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Tulip: Total depravity

S

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
If I understand this point it relates to the fallen nature of man and that without Jesus Christ they is totally irredeemable.

However, I question if Depraved is the correct term to apply here?

Consider:

Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Obviously, being depraved was not the starting point?

And:
2Ti 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

It would appear, possibly, that depravity entails an active opposition to the truth?

When we go out and call mankind depraved we automatically get a gut reaction to the negative.

Granted, in God's Eyes all have sinned and come short of His Glory.

But, are all men depraved just because of original sin?

Or, do they become morally bankrupt by choice?
 
B

billwald

New Member
The point is that human sin nature contaminates all human activities including the Church. It does NOT mean that every person is always as evil as possible all the time. It does NOT mean that humans can do "good" stuff.
 
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Tom Butler

New Member
My pastor a few years ago said Total Depravity does not mean that a man is as bad as he can be. He is as bad off as he can be.
 
G

glfredrick

New Member
The term "depravity" is an unfortunate choice of terms, as it has changed meaning somewhat since Calvin 500 years ago.

It simply means that we are unable, on our own, to come to God (in the simplest possible form). There is nothing "good" in us that merits God's attention, so any form of good works that might earn God's approval are never going to happen.

Isaiah 64:6 seems to sum up this position well.
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
SpiritualMadMan said:
I.............
But, are all men depraved just because of original sin?

Or, do they become morally bankrupt by choice?
Click to expand...


GE:

"JUST" because? You must think this over again, SMM! Read the puritans!

"OR"? "Or, do they become morally bankrupt by choice?"?! Man's having "become morally bankrupt by choice" --- THAT, _WAS_, man's "original sin"! Not only his sinn-ING afterwards continuing-in-original-sin!
 
P

preacher4truth

Active Member
SpiritualMadMan said:
If I understand this point it relates to the fallen nature of man and that without Jesus Christ they is totally irredeemable.

However, I question if Depraved is the correct term to apply here?

Consider:

Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Obviously, being depraved was not the starting point?

And:
2Ti 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

It would appear, possibly, that depravity entails an active opposition to the truth?

When we go out and call mankind depraved we automatically get a gut reaction to the negative.

Granted, in God's Eyes all have sinned and come short of His Glory.

But, are all men depraved just because of original sin?

Or, do they become morally bankrupt by choice?
Click to expand...



When they were given over to it, was it not that God allowed their depraved nature, which was already inherent, to have freecourse in them?
 
S

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
preacher4truth said:
When they were given over to it, was it not that God allowed their depraved nature, which was already inherent, to have freecourse in them?
Click to expand...

Yes, once they set their course. And, persisted in resisting God's Truth.

This goes, I think, to the original meaning of depraved.

Not the end result of resisting God.

But, man's inherent self-will nature "towards" resisting God and His Truth.

Again, we have a wild horse that can't be broken...

And, we have a wild Horse that can be broken...

Lastly, we have to be very careful how we assume to be God's Hands when we go looking for Wild Horses to break for God's Kingdom.

We can either be "The Army" or the "Indian", thinking of the Disney Movie "Spirit" here...
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
SpiritualMadMan said:
If I understand this point it relates to the fallen nature of man and that without Jesus Christ they is totally irredeemable.

However, I question if Depraved is the correct term to apply here?

Consider:

Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Obviously, being depraved was not the starting point?
Click to expand...

You make a good point here.

The text allows for the same depravity that we see in Romans 3 "No one who seeks after God no not one" but does not allow for "total depravity" at the start - since clearly an even more hardened condition is possible over time where a person "hardens their heart".

in Christ,

Bob
_______________________________________
John 8:32 "The Truth shall make you free"
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
SpiritualMadMan said:
Yes, once they set their course. And, persisted in resisting God's Truth.

This goes, I think, to the original meaning of depraved.

Not the end result of resisting God.

But, man's inherent self-will nature "towards" resisting God and His Truth.

Again, we have a wild horse that can't be broken...

And, we have a wild Horse that can be broken...

Lastly, we have to be very careful how we assume to be God's Hands when we go looking for Wild Horses to break for God's Kingdom.

We can either be "The Army" or the "Indian", thinking of the Disney Movie "Spirit" here...
Click to expand...

