For All you Calvinists, and otherwise

[Winman]

The command to repent is to all regardless of their ability to respond to the command.

I'm sorry, but that is plain dumb.

Imagine if I went out in my yard and yelled "Here Spot, here Spot!" over and over.

A neighbor comes over and asks what I'm doing. I tell him I am calling my dog.

He replies, "But you don't own a dog!"

What do you think that neighbor would think of me? Why, he would think I was crazy.

And that is about what your argument sounds like. God calls people whom he knows cannot possibly respond.

Ridiculous, how can people allow themselves to believe such foolishness as this?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yea, I've caught wind of some rumblings going on there. I was raised SB, and I ran into a long lost cousin who is still SB at Walmart several months back, and she was telling me of the new assembly she was attending that had spun off from a large major SB Church in town. The split was, in her words, "on account of those evil Calvinists". She was shocked to find out the PBs that I attend were evil like them also, and she never talked anymore about it. Anyway, it was good to see her.

Ha Ha, Ha .... thats funny.... " Those Evil Calvinists" heard they eat babies.

 

[Luke2427]

I'm sorry, but that is plain dumb.

You must be a young man to be so abrasive and arrogant here. Maybe one day you'll be older and mature.:thumbs:

Imagine if I went out in my yard and yelled "Here Spot, here Spot!" over and over.

A neighbor comes over and asks what I'm doing. I tell him I am calling my dog.

He replies, "But you don't own a dog!"

This analogy is sorely deficient.

What do you think that neighbor would think of me? Why, he would think I was crazy.

And that is about what your argument sounds like. God calls people whom he knows cannot possibly respond.

Ridiculous, how can people allow themselves to believe such foolishness as this?

God invites people who can't respond. God commands people to do what they cannot do.

For example God commands all men to keep the whole law. And he will hold them accountable for not doing so. BUT NNE can keep the whole law- NNE.

So there you have God calling upon people to do what they cannot do.

God demands perfection but NNE is perfect. So there you have God demanding of men what they cannot possibly perform.

The whole Bible is full of this, have you read it????

 

[quantumfaith]

The command to repent is to all regardless of their ability to respond to the command.

Come on Luke, do really think this is correct. God commands all to repent, even those who He has not equipped to do so?

In my mathematics, that just doesn't add up.

 

[quantumfaith]

You must be a young man to be so abrasive and arrogant here. Maybe one day you'll be older and mature.:thumbs:



This analogy is sorely deficient.



God invites people who can't respond. God commands people to do what they cannot do.

For example God commands all men to keep the whole law. And he will hold them accountable for not doing so. BUT NNE can keep the whole law- NNE.

So there you have God calling upon people to do what they cannot do.

God demands perfection but NNE is perfect. So there you have God demanding of men what they cannot possibly perform.

The whole Bible is full of this, have you read it????

OK, now I see your point, although I really dont agree with your "reasoning" here. "Keeping the law" and "perfection" both seem to me to be equivalent statements. I agree, God demands this, and yes He and we know it is fundamentally impossible. But perhaps that is the point. To me much different than the call to repentance, which is an element of salvation. Keeping the law, striving for "perfection" is an element of sanctification. Thus I am not convinced the analogy is a solid one.

I will allow my "arminianess" to show for a moment and make the claim that it is fundamentally "unjust" for God to demand something of us, which is not possible without His assistance, and yet refuse to grant that assistance. But, God is God and He can do whatever he wishes?

 

[quantumfaith]

Ha Ha, Ha .... thats funny.... " Those Evil Calvinists" heard they eat babies.

Hey EWF, got the message from your new quote, Thanks.

 

[Luke2427]

Come on Luke, do really think this is correct. God commands all to repent, even those who He has not equipped to do so?

In my mathematics, that just doesn't add up.

Your math is off and your emphasis on math is over the top. This leads to your error.

God commandeth all men everywhere to repent.

That is what Paul said on Mars Hill.

But many do not. Therefore many are commanded to do what they cannot do.

This should not be a problem for you Quantum. God commands all men everywhere to keep his commandments- no man anywhere can.

Therefore God commands men to do what they cannot do. BTW, he then holds them accountable for not doing what he commanded even though they can't.

Everyone who does not come to Christ will be judged fro every transgression of the law of God they have ever made. Yet they CANNNOT keep the law.

What does this tell you?

That God has no problem telling men to do what they cannot do and then holding them accountable for it.

I don't care if that is not palatable. I don't care if puny mortals think it is not fair. God does not answer to us and our standards of right and wrong.

His word teaches that is what he does- that ought to be more than enough for any child of God.

