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For All you Calvinists, and otherwise

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kyredneck

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I don't know if you realize that Bro. Ross is a Calvinist. He operates a bookstore here that deals mainly with the works of Spurgeon. So, he isn't an Armenian.

That doesn't surprise me in the least. Most Missionary Baptists (that is the split offs from the PBs) claim to be Calvinists. They espouse A.W. Pink in a huge way (or the ones I know do (as do I)).

Like I said, the main thing this Elder said at the Primitive Baptist church I attended was that it didn't matter if someone heard the Gospel or not, if they are part of the Elect, they are saved. Now, this belief may be rare even among Primitive Baptist, but I find this contrary to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Like I said in post #58, “It is their belief that “regeneration can remain inactive before it leads to repentance and faith” that gives the Primitives a bad rap.” Those who are unfamiliar with this concept of making a distinction between regeneration and conversion may have problems understanding this.
 
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Winman

Active Member
See the next post... then start figuring out where people fall on the scale. :smilewinkgrin:

Well, if I had to compare my personal beliefs with what you listed, I come closest to the Arminian belief, although I believe in Preservation of the Saints. I do not believe any Christian saves himself through works, nor can maintain salvation through works. I believe as Jesus said that those who have believed have passed from death to life.

I do not agree with several of your definitions in the next post. I agree with foreknowledge, I believe the scriptures clearly show God knows who will believe before it actually takes place.

I believe your definition of predestination error. Predestination applies only to saved persons.

I agree with your very brief definition of election, however I believe God elected or chose to save those persons whom he knew by foreknowledge would believe.

I do not necessarily agree with your definition of regeneration. The term regeneration is used only twice in scripture and is much different than how a Calvinist defines it.

Faith is OK, Conversion does mean turning.

Adoption does not mean to be adopted in the sense we hold today. We think of a person being legally adopted into a family into which he did not belong today. In the scriptures adoption means "coming of age", when a person is given legal rights. Galations 4 explains.

Gal 4: 1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


When you trust Christ you are born of God. You are an actual son, you are not like a person who belongs to the Smith family by birth and is adopted by the Jones family. In scripture times a child was under tutors until they reached a particular age, at which point they could legally take possession of their inheritance, sign legal documents... This is what adoption in the scriptures speaks of.

I agree with your definition of perserverance.

I disagree with your definition of repentance. Repentance means to change one's mind, not turn from sin. If repentance means to turn from sin then God is a sinner, because the scriptures say God repented several times.

I basically agree with your other definitions.
 
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Benjamin

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Originally Posted by Benjamin:
I always try to lump 5 point Calvinism/Hyper Calvinism together with the logical necessity of Hard Determinism to help point out the grievous errors which lead their "doctrines" straight into theological fatalism.

But there is no "hard determinism" in Calvinism.

The person is led into a right relationship with God on God's timetable, which is not the instant the message is heard or any other time.

One of the errors I've seen in those describing Calvinsim as it is actually practiced is that they seem to hold (falsely) that because God draws the elect and God causes them to be regenerated, that happens against the will, or immediately (determinism). Such is never the case that I can see, nor was it for me, though decidedly a complete work of God.

You say there is no “hard determinism”…that’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it, but I see you contradicting yourself straight away. I would argue that at all 5 points of Calvinism hinge on Determinism as a “logical necessity” and that your (Calvinist) attempts to reconcile free will (influence and response) and determinism (cause and effect) is within that logical necessity, and a must to avoid theological fatalism. Like I said prior; I do not buy into the Calvinist teaching attempts to explain away those things which are logically mutually exclusive (free will and determinism).

Unfortunately, like I’ve also already said, I don’t have the time to properly argue this point right now, but my opinion stands, and I’ll put you on my list should I get the chance to go into greater depth on this. ;)
 

Winman

Active Member
That doesn't surprise me in the least. Most Missionary Baptists (that is the split offs from the PBs) claim to be Calvinists. They espouse A.W. Pink in a huge way (or the ones I know do (as do I)).

Like I said in post #58, “It is their belief that “regeneration can remain inactive before it leads to repentance and faith” that gives the Primitives a bad rap.” Those who are unfamiliar with this concept of making a distinction between regeneration and conversion my have problems understanding this.

All I know is this, if regeneration means to have spiritual life, then you cannot be regenerated until after you trust Christ. Until you trust Christ you are dead in sins, you are condemned already, you will not see life. The scriptures say numerous times that you cannot have life until you believe. So if regeneration means life, then faith precedes regeneration.
 

kyredneck

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....the Primitive Baptist church I attended ....

