What matters is keeping the Commandments of God

[BobRyan]

The believer succeeds (Rom. 1:1-17; 3:24-5:19) because he rejects his own attempts to keep the law and instead embraces by faith the good news that Christ has satisfied all of the Law's requirements IN HIS PLACE.

1. Romans 1:1-17 makes no reference at all to "his own attempts to keep the law". But still we can all agree that this is not what the saints of Romans 1:1-7 are doing nor is it what the saints of Romans 2:11-16, or 26-29 are doing. Nor is it what the saints of Romans 6 and Romans 8 are doing. Instead of "by their own attempts to keep the law" the born-again sainst "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8.

Paul says of the saints who are born again - with a new nature containing the Law of God "written on the heart" -- hint: the New Covenant of Hebrews 8 "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Walter said -

He is no longer under the law (Rom. 6:14)

Indeed no longer under the condemnation of the Law - the saints are then called in Romans 6 to NOT sin!

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Paul is not calling the lost to this position because the lost are condemned by the Law. The lost must first be born-again, saved, justified and walking by faith, "by the spirit puting to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8.

It is only that saved saint that engages in such a Romans 8 walk of faith.

But if we must continually "circle back" to the POV of the lost then we have to keep going to back to the fact that they must first repent TURN from their wicked ways - be "born-again" etc.

This desire to continually "circle back" to the case of the lost - is why in Heb 5-6 Paul says that the church remains in infancy. And so in Heb 6:1 Paul says "LEAVING the elementary teaching... not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works"...

Yet there are some Bible teachers today that would not have their readers, their followers, their congregations hear Paul on this point. They will instead "circle back" each time the subject of the Christian walk comes up because in that born-again context Paul insists "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God". 1Cor 7:19

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Walter

This does not disprove my position in the least. John is simply providing evidences whereby one can know they have been born of God. Love responds in obedience to God's Word (1 Jn. 5:3-4).

How nice it is indeed to find a point of ageement.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

James says in James 2 that we are to LIVE and act as those who ARE to be judged by the "LAw of Liberty". And he quotes from that law in James 2 SHOWING that it is the 10 Commandments.

In Eph 6 Paul affirms that the 5th commandment is in that still-binding law that obligates Christians still today to honor their parents as the "FIRST commandment with a promise".

Paul argues in Heb 8 that the "LAW of God is written on the heart" under the New Covenant.

BOTH Romans 2 and Rev 14 connect perseverance of the saints with keeping the Commandments - keeping the Law of God and both of them connet the future judgment with the Gospel.

The "saints" in Rev 14 are those who "Keep the Commandments of God".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

nor is it what the saints of Romans 2:11-16, or 26-29 are doing. [/QUOTE

There are no saints in either of these texts. There are not saints named. There are no saints inferred. He is simply setting forth the God's just criteria for judgment ACCORDING TO WORKS OF THE LAW and you cannot set that forth without considering both the negative and the positive or else there is no just criteria at all. He is not inferring that any human can acheive justification of life by the law but only giving the criteria and consequences for that just consideration. - period!

Nor is it what the saints of Romans 6 and Romans 8 are doing. Instead of "by their own attempts to keep the law" the born-again sainst "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh"

In Romans 6 and 8 he is not teaching justification nor sanctification by the Law but by faith through the power of the Spirit. The only aspect of our nature that is under law is "the flesh" and it will be destroyed by death. It is condemned and there is no salvation for it in this life at all. By faith we can overpower it through the Spirit so that the righteousness expressed by the Law can be manifested in our lives - by faith.

Paul says of the saints who are born again - with a new nature containing the Law of God "written on the heart" -- hint: the New Covenant of Hebrews 8 "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

The inward new man with the law written on a new heart as well as the power of the human will is unable to overcome the power of indwelling sin. The Law written outside or inside makes no difference. Just as we are "reckoned" to be righteous through faith so we must "reckon" by faith our victory over indwelling sin according to the very same basis - the substitutionary work of Jesus Christ - "As you received the Lord Jesus Christ SO WALK YE IN HIM" (Col. 2:6). Victory over indwelling sin does not come by the law written without or within but by faith in the power of the Spirit as we reckon ourselves to be dead in Christ and alive in the Spirit of God.