 

[Luke2427]

OK, now I see your point, although I really dont agree with your "reasoning" here. "Keeping the law" and "perfection" both seem to me to be equivalent statements. I agree, God demands this, and yes He and we know it is fundamentally impossible. But perhaps that is the point. To me much different than the call to repentance, which is an element of salvation. Keeping the law, striving for "perfection" is an element of sanctification. Thus I am not convinced the analogy is a solid one.

I will allow my "arminianess" to show for a moment and make the claim that it is fundamentally "unjust" for God to demand something of us, which is not possible without His assistance, and yet refuse to grant that assistance. But, God is God and He can do whatever he wishes?

Come on, Bud. You're so close to getting it- so close to seeing the truth here. But your preconceived ideas of what justice is, those man centered ideas of justice, those ideas that say that God's justice is contingent upon his dealings with sinful men- that is what keeps you from getting it.

God does command men to do what they cannot do. It does not matter if it is for sanctification or for salvation- that is irrelevant. He does it. If it is unjust then God Almighty is unjust- I'll let you tell Him.

If you believe he can do it with the law then there is no reason to condemn Him for doing it with repentance. Repentance is a command no less than thou shalt not kill.

God COMMANDETH all men everywhere to repent.

No man can repent on his own.

Every man who ever has repented can say God enabled him.

Every man who does not repent must say that God did not enable him to the same degree as the one who DID repent- or else the one who did repent can boast that he is better, wiser, holier than the one who does not repent.

Either some are better, wiser, or holier before salvation than others or- it is all of God.

Even if they are wiser- why? What circumstances led them to be wiser? More brain matter? Better raising? More Christian friends? All of those things are controlled by God. So even if one repents because he is wiser it is still God who enabled him to do what God did NOT enable another to do.

Read my signature.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm sorry, but that is plain dumb. Imagine if I went out in my yard and yelled "Here Spot, here Spot!" over and over. A neighbor comes over and asks what I'm doing. I tell him I am calling my dog.
He replies, "But you don't own a dog!" What do you think that neighbor would think of me? Why, he would think I was crazy. And that is about what your argument sounds like. God calls people whom he knows cannot possibly respond. Ridiculous, how can people allow themselves to believe such foolishness as this?

That is one horrendous analogy right there. Just because you've used an analogy, one to which you've given very little thought, to describe a doctrine, doesn't make the doctrine akin to your faulty analogy.

Did Jesus preach his message of the kingdom to, say, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, to the rich man, to many others who ultimately would reject it? Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" So our Lord Jesus Christ did, in fact "call people whom he knows can't respond" or better yet, your wording here is faulty, like your entire analogy. A better, more proper wording would be He knew they wouldn't respond. He knows who are His. His people will respond and be converted. His grace will win His people. Others will reject it. Thus, we don't cherry pick our preaching. Neither did He, even though He knows the hearts of all men, He still preached to the crowds. His people received Him. Those not His? They rejected Him.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13

 

[glfredrick]

Come on Luke, do really think this is correct. God commands all to repent, even those who He has not equipped to do so?

In my mathematics, that just doesn't add up.

I'm not picking on you Quantum... Just using your post as a springboard for what several are saying.

Actually, though not worded in a way that makes it palatable, Luke is correct.

None of us can save ourselves. We are solely dependent on God. God has commanded EVERY human for all time to be holy, to keep His Law perfectly, and also to repent of any sin, but we all know that not a single one of us can do any of those things, hence our desperate need for a Savior.

Praise God, when the fullness of time was complete, He sent His Son, born of a woman...

Is it not Pelagian to think that we can do the actions that lead to worthiness in the eyes of God? Do we not preach that the unregenerate man cannot just "do the right things" and satisfy God, even if we are Arminian? Some of you have merely reacted to a statement that you've not considered before without thinking through what is actually being said.

 

[pinoybaptist]

........ God has commanded EVERY human for all time to be holy, to keep His Law perfectly, and also to repent of any sin, but we all know that not a single one of us can do any of those things, hence our desperate need for a Savior.

.........

no, He does not. He commands His people, exclusively, to repent and turn to Him. He does command all MANKIND to repent. He commands all men everywhere to repent and that is not the same as commanding every individual man as in all manKIND.

The unregenerate does not know and will not acknowledge that he is incapable of what God demands of him. Have you ever watched a Roman Catholic walk from the door of the church, on her knees, bleeding as they are, to the main altar of a church 15 meters away, week after week, because she is sure that in due time God will see her repentant heart and forgive her into heaven ? I have, and I'm talking of my grandmother who raised me.

Have you ever watched a throng of thousands of men trying to get to this idol they are pulling, of a man with a cross on his shoulders and a crown of thorns on his head, and men stepping across this throng to get to that float, on the shoulders of other men, falling and getting crushed in the crowd, because he had a vow of repentance and if he can only show his "sacrifice" then maybe his sins will be forgiven ?

Have you ever watched a cousin of yours try to duplicate what Christ did as his vow for that year's sins, getting himself literally flogged and skin torn, and then nailed to that cross he dragged across a hot, dusty road under a baking Philippine sun ?

Have you ever tried to talk to these people and say that what they were not doing is not repentance and be told you are a damnable heretic ?

On the other hand you have probably not seen a communist assassin with a long list of hits he had done, raised as a communist in the hills by his atheist parents, be given a Bible and read that Bible in his solitary confinement cell and within weeks turn into a remorseful, repentant detainee who then went on to save the lives of his police escorts in an ambush staged by his former colleagues to free another and him, and who consistently preached from his jail cell, and go on to be a preacher in another denomination in the very area where he did his "kills".

No, Godly repentance is for God's people.
Reformation is for everybody else.

 

[glfredrick]

I have seen a lot of things, and yes, I have seen miracles of repentance.

But, you are wrong about God not giving His commandments to all people. His commandments are not just for the elect. It is rather the elect who God choses to save out of the failure to keep a perfect and sinless life.

 

[preacher4truth]

God gives His message to all. It is His message, and the rejection thereof by the lost, that will ultimately condemn them. This indictment is laid upon those who refused to obey and hold to the knowledge of God, and instead, preferred to supress the truth in unrighteousness. They are without excuse, He made His message available to them.

 

[RAdam]

Men are not condemned by rejecting Jesus. Men are already in a condemned state whether or not they ever hear about Jesus Christ. Those who reject Jesus, who love darkness rather than light, manifest their condemned state. Those who believe show that they have been freed by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

 

[preacher4truth]

Men are not condemned by rejecting Jesus. Men are already in a condemned state whether or not they ever hear about Jesus Christ. Those who reject Jesus, who love darkness rather than light, manifest their condemned state. Those who believe show that they have been freed by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

That's why I said it will ultimately condemn them. Of course they are already under wrath, condemntation. I am talking about final judgment to come.

 

[RAdam]

If one is already under condemnation, then his/her rejection of Christ will not condemn then now or ultimately. What it does is manifest the fact of their being under condemnation. Belief, on the other hand, manifests the fact that one has everlasting life, shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24).

Jesus was clear that everyone that doeth evil hateth the light and won't come to the light. But, he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they are (presently) wrought in God. One comes to the light to manifest what he/she is, a born again child of God doing righteous works wrought in God. A person who rejects Christ and stays in the darkness manifests him/herself to be in a state of condemnation before God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

But, you are wrong about God not giving His commandments to all people. His commandments are not just for the elect. It is rather the elect who God choses to save out of the failure to keep a perfect and sinless life.

no, I will have to keep saying no to this statement, whether it comes from you or anybody else, and mean no disrespect.

Romans 15:4 says : For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

There is a very clear line of distinction here. This statement excludes those who are not of the "we" and "our".

All things written aforetime from which we derive learning whether it be the character of God, our sinfulness, the demands God has placed upon us, the commandments by which we are to define our lifestyles, preferences, personal conduct, rules of faith and practice, all of these are what we call Scriptures, and Paul says it is clearly for OUR learning, those who call upon the Name of Christ, not those who don't.

If God had intended for those who are not His to be subject to His commandments He would have told Moses, to whom He gave the law, to compel all tribes within the perimeters of Israel to come and listen to Him as well. But He did not. He very specifically told His people that they were not to do those things that the Gentiles did in order for it to be known that there is a God in Israel.

And in the 10th chapter of his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul writes basically the same thing, albeit with a different context, and he says :

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant , how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased : for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted . 7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written , The people sat down to eat and drink , and rose up to play . 8 Neither let us commit fornication , as some of them committed , and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted , and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye , as some of them also murmured , and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come .

This Scripture clearly EXCLUDES those outside of Israel. And since national Israel is NOT THE TRUE ISRAEL, but rather a picture of the true Israel, which is composed of both Jew and Gentile, then and now, we see that God's dealings, His disciplining, concerns only those whom He has placed under His mercy and His care.

Those who are not of God ALREADY have their comeuppance defined for them, they had no Savior in whom their lives have been hid. As the Scripture said:

Let him who is holy be holy still, let him who is unrighteous, be unrighteous still.

 

[preacher4truth]

If one is already under condemnation, then his/her rejection of Christ will not condemn then now or ultimately. What it does is manifest the fact of their being under condemnation. Belief, on the other hand, manifests the fact that one has everlasting life, shall not come unto condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24).

Jesus was clear that everyone that doeth evil hateth the light and won't come to the light. But, he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they are (presently) wrought in God. One comes to the light to manifest what he/she is, a born again child of God doing righteous works wrought in God. A person who rejects Christ and stays in the darkness manifests him/herself to be in a state of condemnation before God.

I just said the same things without elaboration. Do we to go into a peeing contest on this?