I have to ask. Outside of doctrine, what was your impression of them? Were they friendly? Did you feel welcome? Were there many? Did they sing well? Did you linger with them after the service?
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not certain really if I should answer you, nor how to answer you. Your post seems to mock the doctrine and my intent to understand it.. "..."trying" to understand limited invitation and Calvinism"....? Was it necessary to state it that way? I wouldn't call it limited invitation.

Maybe we can get on the right track with this, but I don't think your intentions were for dialogue, but rather borderline polemic.

And this is our first attempt at dialogue on here. Not a great start really.

Also, your Scriptures aren't enlightening on the topic. Perhaps you could elaborate?

If you'll imagine a few eyebrow raises and a warm wink with my descriptive wording maybe you will not be taking it as so offensively and I won't be wondering if you are being a bit thin skinned. ;)

You were asking about invitation and I offered scripture to show sincere invitation to all. FWIW, I simply offered the scripture. BTW, limited invitation/limited atonement is there big a difference?
 

Robert Snow

New Member
I have to ask. Outside of doctrine, what was your impression of them? Were they friendly? Did you feel welcome? Were there many? Did they sing well? Did you linger with them after the service?

I feel they were sincere Christians who have a desire to serve the Lord. Yes, they were friendly and I did feel welcome.

We must have sang at least eight or ten hymns, a cappella of course. Some years ago I served as an organ player for one church I attended, so I am partial toward instruments, but the singing was nice. Although I have always had a pretty good knowledge of the hymns Baptists sing, I don't recall seeing any of the hymns we sang Sunday morning in any other hymnal I have used. I did not linger after the service, I needed to get home, so I left.

Although I don't agree with the doctrine, I still count them as brothers and sisters in Christ. I feel the same way toward the Primitive Baptist here on the Baptist Board, and yes Dr. Bob, that includes you! :1_grouphug:
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
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I feel they were sincere Christians who have a desire to serve the Lord. Yes, they were friendly and I did feel welcome.

We must have sang at least eight or ten hymns, a cappella of course. Some years ago I served as an organ player for one church I attended, so I am partial toward instruments, but the singing was nice. Although I have always had a pretty good knowledge of the hymns Baptists sing, I don't recall seeing any of the hymns we sang Sunday morning in any other hymnal I have used. I did not linger after the service, I needed to get home, so I left.

Although I don't agree with the doctrine, I still count them as brothers and sisters in Christ. I feel the same way toward the Primitive Baptist here on the Baptist Board, and yes Dr. Bob, that includes you! :1_grouphug:

Thank you for that honest assessment brother. It meant a lot to me to hear those good words concerning them from you.
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
Anyway, here are the "Order of God's Decrees" as commonly held.

Supralapsarian (Hyper-Calvinism)
  • To elect some to eternal life and the rest to eternal separation
  • To permit the fall of man
  • The atonement of Christ - where satisfaction is made for the elect thus securing their redemption
  • The gift of the Holy Spirit to regenerate and sanctify the redeemed

Supralapsarianism puts God's decree to elect some to eternal life prior to His decree to permit the Fall. This view is usually associated with High Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism, a variation places the decree to elect prior even to the decree to create man.

The question raised between the Supra- and Infra-lapsarian views boils down to this: Does God discriminate between men in order to save some, or does He save some in order to discriminate between men?

While there have been logical arguments articulated for the Supra-views, opponents contend there is little scriptural support. Therefore, election should be viewed as logically subsequent to the Fall. See also John 15:19 and Romans 11:5–7. Scripture also declares that the elect are chosen unto sanctification and to the sprinkling of the blood of Christ. They must therefore have been regarded as guilty and defiled by sin when they were chosen. See 1 Pet. 1:2, and Eph. 1:4–6.​

Infralapsarian (sublapsarian)
  • To permit the fall of man
  • To elect some to eternal life, leaving the rest to their just deserts
  • The atonement of Christ - where satisfaction is made for the elect thus securing their redemption
  • The gift of the Holy Spirit to regenerate and sanctify the redeemed

Infralapsarianism recognizes that election has to do specifically with salvation. It maintains that the principle of particularism, in the sense of distinguishing grace, belongs to the sphere of God's plan of redemption. Therefore, Infralapsarians place election at the head of those decrees that look to salvation and subsequent to the decrees of creation and the Fall. In the order of thought, election falls subsequent to the decrees of creation and the Fall because these refer to all men alike, since all men are certainly created and all men have certainly fallen. Likewise, election falls prior to the decrees of redemption and its application because it is just as certain that all men are not redeemed and all men are not saved.