GE:

Re: “Yes, once they set their course. And, persisted in resisting God's Truth.”

GE:
They ‘set their course’ “TODAY if you hear His Voice!” which was the day Adam and Eve took of the fruit and ate, but before they did eat, “SAW that the fruit was GOOD to eat” and ALREADY BELIEVED the LIE rather than the Truth of the Voice of the LORD That very Day of their fall into the deadly snares of the devil. When they did eat they continued in that they “persisted in resisting God's Truth”.

Why is it, SMM, that you keep on denying man’s FALL in the beginning at his creation? “The original meaning of depraved” is the SAME as and when of in “the end result of resisting God.”

There is no midway station; no translocation; no evolution or growing or developing into some mature state out of some infantile state of being a sinner. Being born a man is being born a sinner as guilty of and answerable for sin as Methuselah at 969 years after birth. And guilty for the first man was guilty of eternal death of hell and damnation as for the son of perdition.

’Tis grace that discriminates; not sin or law.
 
S

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
---snip---
Why is it, SMM, that you keep on denying man’s FALL in the beginning at his creation? “The original meaning of depraved” is the SAME as and when of in “the end result of resisting God.”
---snip---
Click to expand...
GE: I think that You are mad with too much learning.

It is obvious that I am not intellectual enough to successfully debate with you so, perhaps, I need to no longer respond to you.

But, I would like to ask one question where did I deny mankind's fall?

I think you have such a narrow view on theology and doctrine that you are unable to see truth in any verbiage except that which exactly matches your own...

I am truly sorry for you.
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
SpiritualMadMan said:
GE: I think that You are mad with too much learning.

It is obvious that I am not intellectual enough to successfully debate with you so, perhaps, I need to no longer respond to you.

But, I would like to ask one question where did I deny mankind's fall?

I think you have such a narrow view on theology and doctrine that you are unable to see truth in any verbiage except that which exactly matches your own...

I am truly sorry for you.
Click to expand...

GE:

SMM, why did you not respond to my lines just above my question you quoted? They give my answer to your question.
 
S

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
GE:

SMM, why did you not respond to my lines just above my question you quoted? They give my answer to your question.
Click to expand...

No question Marks...

Therefore, No Questions.

Surely a man of your intelligence knows that proper punctuation is essential for proper communication, doesn't he?

And, I *did* respond to the one actual Question you asked...
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
SpiritualMadMan said:
If I understand this point it relates to the fallen nature of man and that without Jesus Christ they is totally irredeemable.

However, I question if Depraved is the correct term to apply here?

Consider:

Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Obviously, being depraved was not the starting point?

And:
2Ti 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

It would appear, possibly, that depravity entails an active opposition to the truth?
Click to expand...

True - there is a degree of choice - free will in either choosing depravity or choosing salvation and repentance.

Some choose to harden their hearts - others choose the Gospel.

Rom 2 states that "God is not partial" He does not simply arbitrarily select out some while rejecting others RATHER He treats ALL the same.

"IF I be lifted up I will DRAW ALL unto me". John 12:32

in Christ,

Bob
 
D

Dr. Walter

New Member
BobRyan said:
True - there is a degree of choice - free will in either choosing depravity or choosing salvation and repentance.

Some choose to harden their hearts - others choose the Gospel.

Rom 2 states that "God is not partial" He does not simply arbitrarily select out some while rejecting others RATHER He treats ALL the same.

"IF I be lifted up I will DRAW ALL unto me". John 12:32

in Christ,

Bob
Click to expand...

Both texts are ripped out of context. Romans 2 simply states the guidelines for a just and equitable judgment without inferring those standing in this judgment are elect or non-elect. The immediate context demonstrates Paul is answering the assumption of the hypocrit who believes he will pass God's final judgment based upon his own perception of his righteousness just as the Jew believed (Rom. 2:16-3:8) he would escape final judgment based upon his own percieved righteousness.

John 12:32 has for its point of origin the Gentiles who come to Christ and is Christ's response to his own disciples in regard to their request. All who knew the Jews perceived them the same way as did the Samaritan woman in John 4. You cannot interpret John 12:32 contrary to the expanded explanation of this teaching in John 6:36-65 and that is exactly what you are doing. You cannot include what Christ excluded in John 17:2 and John 6:37-39 but that is exactly what you are doing.
 
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