Paul is not calling the lost to this position because the lost are condemned by the Law.

Paul is not calling the saved to be justified or sanctified by the Law either. He is calling on the justified and sanctified believer in Christ to "reckon" it so according to his position and then by faith yeild to the power of the indwelling Spirit as he yeilded to the promise of the gospel.

This desire to continually "circle back" to the case of the lost - is why in Heb 5-6 Paul says that the church rem]]ains in infancy. And so in Heb 6:1 Paul says "LEAVING the elementary teaching... not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works"...

We are justified by faith without works and we are sanctified by faith without works because both are already ours in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:2-3). We simply have to walk by the same faith trusting in the indwelling Spirit of God to "work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure."

You want to start by faith but finish by the works of the law (Gal. 3:1-5) but with God's help!!!!!! You reject the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ and that we are already "sanctified "in Christ" as far as God's Law is concerned. It is not our works for God but God's work in us through faith. However, you want God to help YOU finish your salvation when Christ has already finished it and all you have to do is recognize it, reckon it done and then walk by faith yeilding to Him but not yeilding to him to finish your salvation, or justification or sanctification but yeilding so that he will be glorified through your worthless, imperfect existence as an UNPROFITABLE SERVANT.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The crux of the matter is the 'judgment' of Revelation 14 did not BEGIN IN 1844.

The Gospel began and ended in Jesus Christ from that he was born until he resurrected from the dead --- and THEREIN THE JUDGMENT of the Saved.

Take away the GOSPEL and pull from the fires of the SDA-'judgment' ALL ITS FUEL. 'The investigative judgment' is the fire of a judgment God did never light nor devil or wicked ever fuelled; it burns the Gospel to keep on consuming souls.

All this bickering over righteousness by works or faith or Election or Grace is but this IJ-hell's smoke fanned up by its inmates to cast a trap-cover over the depths of its dark pit.

BUT NEVER FORGET, you holy free-willers-other-than-SDAs: The Investigative Judgment devilish design's mastermind is the autonomous heart of its 'free-agents'.

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE=BobRyan;1622070]Originally Posted by BobRyan
In 2Cor 5:10 Paul says "WE Must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil"

some have suggested that "given an account" for good deeds results in heaven and for "evil deeds" results in "more heaven".

But that is not what Romans 6:23 says " the wages of sin is death".

Thus in 1John 2 - John makes the case that those who CLAIM to know God but engage in evil deeds show by their deeds that they do not know God.

The same point is made in Romans 2.

Obviously.

In Romans 2:13-16 we have the future Gospel judgment were saints are APPROVED (and the example given is one of a gentile with no access to the Bible at all).

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 …glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Remember(11 For there is no partiality with God. )

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


And we see again the everlasting Gospel connected to the future Judgment AND to perseverance in Rev 14:6-7

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Romans 2 and Rev 14 proclaim the same future Gospel judgment and both of them emphesize perseverance of the saints!

This may be "just so many Bible details to be ignored" for some - but for many Bible students - all of these details are "instructive" and accepted freely.

There are no saints in either of these texts. There are not saints named. There are no saints inferred.

You are welcome to your happy speculation

Let the objective unbiased reader read the texts above carefully and decide for themselves if they are sufficiently determined to turn a blind eye to the perseverance of the saints being described both in Romans 2 and in Rev 14.

It is a free will universe that God has created. To each his own.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Paul says of the saints who are born again - with a new nature containing the Law of God "written on the heart" -- hint: the New Covenant of Hebrews 8 "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Walter said:

The inward new man with the law written on a new heart as well as the power of the human will is unable to overcome the power of indwelling sin.

1 John 2 "These things I write unto that you sin NOT"

1Cor 10 "NO sin has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God is FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able"

And of course Romans 6 declares to the saints that if they declare themselves to be in slavery to obeying the law of sin they are servants of the one whom they obey.

In 1John 2 - we have the added point that if you claim to know Christ and yet walk in sin you are not telling the truth.

Rom 8:13-14 "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh you will live... for all who are being lead by the Spirit of God THESE are the sons of God"

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Originally Posted by Dr. Walter

This does not disprove my position in the least. John is simply providing evidences whereby one can know they have been born of God. Love responds in obedience to God's Word (1 Jn. 5:3-4).

