What matters is keeping the Commandments of God

[Dr. Walter]

I think the big difference is between you and BobRyan is that Bobryan is making an argument for sanctification. We can't keep the law 100% but does that mean we can't try to live rightly? Or that we should just give up on sanctification? Do you think God wants us to throw up our hands and give up on holiness?

BobRyan interprets sanctification to include justification. Paul's argument in Romans 7 is that obedience to the law does not justify the unregenerate or sanctify the regenerate.

 

[BobRyan]

On the contrary - I always say that only the born-again only those already saved can even choose to "by faith put to death the deeds of the flesh" as we see in Romans 8. Thus the Justification of Romans 5:1 "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" is the entrance into that walk of faith.

But if one is determined to "circle back to the POV of the lost" on all of these texts - then it must appear to such a one that justification is being "earned" when the subject of these texts comes up.

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the commands of God".

in John 14:15 Jesus speaking pre-cross to his Jewish followers "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

James 2 quotes the Ten Commandments claiming that they are binding on Christians today.

Eph 6:1-4 Paul says that the 5th commandment is the first one in that unit of ten "with a promise" and that they are binding on mankind.

1John 3:4 says that the Law of God defines sin. Paul argues the same case in Romans 4 and in Romans 7.

Sadly, Walter's circle-back solution does not work if one follows the details of the Bible carefully - which is why I recommend that you move past it.


having said that - credit where credit is due. Walter may be referring to Paul or James as "Bob" in his statement above because --

In Romans 2 Paul says it is "NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED".
In James 2 James says "you see then that a man is JUSTIFIED by works and NOT by faith alone".

But a careful review of these texts shows that the authors are speaking of FUTURE justification in those cases, not the PAST justification of Romans 5:1.

The future justification scenario is well described in Romans 2 and in Daniel 7 (And in 2Cor 5:10) where "the court sits, the books are opened" Dan 7:10 and then at some future point "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22

That future context for justification - judgment is objective, corporate and based on evidence. It does not change the standing of the saints before God - it merely certifies it in formal legal fashion - in a court of law with God as judge.

But the past context for justification (as we see in Romans 5:1) the status of the LOST sinner changes from lost to saved. Thus when Walter continually appeals to the POV of the lost person and the fact that one cannot even Love God so as to "earn" justification/salvation/forgiveness he is circling back to the Romans 5:1 justification subject (Lost becomes saved) whenever the Romans 2:13 context of future justification comes up (Good tree seen to produce good fruit in Romans 2, as predicted in Matt 7).


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

On the contrary - I always say that only the born-again only those already saved can even choose to "by faith put to death the deeds of the flesh" as we see in Romans 8. Thus the Justification of Romans 5:1 "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" is the entrance into that walk of faith.

But if one is determined to "circle back to the POV of the lost" on all of these texts - then it must appear to such a one that justification is being "earned" when the subject of these texts comes up.

Sadly, Walter's circle-back solution does not work if one follows the details of the Bible carefully - which is why I recommend that you move past it.
Bob

Bob,
You are the one that continues to circle back and back and back again.
The Bible says that for the believer:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (Romans 8:1)

His sins are forgiven: past, present, and future. However, you deny the truth, the validity of this verse, and thus keep circling back. One must take into consideration all of God's Word. If there is no condemnation to the believer, then he can't lose his salvation, and thus the continuation in the commands of Christ is unjustified. We are not justified by continuing in his commands. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). We are justified once and only once. We can never loose our standing in justification. Thus keeping his commandments is done out of love, not out of necessity. If we fail in any of his commandments, no one's salvation is at stake. If I never keep the Sabbath, I cannot lose my salvation, for my salvation is by faith. I am justified by faith not of works. If you don't agree with the last couple of statements especially then you have a religion of works, and not of grace through faith.

 

[Dr. Walter]

On the contrary - I always say that only the born-again only those already saved can even choose to "by faith put to death the deeds of the flesh" as we see in Romans 8. Thus the Justification of Romans 5:1 "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" is the entrance into that walk of faith.

