyjd]

.... Please look again at Romans 3:30, "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." I agree by faith we believe there is a God, and we believe Him. However today we cannot be in the Body of Christ if it is not through faith. By faith needs something else to go with it. We have that something else, and it is Jesus Christ....

I really don't see the difference between "by faith" and "through faith".

Are you suggesting Jewish Christians must have works accompany their faith to be saved? But that Gentile Christians don't need works added to their faith to be saved? Are you saying Jews are saved in one manner, but Gentiles are saved in another?
Is that what you are saying?

What, then, is the outcome? Are Jewish Christians not part of the body of Christ?

peace to youraying:

 

[ituttut]

Part 1 of 2 to canady

. If you are suggesting that God "justifies" Jews in a manner differently than Christians are "justified", then I disagree.

As we are of faith we should accept scripture that is plain, which Romans 3:30 is. If we cannot see it, doesn't render it invalid. Evidently there are few who do see the difference. Peter tells us what Crest Jesus revealed to Paul is hard to understand.

I believe the difficulty comes from not understanding the foreknowledge of God. Man gets confused when reading such as this, and brushes it aside as contradiction, or Paul not knowing what he is talking about. In two verses earlier (28,29) we find "herefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Many can't see, and don't want to see that our God is a God of division. We see it in the very first verse of the Bible, and can see it all the way through, and this is one example. We are not, and cannot be Jews if we are heathen (Gentiles). So in order for God to justify ALL, He tells us how He does it. I do not mean to try and confuse, for I know it is confusing until one understands the gospel preached by Paul, which he tells us Christ Jesus revealed to him.

We Baptists say we believe Paul, so here is a chance to do so.

 

[ituttut]

Part 2 of 2 to canady

Originally Posted by canadyjd]I do believe the passages mentioned can easily be harmonized if one understands the context of Paul's use of the word "justified" is different from the context of James' usage.

Both usages of the word apply to Christians who have accepted Christ by faith. Whether they are Jew or Gentile makes no difference.

I couldn't agree more. But what you are refusing to see is what James says, and Paul says. Does not James say he is of works? Does Paul say the same thing of the Gentile? Do we have to do a work (make blood sacrifices, build an Ark, offer a son, be water baptized to be saved)?

 

[canadyjd]

....I believe the difficulty comes from not understanding the foreknowledge of God. Man gets confused when reading such as this, and brushes it aside as contradiction,.....

It would be easier for me to understand what you are saying if you would simply answer my questions directly and plainly.

Are you saying that Jewish Christians must have works added to their faith to be saved but that Gentile Christians need only to have faith without works?

Many can't see, and don't want to see that our God is a God of division....

I see scripture plainly saying that God brought both Jew and Gentile together as one new man that both may be presented, by faith in Jesus Christ and not by works, to the Father in the Spirit. (Eph. 2)

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Does not James say he is of works?

No, he does not. James does not say he is saved by his works. James does not say his works cooperate in his salvation.

James says that works validate the profession of faith that Christians (both Jew and Gentile) give.

Does Paul say the same thing of the Gentile?

Yes, Paul says the same thing that James says.

Eph. 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9)not as the result of works, that no one should boast. (10)For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Do we have to do a work (make blood sacrifices, build an Ark, offer a son, be water baptized to be saved)?

No, and neither do the Jews, nor have the Jews ever had to do those things to be saved.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

peace to youraying:

 

[preacher4truth]

[/FONT]No, he does not. James does not say he is saved by his works. James does not say his works cooperate in his salvation.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]

James says that works validate the profession of faith that Christians (both Jew and Gentile) give.Yes, Paul says the same thing that James says.

Eph. 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9)not as the result of works, that no one should boast. (10)For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."No, and neither do the Jews, nor have the Jews ever had to do those things to be saved.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

peace to youraying:

VERY well said.

:thumbs:

 

[canadyjd]

VERY well said.

:thumbs:

Thank you for the kind words.

peace to youraying:

 

[ituttut]

It would be easier for me to understand what you are saying if you would simply answer my questions directly and plainly.[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]

Are you saying that Jewish Christians must have works added to their faith to be saved but that Gentile Christians need only to have faith without works?

Not at all as we know Today there is no difference of Jew and Gentile . All are Gentiles Today.

To keep in context James was justified under the Old economy, which did require a work, by the hands of man, for was necessary for John, Peter, and all the rest. All these, as scripture shows at Pentecost (Acts 2:38) received remission of sins by repenting, and being baptized, receiving the Holy Ghost.