How nice it is indeed to find a point of ageement.

 

[BobRyan]

At each point where I point to the "perseverance of the saints" the walk of the saints in obedience to God -- I remind the reader that we are not circling back to the POV of the lost - but we are looking at the context of the saved.

Bob said

Paul is not calling the lost to this position because the lost are condemned by the Law. The lost must first be born-again, saved, justified and walking by faith, "by the spirit puting to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8.

It is only that saved saint that engages in such a Romans 8 walk of faith.

But if we must continually "circle back" to the POV of the lost then we have to keep going to back to the fact that they must first repent TURN from their wicked ways - be "born-again" etc.

This desire to continually "circle back" to the case of the lost - is why in Heb 5-6 Paul says that the church remains in infancy. And so in Heb 6:1 Paul says "LEAVING the elementary teaching... not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works"...

Yet there are some Bible teachers today that would not have their readers, their followers, their congregations hear Paul on this point. They will instead "circle back" each time the subject of the Christian walk comes up because in that born-again context Paul insists "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God". 1Cor 7:19

Yet each time this discussion of the life of the save saint is introduced - Walter "circles back" to the POV of the lost declaring simple "basics" that a lost person cannot keep the law of God so well that they become justified.

Paul says in Heb 6:1 that at some point we need to leave the elementary teaching regarding the lost -- and move on to the teaching regarding the life of the saints.

ACCORDING TO WORKS OF THE LAW and you cannot set that forth without considering both the negative and the positive or else there is no just criteria at all. He is not inferring that any human can acheive justification of life by the law but only giving the criteria and consequences for that just consideration. - period!

In Romans 6 and 8 he is not teaching justification nor sanctification by the Law but by faith through the power of the Spirit.

"Indeed" Walter that is how "The lost become saved".

Your understanding of how the lost become saved is not being questioned.

Your denial of Romans 2:11-16 where Paul speaks of future justification and gives the example of the saved saint - in this case a gentile who has no access to the Bible at all - is open to question however because Paul brings this up in the context of perseverance of the saints, and the New birth experience with the indwelling Holy Spirit in the one that is a "Jew INWARDLY".

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 …glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Remember(11 For there is no partiality with God. )

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

While you may feel comfortable denying this text - there are many readers who will not go that far in denial of it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your denial of Romans 2:11-16 where Paul speaks of future justification and gives the example of the saved saint - in this case a gentile who has no access to the Bible at all

There is no example of any saved person in Romans 2:1-31 - nada! There is simply given the just criteria for one kind of person - the kind that comes before God to be judged by their own works and the just criteria and consequences God uses to judge works. That "one kind of person" is described for you in Romans 2:1-5 and Romans 2:17-3:18 - the kind that will not be justified by the law (Rom. 2:19-20).

Jesus denies that any Jew ever kept the the law and they had it written on their conscience and on stone or other materials and you think the Gentile who has nothing more then general revelation and the law written on conscience EXCEEDS the Jew???????????? Rom. 2:13-15 does not suggest that the Gentile does any better than the Jew but rather is without excuse as is the Jew.

Furthermore, you are making a big deal about how one becomes a Christian in contrast to how one lives a Christian life. Paul summed it up nicely when he said "AS ye have received the Lord Jesus Christ SO walk we ye in him" - Col. 2:6 but you claim that is circling back. We are justified by faith and we walk by faith. We have already been completely and perfectly justified and sanctified "in Christ" by grace alone through faith alone once for all (Heb. 10:10,14; 1 Cor. 1:3; Romans 5:2). We EXPERIENCE that position as we walk by faith in the Spirit and we EXPERIENCE death (separation from the EXPERIENCE of life in the Spirit) when we walk in the flesh but neither determine the outcome as Christ has already determined it by His own works and life FOR US.

Christ already knows "all" that the Father has given him (Jn. 10:28-30; Jn. 6:37-39) and already determined their salvation as though it were already finished in his sight (Rom. 8:28-39). There is no future investigative judgement where Christ has to figure out who are his and there is no future judgement in regard to etenal life and heaven as that has already been determined once for all at the point of regeneration/conversion/justification and so the beliver "shall not come into condmenation but is already passed from death to life" (Jn. 5:24).