Jesus clearly and explicitly denies that the believer "shall come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" - Jn. 5:24 - Hence, there is no future judgement of the saint in regard to justification.

That future context for justification - judgment is objective, corporate and based on evidence. It does not change the standing of the saints before God - it merely certifies it in formal legal fashion - in a court of law with God as judge.

The texts that you quote to prove a future justification are simply jerked out of their context. Romans 2 is in the preceding and foregoing context that deals with those who believe themselves to be sufficiently righteous BASED UPON WORKS to pass through the judgment (vv. 1-5; vv. 17-31). Your position is identical to their self-evaluation. You also believe that a person BASED UPON works must stand before God and be justified by their works to enter into heaven. You may call it CERTIFICATION but it is a justification by works nevertheless. Jesus says the believer "shall not come into" that judgement but Bob says we will. I will go with Jesus.

But the past context for justification (as we see in Romans 5:1) the status of the LOST sinner changes from lost to saved. Thus when Walter continually appeals to the POV of the lost person and the fact that one cannot even Love God so as to "earn" justification/salvation/forgiveness he is circling back to the Romans 5:1 justification subject (Lost becomes saved) whenever the Romans 2:13 context of future justification comes up (Good tree seen to produce good fruit in Romans 2, as predicted in Matt 7).

You interpret sanctification BY WORKS to be the essential for future Justification for entrance into heaven (just as those in Mt. 7:21-23 who are rejected by Christ). Hence, you do not believe remission of sins and entrance into heaven and everlasting life is obtained by justification through faith in the Person of Christ and His works or that Christ completely satisfied all the laws demands against the believer. No, instead you believe that justification by faith only puts the believer in the position whereby through his OWN person and his OWN works God helps him to maintain his position and that the believer must satisfy the laws standards in order to pass the judgement and enter heaven.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The real distinction between the two opposing views on this forum is in regards to the design and purpose of the life of the believer versus the design and purpose of the life of Christ.

I believe the design and purpose of the life of Christ was to provide by his own life of good works (the righteousness of Christ) and by his own death the complete satisfaction of all the laws demands against the "ungodly" (Rom. 4:5) who receives this gift of grace through faith so that they are justified before God (righteousness imputed) at the point of faith in Christ (no sins shall be imputed (Rom. 4:7-8) so that eternal life by judicial decree is obtained now and heaven is secured now.

I believe the design and purpose of the life of the beleiver is to glorify God and this is obtained solely by the grace of God through the regeneration of the justified and progressive operation of the Indwelling Spirit of God whereby He works in them both to will and to do of His good pleasure to obtain temporal blessings here and now, eternal rewards in heaven and this is through progressively conforming the regenerated man into the image of Christ which is never perfected in this temporal life but is secured solely by God's power and grace in the transformation at the resurrection.

All who are justified by faith are regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit and will be transformed completely into the image of Christ at the resurrection. None of the justified are perfectly transformed here and now and the present process is inclusive of the constant friction between indwelling sin and the renewed inner man, that results in many sins, failure and chastening, battles lost as well as victories won through yeilding to the indwelling Spirit but the outcome of this war is never in question, never at risk even though many skirmishes are lost as our life is never a replacement for the life of Christ in view of justification.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think the big difference is between you and BobRyan is that Bobryan is making an argument for sanctification. We can't keep the law 100% but does that mean we can't try to live rightly? Or that we should just give up on sanctification? Do you think God wants us to throw up our hands and give up on holiness?

GE:


‘Sanctification’ is not that ‘we can try to live rightly’ or that ‘we should just not give up on holiness’

In every instance of the word ‘sanctify’, ‘sanctification’, it is IN CHRIST and SUBSTITUTIONARY no different than ‘justify’, ‘justification’. Sanctification NO different than justification and righteousness, is RECKONED to the saved or reborn.

Justification is pictured as objective and sanctification as subjective righteousness. But in no single occurrence of the concept of sanctification does the believer have sanctity or is he sanctified in his own person or right and not exclusively in Christ and through Christ.