The Infralapsarian view is that of historic Calvinism (the heart of Reformed Theology). According to Warfield, this is the only view that is self consistent and consistent with the facts of Scripture.

John Calvin said in the final edition of the his Institutes, "No one who wishes to be thought religious dares simply deny predestination, by which God adopts some to hope of life, and sentences others to eternal death. But our opponents, especially those who make foreknowledge its cause, envelop it in numerous petty objections. We indeed, place both doctrines in God, but we say that subjecting one to the other is absurd." Institutes III.21.5 (Translation Battles & McNeill)​

Amyraldian
  • To permit the fall of man
  • The atonement of Christ - where all men are made savable, with salvation conditioned on individual faith.
  • To elect some to receive moral ability and the necessary grace to believe
  • The gift of the Holy Spirit to sanctify believers

Amyraldism developed historically following the Synod of Dort as a compromise between Calvinism and the early Arminianism by giving up what was perceived as some of the harshness of Calvinism. The Amyraldian view is associated with Calvinism because it retains a particularistic element by acknowledging God's distinguishing grace in the election of individuals.

The logic the of Amyraldians, however, places divine election after the decree to provide an atonement. This makes the atonement universal in nature and the application of the atonement particular in nature through divine election. This view is sometimes referred to as Four-Point Calvinism since it gives up the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement in favor of a universal atonement. Although Amyraldianism may be a recognizable form of Calvinism because it retains the principle of particularism in election, it is not necessarily a good form of Calvinism as it turns away from a substitutionary atonement, which is as precious to the Calvinist as his particularism,"

This view maintains that Christ died for all men alike, making all men savable, with actual salvation conditioned on individual faith. Then God, seeing that no one would respond because of their depravity, chose (or elected) some to receive the grace to believe. Some see this as inconsistent, for how is it possible to contend that God gave His Son to die for all men alike and equally, and at the same time to declare that when He gave His Son to die, He already fully intended that His death should not avail for all men equally, but only for some which He would select.

The primary characteristic of the Amyraldian scheme is the placement of election after the atonement. However, opponents contend that Scripture indicates Christ came in order to execute the purpose of election. He came to die for and give eternal life to as many as the Father had given Him. See John 10:15 and 17:2, 9. If this point is true, then the decree to elect some of mankind should necessarily precede the decree to provide an atonement. The Amyraldian scheme assumes the reverse to be true.​

Arminian
  • To permit the fall of man
  • The atonement of Christ - where satisfaction is made for all men and all are given sufficient grace to believe, if they will
  • To predestine to eternal life those whom He foresaw would believe of their own free will
  • Sanctification of all who cooperate with the sufficient grace

Biblical Christianity was revived in the 16th century Protestant Reformation. However, it didn't take long after the Reformation for some of the same theological issues that Augustine faced to resurface, e.g. the sovereign grace of God versus the free will of man. This is not surprising since variations of free will Semi-Pelagianism had become the accepted position of both the Eastern and Roman churches.

At the Synod of Dort, 1618–1619, the Reformed churches of the day officially condemned what was perceived as the revived Semi-Pelagianism of the Dutch Remonstrants in favor of a strict Calvinistic position as expressed in the Belgic and Helvetic Confessions. Although officially rejected, this view continued to exist and grow in the Protestant churches under the name of Arminianism from Jacob Arminius, 1560–1609.

Arminianism sees itself as a fundamental improvement over the Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian views in that it is supernaturalistic, attributing the primary work of salvation to God at all points. However, it maintains that by virtue of God's universal prevenient grace all men have a free will and the ability to savingly respond to God. It also maintains that predestination is based on God's divine foreknowledge, where foreknowledge is erroneously equated with foresight.

Arminianism is "universalistic" since in its view God does no more for any man than He does for all. This reduces to the point where the deciding factor in salvation is in man himself, which thus approaches Semi-Pelagianism where man saves himself with God's help. Reformed theologians therefore see a rather gray line that distinguishes Arminianism from Semi-Pelagianism.​

Semi-Pelagian
  • To permit the fall of man - physical and moral deterioration
  • The atonement of Christ - to make possible the gift of sufficient grace and give this grace to all
  • Salvation of all who freely cooperate with this grace
  • Sanctification by cooperation with God's grace
Semi-Pelagianism is only a mild improvement over blatant Pelagianism. According to this view, man is not by nature totally depraved, but does suffer a physical and moral deterioration resulting from the Fall. In this view, man has retained his natural free will and the ability to improve on the grace God has provided to all.