You are teaching the same heresy taught among the Galatians that we begin by justification through faith without works but continue by our own works with God's help! That is the accursed gospel.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is a declaration not a set of conditions as there are no conditional clauses in this verse in English or in Greek.

The declaration is that the believer "shall not come into condemnation" in regard to any decisision or judgement by God concerning spiritual life or spiritual death as they have already passed from life to death at the point of regeneration/conversion when they became a believer. Hence, their own life has nothing to do with this decision, this transfer from death to life, this declaration they "shall not come into condemnation" in regard to future judgement about life and death.

However, true children of God can come into condemnation here and now when they walk in the flesh rather than in the Spirit, when they fail to "put on" the new man and wear the "old man." However, since their own life has nothing to eternal justification and eternal life as that is a done deal with no future consideration by God for change, then, this life has only to do with how the "house" is built rather than the foundation upon which it is built and has to do with present EXPERIENCE of eternal life in the form of spiritual blessings and future rewards (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

The eternally justified child of God can EXPERIENCE death in this present life EVERY SINGLE TIME they walk in the flesh:

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Roman 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This has nothing to do with eternal justification but with the present WALK here and now and the EXPERIENCE of either life or death (separation from God's fellowship, blessings):

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

See Romans 2:11-16 where Paul speaks of future justification and gives the example of the saved saint - in this case a gentile who has no access to the Bible at all - is open to question however because Paul brings this up in the context of perseverance of the saints, and the New birth experience with the indwelling Holy Spirit in the one that is a "Jew INWARDLY".

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 …glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Remember(11 For there is no partiality with God. )

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

While you may feel comfortable denying this text - there are many readers who will not go that far in denial of it.

There is no example of any saved person in Romans 2:1-31 - nada!

I see you have the need to keep telling yourself that.

But the unbiased objective readers will have to look at the actual words in the text above and see if your speculative assertion hold up to scripture.

There is simply given the just criteria for one kind of person - the kind that comes before God to be judged by their own works

Clearly if you carefully ignore all the succeeding cases in Romans 1 and in Romans 2 and in Romans 3 you could imagine that each of these chapters only deals with one kind of case - the failing case, as you are doing with Romans 2.

That is why I keep highlighting the very portions of Romans 2 you are so anxious to avoid.

Jesus denies that any Jew ever kept the the law and they had it written on their conscience and on stone or other materials and you think the Gentile who has nothing more then general revelation and the law written on conscience EXCEEDS the Jew???????????? Rom. 2:13-15 does not suggest that the Gentile does any better than the Jew but rather is without excuse as is the Jew.

At no point does Romans 2 claim that the Gentiles who are "a jew inwardly" with "circumcision of the heart done by the Holy Spirit" are "without excuse" for their obedience to God described in vs 26.

RATHER Paul makes the point that being a Jew is not going to save Jews and that in fact GENTILES are going to heaven some of them before Jews in cases where the Jews do not accept the Gospel but rather rely on their culture and family lineage for salvation.

Paul says there is SALVATION to the "Jew first and ALSO to the Gentile" in Romans 2 -- when he deals with the succeeding cases for both.

And of course all Christians today agree with that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Walter said -

Furthermore, you are making a big deal about how one becomes a Christian in contrast to how one lives a Christian life. Paul summed it up nicely when he said "AS ye have received the Lord Jesus Christ SO walk we ye in him" - Col. 2:6 but you claim that is circling back. We are justified by faith and we walk by faith. We have already been completely and perfectly justified and sanctified "in Christ" by grace alone through faith alone once for all (Heb. 10:10,14; 1 Cor. 1:3; Romans 5:2). We EXPERIENCE that position as we walk by faith in the Spirit and we EXPERIENCE death (separation from the EXPERIENCE of life in the Spirit) when we walk in the flesh but neither determine the outcome as Christ has already determined it by His own works and life FOR US.