Please notice at the time of Pentecost, and for some time afterwards, God still recognized those of Israel as His own people, and they then(not now)had to still do the works of their hands of baptizing, blood sacrifices, and still adhering to the Law of Moses.

If we will understand the book of Acts, we see as time progresses we find to receive the Holy Ghost requires the hand of certain people such as Peter, and Paul. As we know both of those necessities ceased. The last act of the power of the Holy Spirit in operation is with Paul when he reached Rome.

Not until after Damascus Road can we find in all of scripture through faith in Jesus Christ being applied. And the first visual effect of this foreknowledge of God of THROUGH faith is applied to a Gentile. Peter, and those other Israelites were shocked beyond belief. The emotional impact was overwhelming.

I see scripture plainly saying that God brought both Jew and Gentile together as one new man that both may be presented, by faith in Jesus Christ and not by works, to the Father in the Spirit. (Eph. 2)

And then you do see that scripture holds true when we have scripture that proves you, and I, correct in our belief. For today by the Grace of God, through faith we are all saved that believe in Jesus Christ. It is the Gift of God, and certainly not by any works that we may have done, we do, or we will do. Jesus Christ did all of the work for us.

 

[ituttut]

[/FONT]No, he does not. James does not say he is saved by his works. James does not say his works cooperate in his salvation.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]But can you not see you are disputing what James says of Abraham, and his work?To be saved, one must be justified, and James was justified By Faith, if we read scripture leaving it in context. When James was justified as the Jews are the time had not yet come for him to be justified as I, a heathen Gentile.

James says that works validate the profession of faith that Christians (both Jew and Gentile) give.Yes, Paul says the same thing that James says.

Eph. 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9)not as the result of works, that no one should boast. (10)For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."No, and neither do the Jews, nor have the Jews ever had to do those things to be saved.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Well, Let's try at showing what James is saying. To the Twelve Tribes he says "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:20-22)

Verse 20 is true because without any works being done, faith is dead.

Now notice (in context) what he says next in verse 21. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works"?

Still keeping in context we come to the next verse 22 stating the fact "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works.

May I ask BY whose WORKS are YOU justified? By what James says to Israel, or what Paul says to we Gentiles all, today?

 

[canadyjd]

Not at all as we know Today there is no difference of Jew and Gentile . All are Gentiles Today......And then you do see that scripture holds true when we have scripture that proves you, and I, correct in our belief. For today by the Grace of God, through faith we are all saved that believe in Jesus Christ. It is the Gift of God, and certainly not by any works that we may have done, we do, or we will do. Jesus Christ did all of the work for us.

So, you are saying that the Jews used to be saved by their faith plus their works (under the "old economy"), but now everyone is saved only by faith, not by faith plus works. Is that what you are saying?

peace to youraying:

 

[ituttut]

So, you are saying that the Jews used to be saved by their faith plus their works (under the "old economy"), but now everyone is saved only by faith, not by faith plus works. Is that what you are saying?

peace to youraying:

You said it. To be true to scripture can you show us one person in the OT of through faith justification?

I believe I've said this here before. Please re-read Hebrews 11. If we can believe what Paul writes to his people, then we can see what Christ Jesus from heaven revealed to him. Are all from the beginning justified BY FAITH, or in some other manner?

 

[canadyjd]

You said it. To be true to scripture can you show us one person in the OT of through faith justification?

I believe I've said this here before. Please re-read Hebrews 11. If we can believe what Paul writes to his people, then we can see what Christ Jesus from heaven revealed to him. Are all from the beginning justified BY FAITH, or in some other manner?

Look, thanks for the discussion.

I honestly don't know what you are trying to say since you don't seem to be able to say it plainly and I really don't like guessing.

So....

peace to youraying:

 

[ituttut]

Look, thanks for the discussion.

I honestly don't know what you are trying to say since you don't seem to be able to say it plainly and I really don't like guessing.

So....

peace to you

Hey, I to enjoyed our discussion. Regret scripture was not more interesting to you.


Of course no need to answer, but I love to put forth the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven, and I will leave off with this...

In Acts 10: 43-44, which is after the Damascus incident, we find these words: "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

If we can accept it, we can plainly see God had Peter preach another gospel to the Gentile. This Apostle to the Jew preached the gospel of the as shown in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

It is up to each of us to determine How We Are Justified, and how we Received the Remission of Sins. I choose the Gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven, but then again is Not Another Gospel as Paul tells us in Galatians 1:6-7, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."