Like Pelagianism before it, Semi-Pelagianism was condemned at the Council of Orange in 529 in favor of a moderate Augustinian view. Even though the sovereignty of God's grace in salvation was upheld by Augustinianism to this point, compromises made at the Synod of Orange left an incipient semi-Pelagianism which was eventually revived and accepted by the church at large during the middle ages.​

Pelagian
  • Gift of free will whereby each may do all that is required of him
  • Gift of the law and gospel to illuminate the way and persuade men to walk in it.
  • Gift of Christ to (expiate past sin and) set a good example
  • Acceptance of all who walk in the right way

This view is basically a naturalistic view of salvation as opposed to a supernaturalistic view. The primary issue between the naturalist and the supernaturalist may be summed up in one question: Does man save himself or does God save him? In its purity, Pelagianism affirms that all the power exerted in saving man is native to man himself. It is basically a salvation by works mentality that continues to show up in various forms today.


Molinism: ?????

You skipped giving us the "low down" of this theological/philosophical position which is gaining in acceptance among christian thinkers, philosophers, apologists and theologians.​
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
If you'll imagine a few eyebrow raises and a warm wink with my descriptive wording maybe you will not be taking it as so offensively and I won't be wondering if you are being a bit thin skinned. ;)

You were asking about invitation and I offered scripture to show sincere invitation to all. FWIW, I simply offered the scripture. BTW, limited invitation/limited atonement is there big a difference?

My bad. All I imagined was an offended person replying polemicly to a doctrine he doesn't understand and mocks, showing he is losing the battle, and has no real answers. And my imagination of what you are came true!

I expected a mature response. My bad.

Your Scripture references prove nothing.

No need to wonder. Your thin skin shined through on your initial response.

Wink Wink.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
glfredrick:

BTW: I wanted to say Thank You for all those "definitions". Really do appreciate it. Currently I am actually reading a book by a "reformed" theologian. Kenneth Keathley. "Salvation and Sovereignty". I do realize, many of the "devoted" reformers probably do not put much "stake" in Dr. Keathley, but I am, for the moment enjoying the read.
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My bad. All I imagined was an offended person replying polemicly to a doctrine he doesn't understand and mocks, showing he is losing the battle, and has no real answers. And my imagination of what you are came true!

I expected a mature response. My bad.

Your Scripture references prove nothing.

No need to wonder. Your thin skin shined through on your initial response.

Wink Wink.

........................................... :rolleyes:
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
You and I might should be buddies...

I will gladly be "buddies" with anyone, as long as you realize, I like molinism with a heavy lean away from reformation theology. I like molinism for several reasons, one being, that in quantum physics, we now understand the "random" nature of the universe, ie, that to me being interpreted, that God built into the fabric of creation "wiggle room" for some essence of creaturely free will, though I am not convinced of "libertarian" free will.

Mercy, Peace and Love in abundance.
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
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I will gladly be "buddies" with anyone, as long as you realize, I like molinism with a heavy lean away from reformation theology. I like molinism for several reasons, one being, that in quantum physics, we now understand the "random" nature of the universe, ie, that to me being interpreted, that God built into the fabric of creation "wiggle room" for some essence of creaturely free will, though I am not convinced of "libertarian" free will.

Mercy, Peace and Love in abundance.

I also look at God's purposes in creation and see some "wiggle room" from the classical view of Divine foreknowledge to explain free will. "Libertarian free will" carries so many definitions, depending who is defining, that I generally chose to avoid the label rather than argue the definition.

Blessings
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
I also look at God's purposes in creation and see some "wiggle room" from the classical view of Divine foreknowledge to explain free will. "Libertarian free will" carries so many definitions, depending who is defining, that I generally chose to avoid the label rather than argue the definition.

Blessings

I often incur incredible "criticism" with regard to "free will" of creatures, usually with the argument that it "totally discounts" the sovereignty of God. I just fail to see how that is so. For me, it makes God even more Awesome and Sovereign, in that he can "allow" for some elements of free will (randomness) and still accomplish His ultimate purposes in the lives of nations and men.
 

Havensdad

New Member
Anyway, here are the "Order of God's Decrees" as commonly held.

Supralapsarian (Hyper-Calvinism)

O.K., brother, I have to correct you here. Hyper Calvinism does not equal Supralapsarianism. A person can be a non-hypercalvinist, and a supralapsarian at the same time.

The definition of Hyper-Calvinism, classically speaking, has nothing to do with the order of the decrees. Hyper-Calvinism's sole defining characteristic, is downplaying evangelism because of election. One can be a Supra, or Infra, and a Hyper, or a Supra, or Infra, and a non-Hyper.
 

Tom Butler

New Member
I often incur incredible "criticism" with regard to "free will" of creatures, usually with the argument that it "totally discounts" the sovereignty of God. I just fail to see how that is so. For me, it makes God even more Awesome and Sovereign, in that he can "allow" for some elements of free will (randomness) and still accomplish His ultimate purposes in the lives of nations and men.

I'm curious about your comment that God can "allow" for some elements of free will (randomness). I think I need some clarification.

Are you saying that "some elements of free will" means that the will is not completely free? That there are limits? Can those limits imply that regarding free will, God says "this far and no farther?"

Does this then follow to mean that God's sovereignty trumps man's will? If God can limit man's will, can he over-ride it completely?

Then, we still haven't even touched Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain;"

One could make the argument that God's foreknowledge springs directly from his determinate counsel, not the other way around. I read from this verse that what God determines today he has determined from eternity. What I don't read from this verse is that God foreknows man's choices and reacts accordingly.

Yet, Peter described those who carried out God's determine counsel as wicked, thus held responsible.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but I can't see God's determinate counsel trumped by man's will. To argue that is to argue that God is at the mercy of man's will, and He can't do some things if man won't let him.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
I'm curious about your comment that God can "allow" for some elements of free will (randomness). I think I need some clarification.

Are you saying that "some elements of free will" means that the will is not completely free? That there are limits? Can those limits imply that regarding free will, God says "this far and no farther?"

Does this then follow to mean that God's sovereignty trumps man's will? If God can limit man's will, can he over-ride it completely?

Then, we still haven't even touched Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain;"

One could make the argument that God's foreknowledge springs directly from his determinate counsel, not the other way around. I read from this verse that what God determines today he has determined from eternity. What I don't read from this verse is that God foreknows man's choices and reacts accordingly.

Yet, Peter described those who carried out God's determine counsel as wicked, thus held responsible.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but I can't see God's determinate counsel trumped by man's will. To argue that is to argue that God is at the mercy of man's will, and He can't do some things if man won't let him.

Tom, here is what I am trying to say:

I most definitely an convinced that God has created mankind with some degree of "free will". It is my view, that man must use that free will with regards to salvation. I think science (quantum physics and mechanics) has stumbled perhaps on the "wiggle room" that God has, by design forged into creation.

I do believer God is supreme and soveriegn over all, but I aslo believe that He intentionally created, particularly His moral creation with the ability to "choose" or not to "choose".

Quantum physics and mechanics has taught us during this past century, that things are not as "completely certain" as one might think, with respect to the atomic and sub-atomic realm. Personally, I see this as part of God's grand design to allow for freedom for his creation, albeit, within the established parameters He has set forth.

To me, mans ability to choose (free will) in no way takes away from God's Glory or Sovereignty, in fact, I think it highlights God's Greatness even more so.

So, even though you may disagree with me to the existence of "free will" or any degree of freedom, please understand and respect that I hold an "infinitely high" view of YHWH.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
I'm curious about your comment that God can "allow" for some elements of free will (randomness). I think I need some clarification.

Are you saying that "some elements of free will" means that the will is not completely free? That there are limits? Can those limits imply that regarding free will, God says "this far and no farther?"

Does this then follow to mean that God's sovereignty trumps man's will? If God can limit man's will, can he over-ride it completely?

Then, we still haven't even touched Acts 2:23, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain;"

One could make the argument that God's foreknowledge springs directly from his determinate counsel, not the other way around. I read from this verse that what God determines today he has determined from eternity. What I don't read from this verse is that God foreknows man's choices and reacts accordingly.

Yet, Peter described those who carried out God's determine counsel as wicked, thus held responsible.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but I can't see God's determinate counsel trumped by man's will. To argue that is to argue that God is at the mercy of man's will, and He can't do some things if man won't let him.

BTW: If you have interest in some writing integrating physics, science and faith, might I suggest almost anything by Dr. John Polkinghorne.
 
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