Christ already knows "all" that the Father has given him (Jn. 10:28-30; Jn. 6:37-39) and already determined their salvation as though it were already finished in his sight (Rom. 8:28-39). There is no future investigative judgement where Christ has to figure out who are his and there is no future judgement in regard to etenal life and heaven as that has already been determined once for all at the point of regeneration/conversion/justification and so the beliver "shall not come into condmenation but is already passed from death to life" (Jn. 5:24).

You are teaching the same heresy taught among the Galatians that we begin by justification through faith without works but continue by our own works with God's help! That is the accursed gospel.

1. you are stuck on Romans 5:1 Justification PAST -- the POV of the lost in terms of justification. In Heb 6:1 Paul says that eventually the NT saints need to get past the POV of the lost.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,


2. In Romans 2:13-16 Paul explicitly points to future judgment and in Romans 2:6-13 Paul states the basis for that judgment. In 2Cor 5:10 Paul refers to that judgment.

3. In Romans 2:6-16 and in Rev 14:6-7, 12 we see the issue of perseverance of the saints in the context of that future judgment.

Pretty hard to ignore - though your efforts to do so are impressive

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is a declaration not a set of conditions as there are no conditional clauses in this verse in English or in Greek.

.

In John 5 Christ speaks of passing out of condemenation.

In Gal 3 and in Romans 3 Paul states clearly that all the world is under condemnation and in need of a Savior.

Your clear vision of the POV of the lost works well in these cases because they all deal with how a lost person would become saved - a born again saint.

Then as Paul says in Heb 6:1 we move beyond the POV of the lost.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

And in so doing we get to the Romans 2:6-16 issue of "perseverance of the saints" Rom 2:6 and the future judgment "on the day when according to my gospel God WILL judge" Rom 2:16.

Just as we see in Rev 14:6-7, 12.

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There is no future investigative judgement where Christ has to figure out who are his and there is no future judgement in regard to etenal life and heaven as that has already been determined once for all at the point of regeneration/conversion/justification and so the beliver "shall not come into condmenation but is already passed from death to life" (Jn. 5:24).

By contrast - scripture says that some time after the fall of the Roman empire "The court sat and the books were opened" Dan 7:9-10 and in this future-to-the-fall-of-Rome judgment event the result is that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22. As Dan 7 points out the "Ancient of Days" God the Father is presiding.

This is not a case of God trying to figure anything out - it is a case of a court room filled with myriads and myriads of non-God beings in true Job 1 fashion and "evidence" -- compelling data being presented in the context of God's free will universe just as we see it in Job 1 and Job 2.

This is the future judgment of Rev 14:6-7.

It is the same future judgment predicted by Paul in Rom 2:13-16 and in 2Cor 5:10.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Roman 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This has nothing to do with eternal justification but with the present WALK here and now and the EXPERIENCE of either life or death (separation from God's fellowship, blessings):

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

In Gal 5:4 "You have been SEVERED from Christ... you have FALLEN from Grace" is the condition of the formerly joined-to-Christ and under-grace saint that has now chosen to reject faith.

But there is good news for them as we see in Romans 11:23 "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief".

You keep seeking a way to turn this into OSAS. Seems like that is better suited to another thread.

Paul speaking to saved saints says "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 and John argues that those who refuse to walk as Christ walked - who refuse to Keep His Commandments are not telling the truth about their current standing with Christ.

in Rev 14:6,7,12 we see this "perseverance of the saints" teaching connected to the future judgment just as we see it in Rom 2:6-16.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is a declaration not a set of conditions as there are no conditional clauses in this verse in English or in Greek.

The declaration is that the believer "shall not come into condemnation" in regard to any decisision or judgement by God concerning spiritual life or spiritual death as they have already passed from life to death at the point of regeneration/conversion when they became a believer. Hence, their own life has nothing to do with this decision, this transfer from death to life, this declaration they "shall not come into condemnation" in regard to future judgement about life and death.

However, true children of God can come into condemnation here and now when they walk in the flesh rather than in the Spirit, when they fail to "put on" the new man and wear the "old man." However, since their own life has nothing to eternal justification and eternal life as that is a done deal with no future consideration by God for change, then, this life has only to do with how the "house" is built rather than the foundation upon which it is built and has to do with present EXPERIENCE of eternal life in the form of spiritual blessings and future rewards (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

The eternally justified child of God can EXPERIENCE death in this present life EVERY SINGLE TIME they walk in the flesh:

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Roman 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This has nothing to do with eternal justification but with the present WALK here and now and the EXPERIENCE of either life or death (separation from God's fellowship, blessings):

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

GE:

Dr Walter, this has been the most difficult statement I have yet read of yours. I CAN not at this stage say I do not accept what I THINK you are saying here.

Kindly please elaborate on this? I think it of absolute importance --- feel it sort of. This isn't Kindergarten. If what you teach or want to teach is in harmony with ORDINARY Reformed Faith, help us (or me) out with other thinkers' explanations?

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:

Dr Walter, this has been the most difficult statement I have yet read of yours. I CAN not at this stage say I do not accept what I THINK you are saying here.

Kindly please elaborate on this? I think it of absolute importance --- feel it sort of. This isn't Kindergarten. If what you teach or want to teach is in harmony with ORDINARY Reformed Faith, help us (or me) out with other thinkers' explanations?

Most evangelical's think of "death" either as (1) physical - separation of material from immaterial; (2) spiritual - separation of the human spirit from the life of God or eternal - (3) Judicial - judgement that eventually ends with separation of the whole man from God in Gehenna.

Most evangelicals thing of life as (1) Biological life; (2) spiritual union with God here and now - regeneration; (3) Judicial - justification of life that eventually ends in bringing of the whole person into heaven with God forever.

However, there is a fourth aspect of life and death peculiar only to the child of God here and now. The child of God is the only creature in God's universe wherein both indwelling sin (Rom. 7:17,20) and a new inward man (Rom. 7:22) are both united in one person so that "with the flesh" they serve the law of sin but with the mind they serve the Law of God (Rom. 7:25).

To say this another way, the child of God here and now is the only creature who can "put on" and "put off" both the "new" and the "old"man.

To say this another way, the child of God here and now is the only creature who can "walk in the flesh" or "walk in the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16;25).

Hence, there is another aspect of life and death peculiar to the child of God here and now. It is the TEMPORAL EXPERIENCE of life and death. As the child of God puts on the new man he EXPERIENCE the benefits of eternal life here and now. As the child of God "walks in the flesh" he walks in the ways of death here an now.

Every time a child of God walks in the flesh he reaps EXPERIENTIAL death and that aspect of his life is lost/separated from the cause of Christ, for the glory of God and from experiential blessings. When he walks in the Spirit that time is "redeemed" (Eph. 5:16) for the glory of God and for rewards and EXPERIENCES the blessings of eternal life.

In Romans 6 Paul argues that justification by grace does not promote sin because where there is justification there is regeneration and this is clearly manifest in the symbolism of baptism as there is a death inferred by the burial in water but it does not end there. In baptism there is also a likeness of the resurrection. We obtain both judicially in regard to our position (dead to sin and alive to God) by faith. However, how do we obtain them EXPERIENTIALLY?? There is no such thing as a person who has been freed from being a servant of sin who is not thereby made a servant of righteousness but it is not due to the law or to self - that is the thesis of chapter six.
Therefore, the question of chapter seven and eight deals with HOW does this become the EXPERIENCE in the life of a child of God. Romans 7:1-5 claims we are "dead" to the law through Christ and that the righteousness of the law is not imparted by the Law to the lost (Rom. 7:7-13) and neither can the law impart its righteousness to the saved even though the saved is willing (Rom. 7:14-25) to obey the Law. Romans 7:14-25 considers the problem of indwelling sin and the powerlessness of both the Law and the renewed will of the believer to overcome it. Romans 7:14-25 is the experience of the saved as well as Romans 8. Paul tells believers to "put off" the old man (Rom. 7:14-25) and "put on" the new man (Rom. 8). He tells them not to "walk in the flesh" (Rom. 7:14-25) but "walk in the Spirit" (Rom. 8).

When we walk in the Spirit, put on the new man - there is no EXPERIENTIAL CONDEMNATION (Rom. 7:14-25) which Paul describes as the body of "THIS DEATH" but there is EXPERIENTIAL "life and peace."

There is our JUDICIAL POSITION "in Christ" where there is no condemnation and where we shall never come into condemantion (Jn. 5:24) in regard to ETERNAL life or ETERNAL death. However, there is also the EXPERIENTIAL or our "walk" and as we walk "in Christ" there is no TEMPORAL EXPERIENTIAL death but TEMPORAL "life and peace."

Romans 3:20-5:20 deals with our LEGAL POSITION in Christ by faith. Romans 6 deals with the TRANSITION from LEGAL to EXPERIENTIAL. Romans 7 denies that the Law or will power is the means for EXPERIENTIAL in either the lost or saved man. Romans 8 teaches that the EXPERIENTIAL is obtained by faith just as the LEGAL is obtained by faith (Rom. 7:24a). However, we do not always "walk in the Spirit" and we do not always live by faith and we do not always put on the Spirit (Rom. 8) but at times we walk in the flesh (Rom. 7) and when we do we EXPERIENCE "this body OF DEATH." When we do we are SEPARATED from the blessings of eternal life during that time of walking in the flesh. We are SEPARATED from joy and peace and consciousness of God's presence and any tangible assurance of salvation.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In John 5 Christ speaks of passing out of condemenation.
QUOTE]

Every false interpretation is based upon either ignoring the explicit language of the text or intepreting the clear by the unclear and you do both in regard to John 5:24.

The Greek text uses the future tense "shall not come" into condemnation which is a complete contradiction to your doctrine. The Greek term translated "passed" is the perfect tense which demands a COMPLETED ACTION in the past with continuing results. You attempt to translate it as a common present tense verb. Of course you are forced to do this by your false doctrine and this is what you will do with any clear langauge that exposes your error.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rom. 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Allow me to attempt to explain this text in its context that may be somewhat different than you have view it before. In Romans 7 Paul has proved that the Christian is legally and positionally "dead" to the Law (Rom. 7:1-6). He further proves that the law is incapable of producing righteousness in a lost person, not because the law is sin but because of the flesh (Rom. 7:17-13). Furthermore, he proves that the law is incapable of producing righteousness in the saved person (Rom. 7:14-25) even though the redeemed man is willing to do righteousness. Neither the law or the redeemed human will has power to overcome indwelling sin.

In addition, Paul has pointed out that the source of sin in the Christian is not the whole person (vv. 17-18, 20). Even though he is not denying responsibility for sin as a whole person he is denying that sin originates with the whole person but has it origin with indwelling sin "in the flesh."

He concludes Romans 7 by declaring that the present state of a child of God is a split into two opposing servitudes. "With the flesh" Paul now serves the law of sin but with the mind he serves the Law of God.

Please consider Romans 7:14-24 as equal to the state of a Christian who needs to "walk in the Spirit" but is walking "in the flesh." Please consider Romans 7:14-24 as equal to the state of a Christian who needs to "put on the new" but has on "the old man."

The child of God is the only creature who can either "walk in the flesh" (Rom. 7:14-24) or "walk in the Spirit" (Rom. 8). He is the only creature who can "put off the old man" (Rom. 7:14-24) or "put on the new man" (Rom. 8).

This state of walking after the flesh or living after the "old man" (Rom. 7:14-24) is summarized in the analogy of the practice of the Roman soldiers who would fasten a dead corpse to a living prisoner. They would fasten them together face to face, shoulder to shoulder, arm to arm, waist to waist, led to leg and Paul calls that condition "THIS DEATH."

May I suggest that when you walk after the flesh or at any time the "old man" is not put off that you are EXPERIENCING that condition of "DEATH." Death is "separation." Physical death is separation of body from the spirit. Spiritual death is separation of the human spirit from the Spirit of God. Eternal death is separation of the whole man from God in Gehenna.

However, the saved man here and now is the only creature who can experience "now" a fourth kind of life and death - EXPERIENTIAL life and death.

When you walk in the flesh and whenever the old man is in charge you are TEMPORALLY SEPARATED from EXPERIENCING eternal life in Christ. You are separated from EXPERIENCING the peace of God, the blessings of God and fellowship with God. As you walk in the Spirit and put on the new man you EXPERIENCE the life of God here and now. You experience peace, joy, fellowship, blessings.

Whatever period of time you are walking in the Spirit you REDEEM THE TIME or make it count for the glory of God, obtain rewards in heaven and EXPERIENCE life in the Spirit. Whatever period of time you walk in the flesh you are SEPARATED forever from that time, it is lost, it does not count for the glory of God, it does not gain rewards and you are SEPARATED from the experiential blessings of eternal life.

Now, Romans 7:14-25 describes that period of time when you are living in the face of DEATH - that old corpse - defeat, frustration, loss of time, loss of rewards, loss of blessing, thus SEPARATED from eternal life EXPERIENTIALLY. That is the "CONDEMNATION" that Romans 8:1 refers to rather than the condemnation John 5:24 refers to in reference to future judgement before God that concerns eternal life and eternal death.

There is no condemnation "NOW" for those who are "in Christ Jesus" in regard to their EXPERIENTIAL LIFE. That means when they are walking in the Spirit (Rom. 8:10-13) rather than walking in the flesh (Rom. 8:1,4).

The secret of overcoming the law of sin and death (Rom. 7:14-25) is not found in obedience by the flesh to the law but is found in the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:2). Like the lost man who is "in the flesh" when a saved man chooses to walk "after" the flesh will experience only death (Rom. 8:5-8). However, unlike the lost man who is "in the flesh" we are not "in the flesh" but "in the Spirit" if we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us (Rom. 8:9). Therefore the Spirit of God that is in us was also in Christ and gave him power over death by raising his dead body from the grave. Likewise, we are not debtors to live after the flesh for when we do, we shall experience death. We can put to death the power of indwelling sin by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:10-13).

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal. 5:25 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

When we walk in sin (Gal. 5:19-21) these are the WAYS OF DEATH.

Christians can walk in these ways or in the flesh (I Cor. 5:11, 3:1-3). The widow sister at the church of Ephesus is "dead" while living in pleasure (1 Tim. 5:6). This is the "brother" you can save from "death" in James 5:19-20.

I believe understanding these truths are the keys to spiritual growth as spiritual growth is nothing more than progressing in your daily battle against indwelling sin. We lose many skirmishes with indwelling sin but the war has been already won by the life of Christ in the flesh and the consequences of our sins has already been fully paid in the death of Christ in the flesh. Remember our life is not lived to gain or lose heaven but to glorify God, experience life in Christ and gain eternal rewards in heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In John 5 Christ speaks of passing out of condemenation.

In Gal 3 and in Romans 3 Paul states clearly that all the world is under condemnation and in need of a Savior.

In Gal 3 - all the world (yes every single person) stands condemned before God - by the Law of God, for all have sinned, the law speaks to ALL to their need of Salvation and those who accept Christ as Savior pass from death into life.

In Romans 3 all have sinned and fallen short, and in Romans 3 the Law holds the "entire world" accountable. But some of us choose to accept the Gospel and in so doing - pass out of death into life.


This is of course the "elementary principle " of the Gospel mentioned in Heb 6:1 regarding the POV of the lost and how it is that the lost person passes from death into life.



Walter - your clear vision of the POV of the lost works well in these cases because they all deal with how a lost person would become saved - a born again saint.

Then as Paul says in Heb 6:1 we move beyond the POV of the lost.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Walter said -
Every false interpretation is based upon either ignoring the explicit language of the text or intepreting the clear by the unclear and you do both in regard to John 5:24.

Your objection is duley noted.

When we move beyond the basic element of the lost "passing from death into life" we then get to the Romans 2:6-16 issue of "perseverance of the saints" Rom 2:6 and the future judgment "on the day when according to my gospel God WILL judge" Rom 2:16.

Just as we see in Rev 14:6-7, 12.

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

Christians can walk in these ways or in the flesh (I Cor. 5:11, 3:1-3).

In 1Cor 5 Paul demands that the church expell the one living in sin.

In 1Cor 6 Paul makes the clear point "BE not Deceived" and then spells it out for them lest they begin to "imagine" something of the form "yes we live in sin but we go to heaven anyway"

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

How often the Bible speaks of this "Be not deceived" idea in relation to the thinking that living in sin will get you to heaven "anyway".

Matt 7 "NOT everyone that SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the Will of My Father who is in Heaven"

Paul spends all of Romans 2 making that same Matt 7 point!

in Christ,

Bob