Is scripture true, or does it contradict?

[preacher4truth]

You call it bunk, and I call it letting scripture interpret itself. I call it truth.

I too believe scripture, but have you not noticed Acts 11:18 is after Acts 9? Is it pure bunk when Christ Jesus spoke to Saul/Paul on Damascus Road in Acts 9? Is this not the beginning of something unheard of? How about that - I have my on Apostle; just as Israel has it's 12 Apostles.

The beginning of the Gospel of Christ Jesus from Heaven begins in Acts 9, and the door is now open for the Gentiles to be included, and not before, excepting a proselyte.

Is it bunk in Acts 10 we see how the Gentile is saved (different than was the Jew).

Is it bunk to see that Peter was called on the carpet in Jerusalem Acts 11 you point to? He was able to defend himself because GOD MADE HIM associate with we, the dogs. Jesus did not associate with Gentiles, and neither did any true upstanding Jew. Peter had no intention of going to a Gentile, just as he says in lActs 10 to Cornelius. .

But while you are speaking of the salvation of the Jew, and the Gentile, why not give the whole story? You look to preferPeter for you view, so what else does he say about Jew and Gentile salvation? Peter's ultimate salvation is as he says in Acts 15:11, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

I believe all scripture, and it does not contradict. If we fail to believe something new happened on Damascus Road, then all the contradictions, trying to make the Old and the New apply today, will still remain.

Can we believe scripture? I can. Ephesians 3:1-5, "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit"

In your above Numbers 15:15 we see proselytes to the JEWISH FAITH, which is under the Law. Do you believe you are under the Law of Moses' gospel, and also under the gospel of Paul? Jesus says can you mix the Old with the New?

In using the gospel of Paul (your Romans above), you are trying to mix it with Moses' Law. Today God recognizes all as Gentiles, i.e. salvation is as God decrees as we see in Ephesians 2:38, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Can you see we are not Israel today, but in the Body of Christ?

Yes, I see! You can't see the whole counsel of God. Acts 11:18 stands. Repentance unto life for both Jew and Gentile. Numbers 15:15 is passover acceptance for all. Not law. It is an OT allusion and picture of the Gospel of Grace, and in no way whatsoever does Passover mean Law. It points to Christ and Him alone.

I'll leave you to your error, you will never see it and are bound by some refusal to see it. No further discussion needed.

 

[canadyjd]

Please take a moment to look at what you highlighted, which is through their faith.
Our saving faith is Through The Faith of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and not as you wish it to be, and that is THROUGH THEIR FAITH.

You do err, and I would hope you would change your beliefs to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ from heaven.

I continue to struggle with the point you are attempting to make.

You have repeatedly stated that the Jews are justified " by faith", but that Christians are justified "through faith". You asked me to look at Hebrews 11 to prove your point, saying scripture never refers to the faith of O.T. Saints with the phrase "through faith" but always with the phrase "by faith".

Hebrews 11, referring to O.T. Saints, repeatedly uses the phrase "by faith" when referring to the O.T. Saints until v. 39, when it says "through their faith".

Now you have apparently changed your argument to say that Gentiles are saved "through the faith of Jesus Christ", but that Jews are saved through their own faith (plus works as you stated earlier) instead of the "by faith" argument you have been using.

I am honestly attempting to understand what you are saying and study scripture to see if it supports what you are saying.

I notice, however, that you are beginning to insult me on a regular basis, first stating that I'm not interested in scripture, and now saying that I "wish" saving faith to be something other than what you see in scripture, insinuating you know that my motives are something other than simply trying with humility to understand God's Word.

Therefore, I leave you and this discussion, but sincerely wish...

peace to youraying:

 

[charles_creech78]

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Jesus said blessed are them that have not seen but still believe. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Seek and ye shall find. knock and the door shall be open. For he that seeks shall find. There is work but that will not save you or it does not save you:Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. The gift of God is Jesus Christ. A gift does not cost anything it is free. But God commands us all to repent and come to the knowledge of the truth! The truth is in Jesus Christ.

 

[ituttut]

Yes, I see! You can't see the whole counsel of God. Acts 11:18 stands. Repentance unto life for both Jew and Gentile.

You are right, and we see how the Gentile receives that repentance in Acts 10, and later Peter understands it all, and says the Jew can now be saved just like the Gentile. They can move from the Old to the New

Numbers 15:15 is passover acceptance for all. Not law. It is an OT allusion and picture of the Gospel of Grace, and in no way whatsoever does Passover mean Law. It points to Christ and Him alone.

For you edification, I with love put scripture before you. Please read it. Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord.
16. One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you."

To be as they one must be circumcised, make blood sacrifices, and live under the Law of Moses. This is scripture, and how the "stinger (heathen) was justified in that day. They had to come to God just as the Jew. Today it is just the opposite, that is If We Believe His Word.

I'll leave you to your error, you will never see it and are bound by some refusal to see it. No further discussion needed.

Thank you preacher for the Tête-à-tête. I pray that you may grow in Christ Jesus who shed His blood for both Jew, and Gentile.

 

[luke1616]

What can we discern from scripture below, when contrasting James in writing to the twelve tribes, and Paul to Gentiles with the understanding that all today are Gentiles?


James speaks to the twelve tribes: James 2:23,24, "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."


Paul speaks to the Gentiles: II Timothy 1:8-12, " Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9. Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10. But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11. Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Try to let scripture interpret itself.

Abraham, took his son to the altar obeying God. He fully trusted God in this act. This is a work of faith. Faith is the substance of things not seen. Abraham played this out, his son was spared. If he failed, it would not be a work of faith.
Anyone can say they have faith.
When it is put to the test in your life and does not fail, this is called faith with works, or walking in faith.
If faith is never tested in your life or if you fail, it is called faith without works, or talking about faith.
When you complete each test of faith, it grows and the next test is tougher, faith to faith.
If your faith is dormant and it is all talk or confession only, you have very little faith.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are right, and we see how the Gentile receives that repentance in Acts 10, and later Peter understands it all, and says the Jew can now be saved just like the Gentile. They can move from the Old to the New
For you edification, I with love put scripture before you. Please read it. Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord.
16. One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you."

To be as they one must be circumcised, make blood sacrifices, and live under the Law of Moses. This is scripture, and how the "stinger (heathen) was justified in that day. They had to come to God just as the Jew. Today it is just the opposite, that is If We Believe His Word.Thank you preacher for the Tête-à-tête. I pray that you may grow in Christ Jesus who shed His blood for both Jew, and Gentile.

No one has ever been justified by the Law. There is no coming to God by the law, ever.

All who were ever justified were justified by faith. It's always been this way.

Keep reading.

 

[ituttut]

I continue to struggle with the point you are attempting to make.

From what you write below, I can see why you struggle with scripture. This is not my idea; it is scripture that you just cannot bring yourself to believe. Romans 3:30, "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." I keep repeating this in order that some may see how they are justified Today.

You have repeatedly stated that the Jews are justified " by faith", but that Christians are justified "through faith". You asked me to look at Hebrews 11 to prove your point, saying scripture never refers to the faith of O.T. Saints with the phrase "through faith" but always with the phrase "by faith".

Hebrews 11, referring to O.T. Saints, repeatedly uses the phrase "by faith" when referring to the O.T. Saints until v. 39, when it says "through their faith".

Now you have apparently changed your argument to say that Gentiles are saved "through the faith of Jesus Christ", but that Jews are saved through their own faith (plus works as you stated earlier) instead of the "by faith" argument you have been using.

Regret I am not able to make myself more clear, but I do believe scripture is clear. I have not changed. I have tried to show that those in the OT could not come through faith the faith of Jesus Christ. Why? Because the Blood had not yet been applied to them. Did Moses have access to His Blood, or did Moses have to make blood sacrifices, as an individual, and then the High Priest go into the Holy of Holies once a year to cover the sins of God's people, and any proselytes?

How could they come Through His Blood when it had not been applied in those days? And how could they believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved forever when they didn't know His Name. Did God tell Moses His Name? "I Am That I Am" was the answer Moses got when he asked. The name of Jesus was a secret, or it would have been told Israel had He wished them to know His Name.

I am honestly attempting to understand what you are saying and study scripture to see if it supports what you are saying.

I do see you are trying, but to me you seem not to believe what Paul says, in certain places. Do you believe the above will hold water? There are at least two more instances where Jesus would not tell His Name when asked. Genesis 32:29, "and Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there."
And then Samson's dad in Judges 13:17-18, " And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
18. And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?"