We become aware that, that other gospel to the Jew as shown in the Great Commission, and at Pentecost to the Jew in Acts 2:38 is not to us. But some just will not accept the pure Gospel of Grace that Christ revealed to Paul.

May God bless you as you study His Word, looking to rightly divide it.

 

[canadyjd]

Hey, I to enjoyed our discussion. Regret scripture was not more interesting to you.

Brother, there is no need to be insulting. Scripture I find ultimately interesting.

I simply don't know what you're trying to say about it.

In Acts 10: 43-44, which is after the Damascus incident, we find these words: "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

If we can accept it, we can plainly see God had Peter preach another gospel to the Gentile. This Apostle to the Jew preached the gospel of the as shown in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

It is up to each of us to determine How We Are Justified, and how we Received the Remission of Sins. I choose the Gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven, but then again is Not Another Gospel as Paul tells us in Galatians 1:6-7, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."


We become aware that, that other gospel to the Jew as shown in the Great Commission, and at Pentecost to the Jew in Acts 2:38 is not to us. But some just will not accept the pure Gospel of Grace that Christ revealed to Paul.

May God bless you as you study His Word, looking to rightly divide it.

So, now you have spoken plainly. Thank you.

It is clear to me you have misunderstood scripture on this matter. I do not believe the passages you quote support the idea of two gospels (one to Jews and one to Gentiles).

However, I see you are thouroughly convinced in your own mind on the matter, so we'll leave it at that.

Thanks for the discussion

peace to youraying:

 

[preacher4truth]

Hey, I to enjoyed our discussion. Regret scripture was not more interesting to you.


Of course no need to answer, but I love to put forth the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven, and I will leave off with this...

In Acts 10: 43-44, which is after the Damascus incident, we find these words: "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

If we can accept it, we can plainly see God had Peter preach another gospel to the Gentile. This Apostle to the Jew preached the gospel of the as shown in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

It is up to each of us to determine How We Are Justified, and how we Received the Remission of Sins. I choose the Gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven, but then again is Not Another Gospel as Paul tells us in Galatians 1:6-7, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."


We become aware that, that other gospel to the Jew as shown in the Great Commission, and at Pentecost to the Jew in Acts 2:38 is not to us. But some just will not accept the pure Gospel of Grace that Christ revealed to Paul.

May God bless you as you study His Word, looking to rightly divide it.

Ituttut, this is definitely not true what you say. I had a SS teacher that tried this same load of bunk on his class. You're straining the texts to come up with some bizarre distinction.

Repentance to life is the same for both, Acts 11:18. The apostles said that God ALSO granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. In other words, as it was offered to the Jews, so to the Gentiles.

Look at Numbers 15:15 for an example of how this applied to both the Jew and the Gentile in an OT example. See also Romans 10:12.

 

[ituttut]

Brother, there is no need to be insulting. Scripture I find ultimately interesting.[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I observed you must not be interested for you were not interested enough to try and answer what 2 questions that were in my post, which is shown immediately below

Originally Posted by ituttut
You said it. To be true to scripture can you show us one person in the OT of through faith justification?

I believe I've said this here before. Please re-read Hebrews 11. If we can believe what Paul writes to his people, then we can see what Christ Jesus from heaven revealed to him. Are all from the beginning justified BY FAITH, or in some other manner?

I simply don't know what you're trying to say about it.So, now you have spoken plainly. Thank you.

It is clear to me you have misunderstood scripture on this matter. I do not believe the passages you quote support the idea of two gospels (one to Jews and one to Gentiles).

If you will note I point you to scripture, and not something I've made up. As you wished to continue in conversation, I'll ask again what do you find in Hebrews 11, which is written to them (Israel) and about them. Can you find justification of the sinner through faith therein?

If it cannot be found, it's must be that through faith was not available to them. WHY? Because it was not yet available to them, which scripture plainly shows. Scripture will prove It is Through His Blood that we are made clean, and not before.

However, I see you are thouroughly convinced in your own mind on the matter, so we'll leave it at that.

Thanks for the discussion

[/QUOTE]
Aagain see you wish end our conversations. May I part with my mind comprehends such scripture as (hope you can find time to look these up, which should give you a clue as to a CHANGE WAS MADE. If not then you had better believe Acts 2:38, and hope for the best.) Matthew 15:22-28; Ephesians 2:11-13; Romans 3:30; Galatians 1:11-12, and II Peter 3:15-16.