Actually, when one has a look at the texts in which sanctification is mentioned the impression is created that sanctification precedes justification, and does not follow it.

Which in my opinion is in keeping with the basic meaning of sanctification, which is to set apart for a special purpose.

 

[BobRyan]

All who are justified by faith are regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit and will be transformed completely into the image of Christ at the resurrection. None of the justified are perfectly transformed here and now and the present process is inclusive of the constant friction between indwelling sin and the renewed inner man, that results in many sins, failure and chastening, battles lost as well as victories won through yeilding to the indwelling Spirit but the outcome of this war is never in question, never at risk ...

Jesus said "By their fruits you shall know them" --- as it Turns out - Jesus was right.

Jesus through Paul makes this statement about the future Gospel judgment of the saints in Romans 2

Rom 2
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

1Cor 6

8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

1John 2

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

It is clear from these contexts that the issue is "heaven" or "hell" it is not "heaven" or "more heaven" as many smooth messages would have it for tickling ears.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rom 2
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

This is not found in the context of true believers but in the context of hypocrits who believe they will be justified by their works. Paul simply sets forth the just criteria that God will regard works that are presented for entrance into heaven (Mt. 7:22-23). I see you are among those in Romans 2:6-14 and thus among those in Matthew 7:22-23. In this instance, confession is not good for your soul.

8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul is talking about "the unrighteous" or those never justified before God and whose lives are characterized by such sins as listed. He is not talking about those having been justified who struggle with sins. He is challenging them to make their calling and election sure and to examine themselves whether they be in the faith.

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Paul's argument here is the very opposite to your implication. He is proving that justification by grace WITHOUT WORKS does not promote sin because all who are justified by the death of Christ are regenerated by the life of Christ. That we are no longer under the Law but under grace and under grace we have been made servants of righteousness by regeneration and by yeilding to the power of God through faith just as we were justified by faith. We are sanctified by faith and justified by faith "WITHOUT WORKS" and "WITHOUT LAW"!!

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

This does not disprove my position in the least. John is simply providing evidences whereby one can know they have been born of God. Love responds in obedience to God's Word (1 Jn. 5:3-4). A person who (present tense) continues in disobedience to God's Word has no foundation to claim they have been "born" of God but are still in the unregenerated condition described in Romans 8:7 - at enmity with God and not subject to the law of God. However, this text does not deny the struggle with sin in the life of all true Christians (1 Jn. 1:8-10) nor does it demand obedience to be justified before God or to be born again or to be a Christian. It simply provides evidences whereby we examine ourselves and others to "know" whether we have been born of God.

 

[BobRyan]

In my initial statement I point out that the Romans 5:1 context of Justification past - is the point where the lost become saved. But the Romans 2:13-16 context of FUTURE judgment - and FUTURE justification is an event that does not change the status from lost to saved -- nor does it change status from saved to lost. Rather it confirms what the status already IS. As Christ said in Matt 7 "By their fruits you shall know them".

It is no wonder then that we find John saying -

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

This does not disprove my position in the least. John is simply providing evidences whereby one can know they have been born of God. Love responds in obedience to God's Word (1 Jn. 5:3-4).

How nice to see that you have come around to agreement on this point.

However, this text does not deny the struggle with sin in the life of all true Christians (1 Jn. 1:8-10)

Certainly Paul speaks to that struggle in 1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified".

nor does it demand obedience to be justified before God or to be born again or to be a Christian.

Again we have agreement on the POV of the lost person and justification past that we find in Romans 5:1.

It seems that every time the subject of future justification of Rom 2:13-16 comes up you want to circle back to the subject of past justification that we find in Romans 5:1.

It simply provides evidences whereby we examine ourselves and others to "know" whether we have been born of God.

IN Romans 2:13-16 that future justification - and future judgment is not done "by our selves" according to the Apostle Paul - but is done "By God through the man Christ Jesus".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

First I "dare to quote Paul" in Romans 2

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

And of course for daring to quote Paul I get this -

This is not found in the context of true believers but in the context of hypocrits who believe they will be justified by their works. Paul simply sets forth the just criteria that God will regard works that are presented for entrance into heaven (Mt. 7:22-23). I see you are among those in Romans 2:6-14 and thus among those in Matthew 7:22-23..

Matt 7 - "Judge not that you be not judged" you are a bit too quick to sit in the seat of God my friend. In Romans 2 it is God that will judge. And as Daniel 7:22 points out "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" and the empty accusations of the accuser fail at that point.

Those who turn a blind eye to the "perseverance" examples in Romans 2 and the "good tree" in Matt 7 will see only failure in those chapters. But I see
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Those who turn a blind eye to the "perseverance" examples in Romans 2 and the "good tree" in Matt 7 will see only failure in those chapters. But I see
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Do you think just repeating the text makes your interpretation any better?? You jerk it out of context and a text jerked out of context proves nothing. The fact is you dare not place it in its context because it would expose you. Romans 2:1-5 and Romans 2:17-31 sandwich this text and it is sandwiched between the same kind of folk - the kind that believe they will stand in the future judgement and be justified by their works.

Although out of one side of your mouth you claim the future judgement does not change anything but merely reveals it but then out of the other side of your mouth you deny that eternal life is possible apart from this future judgement. However, Jesus says that the believer will not come into this judgement (Jn. 5:24) and so I will side with him.

Moreover, you confuse the "foundation" with the "house" that is built upon it in Matthew 7:24-27. There is no difference in anything but the "foundation" between the two builders. The foundation is the Person and works of Jesus Christ that fulfills the Law in Matthew 5:16-17 and provides the righteousness that exceeds the best of men in Matthew 5:20 which is equal to that of God in Matthew 5:48. This is the will of God, that we believe in Christ for eternal life (Jn. 6:40) as Christ is the "foundation" (1 Cor. 3:11).

As for Matthew 7:1, it condemns only unrighteous judgement but Matthew 7:15-20 twice states that one can know a false prophet by their fruits and the fruits evident in the immediate context is teaching the doctrine of the "broad" way of "Lord, Lord....have we not done many wonderful works" as the basis for final justification and entrance into heaven. That is exactly what you are teaching in direct contradiction to both Christ's words in John 5:24 and Paul's in Romans 3:24-5:1.

 

[Dr. Walter]

How nice to see that you have come around to agreement on this point.

You need to get out and read more. I have never denied this point but consistently taught that saved people must act like saved people or they have no experiential basis to claim to be saved people.

 

[BobRyan]

I quote Paul --

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Those who turn a blind eye to the "perseverance" examples in Romans 2 and the "good tree" in Matt 7 will see only failure in those chapters. But I see
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Dr Walter objects -

Do you think just repeating the text makes your interpretation any better??

The objective unbiased reader quickly notices that the mere quote of the text is sufficient to get your objection.

What I provide from the text is the very portion you are so anxious to ignore in your efforts to spin the whole thing as "nothing but failure".

My argument is that Romans 2 presents BOTH the failing AND the succeeding cases.

Your solution is married to the idea of sifting through Romans 2 so as to only notice failure.

Romans 2 is "sandwiched" between the "saints" of Romans 1:1-17 and those in Romans 3:31 who "establish the Law by their faith".

It is then no wonder that Paul ends Chapter 2 with the following "inconvenient" summary.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Walter
Although out of one side of your mouth you claim the future judgement does not change anything but merely reveals it but then out of the other side of your mouth you deny that eternal life is possible apart from this future judgement.

In Romans 2 Paul identifies the future judgment as part of the Gospel "according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:16, and in Dan 7 that future judgment results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

You appear to complain that God would dare to include that future Judgment as part of the plan of salvation or do you simply complain that are more reduced snippet-gospel rather than the full Gospel as Paul includes judgment in it - is included here.

Notice that this is repeated by John in Rev 14:6-7 where the "Everlasting Gospel" includes the same future judgment message "for the hour of His judgment has come".

In 2Cor 5:10 Paul says "WE Must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil" -- Romans 6 says the reward for evil is death "the wages of sin is death" so also does Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them".

In John 5:24 Jesus says that the saints are not under condemnation - he does not say that they will be excluded from the future Rom 2:16 2Cor5:10 judgment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The objective unbiased reader quickly notices that the mere quote of the text is sufficient to get your objection.

This kind of thinking would justify the use of every proof text by every cult in the world.

Romans 2 is "sandwiched" between the "saints" of Romans 1:1-17 and those in Romans 3:31 who "establish the Law by their faith".

You just as well argue that Romans is sandwiched between Acts and I Corinthians and then pick any subject you like from either book!!!!!! Not only is Romans 2:6-14 sandwiched between verses 1-5 and 17-31 that deal with people who believe that their good works will justify them on judgement day WITHOUT CHRIST but the overall context from Romans 1:18-3:8 is to prove that there is no such human being that is "righteous" and doeth "good" that will be justified by their works (Rom. 3:19-21).

Romans 1:18-3:21 is sandwiched between Romans 1:17 and Romans 3:22-5:1 that teaches the righteousness necessary to pass the judgement is REVEALED in the gospel (Rom. 1:17) which is about the righteousness and redemption in the person and work of Jesus Christ alone by faith alone without works (Rom. 3:24-28). It is this kind of "faith" that has Christ for its object that not only justifies the sinner RIGHT NOW but validates the Law (Rom. 3:31) by satisfying all of its righteous demands through the life and death of Christ rather than through the life of the believer.

It is then no wonder that Paul ends Chapter 2 with the following "inconvenient" summary.

This is no incovenient summary at all. Paul is driving the nail in the coffin of Jewish self-righteousness. He is flatly telling them that their law keeping does not help them in the least because "IF" the gentile obeyes the law written in their conscience (which they don't) it would be regarded equal to their law keeping signified by circumcision. The Jew despised the "uncircumcised" gentile and God despied the Jewish circumcision because NO JEW has ever kept the Law (Jn. 7:19) or at least that is what Jesus said in John 7:19.

In Romans 2 Paul identifies the future judgment as part of the Gospel "according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:16, and in Dan 7 that future judgment results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

What a trashing of God's word!!!!! The gospel is the declaration of the righteousness of God in the Person and works of Jesus Christ. It is this standard as seen in the Person of Jesus Christ (absolute sinlessness) that will judge all who stand before God hoping to be justified by THEIR OWN righteousness and that is the type of person being considered in the preceding (vv. 1-5) and foregoing context (vv. 17-31). That is exactly your perspective as well, you believe that your RIGHTEOUS WORKS of law keeping will CONFIRM your justification but it will be your damnation instead just as it will be theirs (Rom. 3:19-20).

Notice that this is repeated by John in Rev 14:6-7 where the "Everlasting Gospel" includes the same future judgment message "for the hour of His judgment has come".

As Paul says, the gospel is to some damnation and to other salvation (2 Cor. 2:15-16) and in the context of Revelation 14:6-7 it is damnation (vv. 8-11). Those who reject the righteous provision in the gospel found in the Person and work of Christ are under the wrath of God (Jn. 3:36) as they can never produce righteousness in their own life by their own works that measures up to the Law's standard of righteousness (James 2:10-11).

In 2Cor 5:10 Paul says "WE Must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil"

Rewards not justification for salvation (I Cor. 3:11-15)

-- Romans 6 says the reward for evil is death "the wages of sin is death"

Says no such thing. It says "wages" not "rewards" and a wage is what you deserve but grace is something you cannot earn (Rom. 4:4) and you are claiming to earn justification by your own works.

so also does Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them".

Yes, they make the same profession you do "Lord Lord" plus "Have WE not done many wonderful works" - that is not the profession of a true child of God. There is no "WE" in a true profession of salvation and there is no "WE HAVE DONE" but rather it is all about what Christ has done "FOR" us (Rom. 4:24-25).

In John 5:24 Jesus says that the saints are not under condemnation - he does not say that they will be excluded from the future

What an outright lie!!!! He uses the future tense not the present tense as you claim - "SHALL not COME into condemantion" and then joins it with a perfect tense of completed action in the past "but has PASSED from death unto life."

Of course you have to take the scriptures and twist them to say the very opposite to defend your position which is based upon twisting every text you use:

2 Cor. 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I quote Paul --

Dr Walter objects -

The objective unbiased reader quickly notices that the mere quote of the text is sufficient to get your objection.

What I provide from the text is the very portion you are so anxious to ignore in your efforts to spin the whole thing as "nothing but failure".

My argument is that Romans 2 presents BOTH the failing AND the succeeding cases.

Your solution is married to the idea of sifting through Romans 2 so as to only notice failure.

Romans 2 is "sandwiched" between the "saints" of Romans 1:1-17 and those in Romans 3:31 who "establish the Law by their faith".

It is then no wonder that Paul ends Chapter 2 with the following "inconvenient" summary.

In Romans 2 Paul identifies the future judgment as part of the Gospel "according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:16, and in Dan 7 that future judgment results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

You appear to complain that God would dare to include that future Judgment as part of the plan of salvation or do you simply complain that are more reduced snippet-gospel rather than the full Gospel as Paul includes judgment in it - is included here.

Notice that this is repeated by John in Rev 14:6-7 where the "Everlasting Gospel" includes the same future judgment message "for the hour of His judgment has come".

In 2Cor 5:10 Paul says "WE Must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil" -- Romans 6 says the reward for evil is death "the wages of sin is death" so also does Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them".

In John 5:24 Jesus says that the saints are not under condemnation - he does not say that they will be excluded from the future Rom 2:16 2Cor5:10 judgment.

GE:

Revelation is composed in 'parallels' (within a ‘chiasm’).

In the heart / centre of the ‘temple’ is chapter 14, "the EVERLASTING Gospel", like the ‘door’ entrance of the temple.

See:
http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book 6, 2 First Resurrection.pdf pages 188/189.

[On the left hand, 'Thumbnail' button; scroll down to page you want printed, click on it; red border appears. Just above in left hand corner is button, 'Print'.]

Says BR:
"Notice that this is repeated by John in Rev 14:6-7 where the "Everlasting Gospel" includes the same future judgment message "for the hour of His judgment has come."

Seen from our own day that hour of judgment HAD come in Christ incarnated, crucified and resurrected: where the hour of judgment has stopped. The 'future judgment' is the judgment of the wicked and the devil and his angels when Jesus shall return and there will be a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells Righteousness: "The LORD our Righteousness".

 

[BobRyan]

Walter
This is no incovenient summary at all. Paul is driving the nail in the coffin of Jewish self-righteousness. He is flatly telling them that their law keeping does not help them in the least because "IF" the gentile obeyes the law written in their conscience (which they don't) it would be regarded equal to their law keeping signified by circumcision. The Jew despised the "uncircumcised" gentile and God despied the Jewish circumcision because NO JEW has ever kept the Law (Jn. 7:19) or at least that is what Jesus said in John 7:19.

Hint: Paul is a Jew - so also are all the disciples. Paul never argues that no Jews are saints.

In Romans 1 we see BOTH the succeeding cases (Rom 1-17) and the failing cases (Rom 1:18-end of chapter). In Romans 2 BOTH the succeeding cases that I have listed here a half-dozen times (and that Walter is so anxious to ignore) and the failing cases.

In Romans 3 we have BOTH the succeeding cases including those who "by their faith establish the Law" AND the failing cases.

Walter you have turned Romans 2 on its head when wrench the text by saying ""IF" the gentile obeyes the law written in their conscience (which they don't)".

Your bend-and-wrench solution for this portion of Romans 2

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


What eisegesetical insert does Walter offer as a trade in for the text of Romans 2?

What Walter is apparently reading into Romans 2 -------------------

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts -- ( they would if they existed bu such fiction never happens.)


26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? --( such fiction never happens.)

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? - (Well it would if there was such a thing - but there is no such thing.)

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (Well it would if there was such a thing - but there is no such thing so no need to be concerned with that.)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (perfect nonsequitter since the entire line of argument failed to this point.)

------------------- end eisegesis exercise



How instructive that Walter offers a complete denial of the affirming positive texts in Romans 2 as his "solution".

Bob said -
In Romans 2 Paul identifies the future judgment as part of the Gospel "according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:16, and in Dan 7 that future judgment results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

You appear to complain that God would dare to include that future Judgment as part of the plan of salvation or do you simply complain that are more reduced snippet-gospel rather than the full Gospel as Paul includes judgment in it - is included here.

Notice that this is repeated by John in Rev 14:6-7 where the "Everlasting Gospel" includes the same future judgment message "for the hour of His judgment has come".

In 2Cor 5:10 Paul says "WE Must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil" -- Romans 6 says the reward for evil is death "the wages of sin is death" so also does Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them".

In John 5:24 Jesus says that the saints are not under condemnation - he does not say that they will be excluded from the future Rom 2:16 2Cor5:10 judgment.

Note the pulpit pouding response to the Bible position above as it drifts without context or attention to details in the Bible texts above - off into the context of 'the lost seeking salvation'.

Walter said

What a trashing of God's word!!!!! The gospel is the declaration of the righteousness of God in the Person and works of Jesus Christ. It is this standard as seen in the Person of Jesus Christ (absolute sinlessness) that will judge all who stand before God hoping to be justified by THEIR OWN righteousness and that is the type of person being considered in the preceding (vv. 1-5) and foregoing context (vv. 17-31). That is exactly your perspective as well, you believe that your RIGHTEOUS WORKS of law keeping will CONFIRM your justification but it will be your damnation instead just as it will be theirs (Rom. 3:19-20).

As noted before Walter has a pretty good understanding of the lost POV of the Law of God. But in Romans 2 it is "perseverance of the saints" that is exemplified in the succeeding cases. Continually circling back to the POV of the lost and focussing only on the failing cases in Romans 2 is not helping your case Watler because all we need to do is "quote" the succeeding examples that Paul gives IN THE TEXT of Romans 2.

Your spin-doctoring of the text as a solution forces you to continue ignoring the inconvenient details in places like Matt 7 and Romans 2 where the perseverance of the saints is being highlighted.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Let us return to one of Walter's more well reasoned responses -- one with less pulpit pounding and more Bible reading.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Walter

This does not disprove my position in the least. John is simply providing evidences whereby one can know they have been born of God. Love responds in obedience to God's Word (1 Jn. 5:3-4).

How nice to see that you have come around to agreement on this point. When the context is perseverance of the saints and the good fruit of the good tree (as we see in the succeeding cases of Romans 2 and Matt 7) we are not talking about the lost becoming saved - but rather the LIFE LIVEd as a saved saint!

It was good to see Walter at such a point.

How innnexplicable then his rejection of key elements of Romans 2.

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Those who turn a blind eye to the "perseverance" examples in Romans 2 and the "good tree" in Matt 7 will see only failure in those chapters. But I see
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

What I provide from the text is the very portion Dr. Walter is so anxious to ignore in his efforts to spin the whole chapter of Romans 2 as "nothing but failure".

My argument is that Romans 2 presents BOTH the failing AND the succeeding cases.

Your solution is married to the idea of sifting through Romans 2 so as to only notice failure.

Romans 2 is "sandwiched" between the "saints" of Romans 1:1-17 and those in Romans 3:31 who "establish the Law by their faith".

It is then no wonder that Paul ends Chapter 2 with the following "inconvenient" summary.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Instead of all of this being "mythical" Paul is arguing that it is all REAL and happens in REAL life! This is a detail that will not fit a bend-and-wrench solution for Romans 2 or for Matt 7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In 2Cor 5:10 Paul says "WE Must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil"

some have suggested that "given an account" for good deeds results in heaven and for "evil deeds" results in "more heaven".

But that is not what Romans 6:23 says " the wages of sin is death".

Thus in 1John 2 - John makes the case that those who CLAIM to know God but engage in evil deeds show by their deeds that they do not know God.

The same point is made in Romans 2.

Obviously.

In Romans 2:13-16 we have the future Gospel judgment were saints are APPROVED (and the example given is one of a gentile with no access to the Bible at all).

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 …glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Remember(11 For there is no partiality with God. )

And we see again the everlasting Gospel connected to the future Judgment AND to perseverance in Rev 14:6-7

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Romans 2 and Rev 14 proclaim the same future Gospel judgment and both of them emphesize perseverance of the saints!

This may be "just so many Bible details to be ignored" for some - but for many Bible students - all of these details are "instructive" and accepted freely.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

In Romans 1 we see BOTH the succeeding cases (Rom 1-17) and the failing cases (Rom 1:18-end of chapter).

You have them reversed. The succeeding cases in Romans 1-17 are WITHOUT WORKS of the law while the failing cases in Rom 1:18-3:20 are all failing cases by works.

Walter you have turned Romans 2 on its head when wrench the text by saying ""IF" the gentile obeyes the law written in their conscience (which they don't)".

Sorry to disappoint you but that was not my "if" but it is Paul's "if" and Christ's absolute denial:

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Jesus said NONE OF THEM do this (Jn. 7:19). Paul says NONE, NOT ONE do this and therefore NO FLESH can be justified by the works of the law.

 

[Dr. Walter]

What I provide from the text is the very portion Dr. Walter is so anxious to ignore in his efforts to spin the whole chapter of Romans 2 as "nothing but failure".

My argument is that Romans 2 presents BOTH the failing AND the succeeding cases.

The believer succeeds (Rom. 1:1-17; 3:24-5:19) because he rejects his own attempts to keep the law and instead embraces by faith the good news that Christ has satisfied all of the Law's requirements IN HIS PLACE. He is no longer under the law (Rom. 6:14) but dead to the law through the body of Christ (Rom. 7:1-5). The law no longer has any claim on him and the believer no longer has any obligation for ANYTHING other than out of love.

The self-righteous fails (Rom. 1:18-2:5; 2:17-3:21) because his works do not and never will measure up to the Law's demands as it is not the one who says they are keeping the law but the one is doing the law that is justified by his works. Jesus said that NONE of the Jews ever kept the law (Jn. 3:19). Paul says NONE of the Gentiles or Jews ever kept the law (Rom. 3:9-18) and therefore there is "NO FLESH" that can be or will be justified by the law.

Jesus said that the believer "SHALL NOT COME" into condemnation/judgment but has already passed from death to life WITHOUT WORKS and only by FAITH in Christ.

Romans 2:6-15 simply sets forth the just criteria that God will apply to ALL WHO COME TO HIM BY THEIR OWN WORKS hoping to be justified. All who can measure up to God's standard of the Law,which is not saying but doing as James defines it (James 2:10) and according to the standard of righteousness revealed in the gospel (Rom. 1:17; 2:16) found in the person and works of Jesus Christ. Any man who comes before God to be justified by his own works and can measure up to the Person and works of Christ (Rom. 2:16) which reveals what doing the law means (James 2:10) then they will receive the reward of justification by the Law - eternal life but all who do not will receive the reward of sin - eternal damnation. That is the JUST CRITERIA.

However, the verdict is Romans 3:9-20 - There is not one human being on planet earth that can by his own works be justified for all have sinned and come short and that is God's righteous provision in Christ, His person and His works in behalf of sinners is declared in the gospel (Rom. 3:24-26) and that is why FAITH in the gospel vindicates the Law of God in behalf of the believer because only the life and works of Jesus Christ satisfies completely the Law's demands and the believer has been imputed that righteousness by faith.

The beleiver is not under the law any longer but dead to it. Our works have nothing to do with the Law or being justified or condemned by the law but have to do with our progression in grace here and now, experience of salvation benefits here and now and rewards in the future.