Again I try my best to present scripture to support what I say. But many find it hard to actually believe Paul was given a heavenly dispensational gospel,as we see in Ephesians 3:1"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:" I can do no more than I'm allowed, for then I would be trying to put an interpretation other than what scripture shows

I notice, however, that you are beginning to insult me on a regular basis, first stating that I'm not interested in scripture, and now saying that I "wish" saving faith to be something other than what you see in scripture, insinuating you know that my motives are something other than simply trying with humility to understand God's Word.

Sad I really didn't notice your acute sensitivity. My remarks come from your not looking into Scripture. What is your answer to Peter when he says how they can now be saved."But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they", Acts 15:11. Were you interested enough to look into this verse to see what Peter is talking about? Isn't that before Now in his life that he was saved in another manner?

As to WISH, what else would you have me say? You presented the scripture of Through Their Faith, so what is one expected to say, other than you wish it to be so, in order for you to be right in what you believe. I take your little slurs, and brush them off; such as "hope you will now change your beliefs to conform to the Word of God.

Therefore, I leave you and this discussion, but sincerely wish...

Me too.

 

[ituttut]

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Jesus said blessed are them that have not seen but still believe. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Seek and ye shall find. knock and the door shall be open. For he that seeks shall find. There is work but that will not save you or it does not save you:Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. The gift of God is Jesus Christ. A gift does not cost anything it is free. But God commands us all to repent and come to the knowledge of the truth! The truth is in Jesus Christ.

Amen to all. We turn to Him, who has already forgiven us.

 

[charles_creech78]

Its contradict because man reads the scripture wrong. Man reads it in nature and not the way God wanted us to read it. He wants us to read it in the spirit and learn it in the spirit. Jesus said these words that I say unto you are spiritual and they are life. Jesus words are in the bible? They also say it contradict it self. Why because they do not rightly divide the word of truth. It is the truth thats way they say it contradicts. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall not. God bless!

 

[ituttut]

Abraham, took his son to the altar obeying God. He fully trusted God in this act. This is a work of faith. Faith is the substance of things not seen. Abraham played this out, his son was spared. If he failed, it would not be a work of faith.
Anyone can say they have faith.
When it is put to the test in your life and does not fail, this is called faith with works, or walking in faith.
If faith is never tested in your life or if you fail, it is called faith without works, or talking about faith.
When you complete each test of faith, it grows and the next test is tougher, faith to faith.
If your faith is dormant and it is all talk or confession only, you have very little faith.

In other words you seem to be saying we must do a work in faith to be saved, or to continue to be saved?

I believe that Jesus Christ did all of the work, and if I try to take credit for the work that He did for me, then is it of Grace or of works of our own as you imply? Are we not saved By Grace, Through the faith of Jesus Christ? This is the Gift that God gives us, if we will only take it, and not try to say it is Our Faith, With Our Works that we are saved.

 

[ituttut]

No one has ever been justified by the Law. There is no coming to God by the law, ever.

All who were ever justified were justified by faith. It's always been this way.

Keep reading.

It would help if you read, and understood my posts. Where do find in anything I have written that I am of WORKS? Try to understand what I am saying. Until sometime after Pentecost, they were still doing works, as we can see in Acts. And before that ALL had to do a WORK, before the Law, and after the Law was given. Not until Grace THROUGH faith became known, and understood by man, did the WORKS CEASE.

 

[ituttut]

Its contradict because man reads the scripture wrong. Man reads it in nature and not the way God wanted us to read it. He wants us to read it in the spirit and learn it in the spirit. Jesus said these words that I say unto you are spiritual and they are life. Jesus words are in the bible? They also say it contradict it self. Why because they do not rightly divide the word of truth. It is the truth thats way they say it contradicts. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall not. God bless!

And God bless you. Have you heard! The last words on our salvation today came from Christ Jesus in heaven. And they were given to a man named Saul/Paul.

We should think seriously of seeing what Christ Jesus revealed to him. Peter says we should, according to the wisdom given to Paul.

 

[MB]

This is an age old apparent difficulty within Scripture. I seems as though James is making works the main object of our faith and Paul making faith the main. Obviously the both complement each other for James never states works alone save us but that works are the product of faith and without them there's no proof of faith. James in Acts 15 is in agreement with Paul as they send out those who took letters to those who were perverting the Gospel with the requirement of works. As always Scripture supports and confirms itself in its entirety.

Let the record show Sola Saint and I agree on the understanding of this scripture. My being a Non Cal agreeing with a Calvinist on anything is rare.
Well said Sola Saint.
MB