 

[canadyjd]

.... I believe I've said this here before. Please re-read Hebrews 11. If we can believe what Paul writes to his people, then we can see what Christ Jesus from heaven revealed to him. Are all from the beginning justified BY FAITH, or in some other manner?

If you will note I point you to scripture, and not something I've made up. As you wished to continue in conversation, I'll ask again what do you find in Hebrews 11, which is written to them (Israel) and about them. Can you find justification of the sinner through faith therein?

If it cannot be found, it's must be that through faith was not available to them. WHY? Because it was not yet available to them, which scripture plainly shows.

You have based this theoloy upon a distinction between the phrases "by faith" and "through faith". I believe the phrases mean the same thing and are used interchangeably.

You have repeatedly referenced Hebrews 11. In v. 39, referring to all the Old Testament Saints just mentioned, the writer states (11v.39)

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not recieve what was promised". (emphasis mine)

I have now shown you scripture which contradicts your theory. I didn't make it up. It is right there in the very verses you were attempting to use to prove otherwise. The writer of Hebrews uses the phrases "by faith" and "through faith" interchangeably to refer to the faith of O.T. Saints.

I hope you will now change your beliefs to conform to the Word of God.

peace to youraying:

 

[ituttut]

Ituttut, this is definitely not true what you say. I had a SS teacher that tried this same load of bunk on his class. You're straining the texts to come up with some bizarre distinction.

Repentance to life is the same for both, Acts 11:18. The apostles said that God ALSO granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. In other words, as it was offered to the Jews, so to the Gentiles.

Look at Numbers 15:15 for an example of how this applied to both the Jew and the Gentile in an OT example. See also Romans 10:12.

You call it bunk, and I call it letting scripture interpret itself. I call it truth.

I too believe scripture, but have you not noticed Acts 11:18 is after Acts 9? Is it pure bunk when Christ Jesus spoke to Saul/Paul on Damascus Road in Acts 9? Is this not the beginning of something unheard of? How about that - I have my on Apostle; just as Israel has it's 12 Apostles.

The beginning of the Gospel of Christ Jesus from Heaven begins in Acts 9, and the door is now open for the Gentiles to be included, and not before, excepting a proselyte.

Is it bunk in Acts 10 we see how the Gentile is saved (different than was the Jew).

Is it bunk to see that Peter was called on the carpet in Jerusalem Acts 11 you point to? He was able to defend himself because GOD MADE HIM associate with we, the dogs. Jesus did not associate with Gentiles, and neither did any true upstanding Jew. Peter had no intention of going to a Gentile, just as he says in lActs 10 to Cornelius. .

But while you are speaking of the salvation of the Jew, and the Gentile, why not give the whole story? You look to preferPeter for you view, so what else does he say about Jew and Gentile salvation? Peter's ultimate salvation is as he says in Acts 15:11, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

I believe all scripture, and it does not contradict. If we fail to believe something new happened on Damascus Road, then all the contradictions, trying to make the Old and the New apply today, will still remain.

Can we believe scripture? I can. Ephesians 3:1-5, "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit"

Look at Numbers 15:15 for an example of how this applied to both the Jew and the Gentile in an OT example. See also Romans 10:12

In your above Numbers 15:15 we see proselytes to the JEWISH FAITH, which is under the Law. Do you believe you are under the Law of Moses' gospel, and also under the gospel of Paul? Jesus says can you mix the Old with the New?

In using the gospel of Paul (your Romans above), you are trying to mix it with Moses' Law. Today God recognizes all as Gentiles, i.e. salvation is as God decrees as we see in Ephesians 2:38, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Can you see we are not Israel today, but in the Body of Christ?

 

[ituttut]

You have based this theoloy upon a distinction between the phrases "by faith" and "through faith". I believe the phrases mean the same thing and are used interchangeably.

canady I believe you are still refusing to believe Paul .."Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." ROMANS 3:30[quote]

You have repeatedly referenced Hebrews 11. In v. 39, referring to all the Old Testament Saints just mentioned, the writer states (11v.39)

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not recieve what was promised". (emphasis mine)

I have now shown you scripture which contradicts your theory. I didn't make it up. It is right there in the very verses you were attempting to use to prove otherwise. The writer of Hebrews uses the phrases "by faith" and "through faith" interchangeably to refer to the faith of O.T. Saints.

I hope you will now change your beliefs to conform to the Word of God.[/quote]

Please take a moment to look at what you highlighted, which is through their faith.
Our saving faith is Through The Faith of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and not as you wish it to be, and that is THROUGH THEIR FAITH.

You do err, and I would hope you would change your beliefs to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven.