What matters is keeping the Commandments of God

[Dr. Walter]

In Gal 3 - all the world (yes every single person) stands condemned before God - by the Law of God, for all have sinned, the law speaks to ALL to their need of Salvation and those who accept Christ as Savior pass from death into life.

You move from one eisegetial mistake to another as one error leads to another error. First, Galatians 3:1-12 has nothing to do with the lost and the law. The context is speaking about the relationship of those who BEGIN salvation as justified by faith but then attemp to FINISH salvation by justification by works of the law. Paul's conclusion is that the Law cannot justify anyone saved or lost "no man" as "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH" and justification is by faith.


Gal. 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal. 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith:

In Romans 3 all have sinned and fallen short, and in Romans 3 the Law holds the "entire world" accountable. But some of us choose to accept the Gospel and in so doing - pass out of death into life.

Again, your interpetation is a PERVERSION of John 5:24 and what the text technically says. There is no present tense action "pass out of death" but a completed action "PASSED FROM" that stands completed as a present result. Why not be honest enough to translate the Perfect tense COMPLETED ACTION rather than pervert it into a INCOMPLETED ACTION??????? What about intellectual honesy????? You have not made any point. You have simply demonstrated your unwillingness to be honest with the texts you are using. Galatians 3 is talking about CHRISTIANS who begin one way (justified by faith" and try to continue another way "justification by works of the law" when in fact you cannot mix them as "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH." Furthermore, there is no need to mix them because the believer has already and completely passed from death to life and that will not change because they "SHALL NOT COME" into condemnation.

This is of course the "elementary principle " of the Gospel mentioned in Heb 6:1 regarding the POV of the lost and how it is that the lost person passes from death into life.

What you call the elementary principle is something you have yet to learn - "REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS." This is not just referring to initial justification of the believer this talking about the whole principle of justification by works (Rom. 3:27-28) as it has no place in Biblical salvation at all - nada, Zip! We are not justified by Lawkeeping and we are not sanctified by Law keeping we are "dead" to the law in regard to both justification and sanctification. We are justified by faith and we are sanctified by faith by a principle above law keeping.

When we move beyond the basic element of the lost "passing from death into life" we then get to the Romans 2:6-16 issue of "perseverance of the saints" Rom 2:6 and the future judgment "on the day when according to my gospel God WILL judge" Rom 2:16.

Again, you have not even acheived the first principle of "Repentance from dead works." Again, you ignore the relationship of "passed from death unto life" with "SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION." Instead, you are jerking one phrase of John 5:24 out of context forcing it into a context of your choosing and then twisting the scripture to satisfy your "belly" (desires). Romans 2;6 IS THE VERY CONDEMNATION THAT JOHN 5:24 SAYS THE ONE PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE SHALL NOT COME INTO. The Roman 2:6 context has to do with those who are not believers in Christ BECAUSE they believe they can be justified before God due to their own works.

Just as we see in Rev 14:6-7, 12.

Revelation 14:6-7 has to do with the only gospel there is, as the eternal gospel is the good news of "the blood of the everlasting covenant"! Either you and your own works stand before the judgement of God or Christ stands in his own works before God in your behalf! Either you are the object of God's wrath or Christ was the object in your behalf. Those in n Revelation 14 choose the latter and the consequence is Revelation 14:8-10.

Salvation does not begin one way and continue another way but that is exactly what you are teaching and this exactly what your argument about circuling is all about. You do not begin by justification through faith and continue by Law keeping = that is "another" gospel and only those "accursed" teach it (Gal. 1:8-9).

 

[Dr. Walter]

By contrast - scripture says that some time after the fall of the Roman empire "The court sat and the books were opened" Dan 7:9-10 and in this future-to-the-fall-of-Rome judgment event the result is that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22. As Dan 7 points out the "Ancient of Days" God the Father is presiding.

This is not a case of God trying to figure anything out - it is a case of a court room filled with myriads and myriads of non-God beings in true Job 1 fashion and "evidence" -- compelling data being presented in the context of God's free will universe just as we see it in Job 1 and Job 2.

Daniel 7 is filled with SUMMARIES and it is no place to define doctrine just like Revelation is no place to define doctrine. What you are doing is what every cult does - they go to books like Revelation where the author tells you up front it is conveyed in symbols "signified" (Rev. 1:1) or books about eschatology that are full of SYMBOLs and establish their doctrines. That is backwards and unscholarly. You established doctrine on plain precepts and unambiguous language and then use parables, symbols, spiritualizations, etc. to support it.

 

[BobRyan]

So far in my review of Hebrews and the High Priestly role of Christ I have shown that the Lev 16 concept of Atonement goes BEYOND vs 9 (Lev 16:9) where the sin offering is slain. The chapters does not end there.

It continues with the work of the High Priest in the Sanctuary.

2. Then I show that Heb 8 points to Christ as starting His High Priestly role for us in heaven's antitypical Sanctuary - at His ascension. Noting that the text says that "If He were on earth He would NOT be a priest at all". Heb 8:4

3. And a side note was added that by expanding the Atonement concept to include BOTH the work of Christ at the cross AND the work of Christ in heaven as our High Priest - the limited-atonement argument for Calvinism is no longer a way to argue for arbitrary selection with Arminians.

So while the points are favorable to the Arminian POV so far - they have yet to be "distinctly Seventh-day Adventist". But fear not - that part is coming soon.

But first note that in Dan 9 you have the 70 week prophecy (vs2 4) - (490 years in Daniel's day for a year model) - pointing down to the coming of "Messiah the Prince" (vs 25). This predicts the first coming of Christ (annointed at His baptism for ministry) - and it also predicts his 3 and a half year minstry after which He was "cut off" - crucified.

The fact that Daniel is using a day for a year ruler in his vision is accepted by almost every denomination on the planet.

(THis post was meant for the Atonement thread)

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=69284

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 7 is filled with SUMMARIES and it is no place to define doctrine just like Revelation is no place to define doctrine. .

So much Bible to ignore - so little time???

What is up with that??

In Matt 24 Christ said "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" -- is this also a good thing to ignore?

In Dan 9 we have the 490 year prophecy that predicts the coming of Christ as Messiah -- also more vision and prophecy to be ignored?

Where does it end?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

So far in my review of Hebrews and the High Priestly role of Christ I have shown that the Lev 16 concept of Atonement goes BEYOND vs 9 (Lev 16:9) where the sin offering is slain. The chapters does not end there.

You have shown no such thing. All you have shown is complete ignorance of Biblical typology. Jesus as the High Priest is SEATED in heaven demonstrating there is no continuing work in heaven as High Preist. What is in heaven is the FINISHED WORK OF ATONEMENT in His own Person as the work has been accomplished on the cross, demonstrated as completed by the resurrection and then presented in heaven as completed and that is why he is SEATED. The application of it ON EARTH is what is not completed. As the elect are physically born in time and space the finished work is then applied (Gal. 1:15-16).

 

[Dr. Walter]

So much Bible to ignore - so little time???

What is up with that??

In Matt 24 Christ said "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" -- is this also a good thing to ignore?

In Dan 9 we have the 490 year prophecy that predicts the coming of Christ as Messiah -- also more vision and prophecy to be ignored?

Where does it end?

in Christ,

Bob

Read the rest of the post! You are approaching scripture like any normal cultist who cannot deal with unambigious plain precepts but must go to highly symbolic prophetic texts to establish their doctrine. This is the Jehovah's Witness, World Wide Church of God, Mormon type of eisgetical norm - welcome to their club.

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 24 Christ said "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" -- is this also a good thing to ignore?

In Dan 9 we have the 490 year prophecy that predicts the coming of Christ as Messiah -- also more vision and prophecy to be ignored?


I realize that a generous amount of pulpit pounding is supposed to "fix" those texts to fit your wild statement that we should not look at the prophecies in Daniel for doctrine -- but... err.. umm... not for the bible student.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I said

When we move beyond the basic element of the lost "passing from death into life" we then get to the Romans 2:6-16 issue of "perseverance of the saints" Rom 2:6 and the future judgment "on the day when according to my gospel God WILL judge" Rom 2:16.

Just as we see in Rev 14:6-7, 12.

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Revelation 14:6-7 has to do with the only gospel there is, as the eternal gospel is the good news of "the blood of the everlasting covenant"!

Now see! We do agree on something!

Salvation does not begin one way and continue another way but that is exactly what you are teaching and this exactly what your argument about circuling is all about. You do not begin by justification through faith and continue by Law keeping = that is "another" gospel and only those "accursed" teach it (Gal. 1:8-9).

Again - by clinging to the POV of the lost when it comes to the Law of God you miss the teaching of Scripture and we have to go back "once again" to the elementary principles of the Gospel.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,


2. In Romans 2:13-16 Paul explicitly points to future judgment and in Romans 2:6-13 Paul states the basis for that judgment. In 2Cor 5:10 Paul refers to that judgment.

3. In Romans 2:6-16 and in Rev 14:6-7, 12 we see the issue of perseverance of the saints in the context of that future judgment.


In the first example of Justification - in the context of Romans 5:1 the POV of the lost that becomes saved - we have instant justification at the point that the sinner chooses Christ. Here Dr. Walter you have perfect clarity.

But in the Rom 2:13 context of FUTURE justification (also seen in James 2 "You see then that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone") we have an entirely different context for justification. In that Romans 2:13 and James to FUTURE justification it is the case of the Matt 7 "good tree" that is SEEN to show "good fruit".

Obviously that does not work for the lost - because the fruit we expect from a "bad tree" is bad fruit. (See Matt 7 for details).

To constantly "circle back" each time we talk about a good tree having good fruit and saying "oh but there is no way for a bad tree to have good fruit" you miss the entire lesson of scripture because you only allow the context of a "bad tree".

Paul says in Heb 6 that such a POV will leave the Christian at the point of infancy.

At times you appear to grasp this concept as in the case below -

Walter
The secret of overcoming the law of sin and death (Rom. 7:14-25) is not found in obedience by the flesh to the law but is found in the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:2). Like the lost man who is "in the flesh" when a saved man chooses to walk "after" the flesh will experience only death (Rom. 8:5-8). However, unlike the lost man who is "in the flesh" we are not "in the flesh" but "in the Spirit" if we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us (Rom. 8:9). Therefore the Spirit of God that is in us was also in Christ and gave him power over death by raising his dead body from the grave. Likewise, we are not debtors to live after the flesh for when we do, we shall experience death. We can put to death the power of indwelling sin by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:10-13).

There you do just fine.

But any discussion of the saint in that condition that speaks to the subject of Rom 2:6-7 "perseverance" as we see in Rev 14:12 -- and you fall off the horse again wanting to discuss the means by which a lost person can be changed, born-again and accepted by God. Back to the Heb 6:1 problem all over again.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

In Matt 24 Christ said "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" -- is this also a good thing to ignore?

In Dan 9 we have the 490 year prophecy that predicts the coming of Christ as Messiah -- also more vision and prophecy to be ignored?


I realize that a generous amount of pulpit pounding is supposed to "fix" those texts to fit your wild statement that we should not look at the prophecies in Daniel for doctrine -- but... err.. umm... not for the bible student.

in Christ,

Bob

You simply don't get it! You don't build your basic and essential doctrine of salvation on escahatalogical interpretations that depend upon interpretation of other scriptures that are highly symbolic. That is a practice that characterizes cults like SDA, LDS and JW's. You build it upon clear unambiguous precepts taught in contexts that are written to expound essential Christian doctrine. Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation are the last places to go to find foundations for basic doctrines. You go to those books for support of clear unambiguous precepts.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Again - by clinging to the POV of the lost when it comes to the Law of God you miss the teaching of Scripture and we have to go back "once again" to the elementary principles of the Gospel.

Either you are incapable of reading English or you simply ignored the bulk of my post. You have not even learned the first principle "repentance from dead works" in regard to either the lost man or the saved man. So there is no circling at all. "Repentance from dead works" is the turning away from works altogether for the justification of the lost or the sanctification of the saved as neither are justified or sanctified by works.

You ignore the fact that Galatians 3 is talking to CHRISTIANS who already have been justified by faith but want to CONTINUE being justified by works just like you are teaching. He is not talking about THE LOST but he is addressing and talking about those who have already been Justified by faith but now want to finish it by works.

Sanctification by the Spirit of God is by faith not by works and Paul makes this clear by denying that "THE LAW" is of faith!!!!! However, you are teaching that THE LAW IS OF FAITH as the law is accomplished through us by the help of the Holy Spirit so that we obey the law. Paul is repudiating "THE LAW" as applicable to "FAITH" period!

There is a "law" by which we are justified and by which we are sanctified but it does not include or involve THE LAW given to Moses on stone or on skins or paper. It is the "law" of faith (Rom. 3:27-28) which has for its sole object the FINISHED WORKS of Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:24-26) which positionally justifies us before God completely and fully and which is His finished righteousness imparted into our experience by faith through the power of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God works in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13). This is how the law is fulfilled in us (Rom. 8:4) bythe Spirit of God. It is not by our obedience to the Ten commandmants or any other Law but by Christ obedience worked in and through us through faith by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.

2. In Romans 2:13-16 Paul explicitly points to future judgment and in Romans 2:6-13 Paul states the basis for that judgment. In 2Cor 5:10 Paul refers to that judgment.

You need to learn the first principle "repentance from dead works" as Romans 2:6 is smack in the context of LOST SELF-RIGHTEOUS humans who beleive they can pass the judgement BY THEIR OWN WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS without faith in Christ or anyone else.

3. In Romans 2:6-16 and in Rev 14:6-7, 12 we see the issue of perseverance of the saints in the context of that future judgment.

There are no saved mentioned in either text just your pure but false imagination gone wild.

To constantly "circle back" each time we talk about a good tree having good fruit and saying "oh but there is no way for a bad tree to have good fruit" you miss the entire lesson of scripture because you only allow the context of a "bad tree".

Your analogy is wrong. The bad tree made good refers to the work of regeneration not justification. That is why you are confused because you confuse justification with regeneration. Regeneration has to do with your PERSON but justification has to do with your LEGAL RIGHTS or POSITION in the COURT of God and always is FORENSIC when used in connection with the LAW of God. It is the legal declaration of not guilty before God due to Christ's righteousness not yours.

Justification does not change the nature or character of the "ungodly" but changes his legal position before God from "guilty" to "not guilty" due to IMPUTED not IMPARTED righteousness. According to his PERSON he is still "ungodly" by definition of James 2:10 but according to his POSITION he is "godly" by definition of Romans 4:5-6 "without works" by IMPUTED righteousness. He is justified "BY FAITH' without works.

Now, let us proceed to Sanctification. How is a child of God sanctified? Is he sanctified by LAW KEEPING? No! He was not justified by law keeping and he is not sanctified by law keeping. He is sanctified the very same way he was justified - or as Paul summarizes it "AS you RECEIVED the Lord Jesus Christ SO walk ye in him."

Bob, How do you receive Jesus Christ? By lawkeeping plus faith? No, because "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH" (Gal. 3:12). How then are you sanctified or "WALK YE"? Just as you received - by faith! By lawkeeping? No, because "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH." You walk as you received "BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS". How does that work? You are sanctified just like you were justified by faith. Faith lays hold of the promise of God in Christ and depends upon His power to accomplish His promise (Rom. 4:20) and that is how the Spirit of God "works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." The Spirit of God empowers the inward man who is created in true righteousness and holiness and to be expressed in your words and actions. This is walking in the Spirit. This is putting on the new man. This is how the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in your life. It is not law keeping but yeilding to the Spirit by faith in Him to do His work through you as a vessel in the hands of the potter. It is not a matter of doing it is a matter of yielding unto Him to do what He has promised to do through you.

 

[BobRyan]

Your analogy is wrong. The bad tree made good refers to the work of regeneration not justification. That is why you are confused because you confuse justification with regeneration. Regeneration has to do with your PERSON but justification has to do with your LEGAL RIGHTS or POSITION in the COURT of God and always is FORENSIC when used in connection with the LAW of God. It is the legal declaration of not guilty before God due to Christ's righteousness not yours.

Justification does not change the nature or character of the "ungodly" but changes his legal position before God from "guilty" to "not guilty" due to IMPUTED not IMPARTED righteousness.

They happen at the same instant "If any one is IN Christ he IS a new creation old things are passed away ALL things are become new" 2Cor 5.

"Having been JUSTIFIED by faith WE HAVE peace with God" Rom 5:1.

Your claim that the justified person is "ungodly" is wildly speculative and at a great distance from the text of scripture.

According to his PERSON he is still "ungodly" by definition of James 2:10

James does NOT say that justified saints are "ungodly".

In Romans 11 the saints remain justified and at peace with God - "IF you continue in his kindness otherwise you too will be cut off".

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

There is no "ungodly justified" in scripture.

It may be good man-made tradition to imagine such a thing but it is poor Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Again - by clinging to the POV of the lost when it comes to the Law of God you miss the teaching of Scripture and we have to go back "once again" to the elementary principles of the Gospel.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,


2. In Romans 2:13-16 Paul explicitly points to future judgment and in Romans 2:6-13 Paul states the basis for that judgment. In 2Cor 5:10 Paul refers to that judgment.

3. In Romans 2:6-16 and in Rev 14:6-7, 12 we see the issue of perseverance of the saints in the context of that future judgment.


In the first example of Justification - in the context of Romans 5:1 the POV of the lost that becomes saved - we have instant justification at the point that the sinner chooses Christ. Here Dr. Walter you have perfect clarity.

But in the Rom 2:13 context of FUTURE justification (also seen in James 2 "You see then that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by faith alone") we have an entirely different context for justification. In that Romans 2:13 and James to FUTURE justification it is the case of the Matt 7 "good tree" that is SEEN to show "good fruit".

Obviously that does not work for the lost - because the fruit we expect from a "bad tree" is bad fruit. (See Matt 7 for details).

To constantly "circle back" each time we talk about a good tree having good fruit and saying "oh but there is no way for a bad tree to have good fruit" you miss the entire lesson of scripture because you only allow the context of a "bad tree".

Paul says in Heb 6 that such a POV will leave the Christian at the point of infancy.

Which means we will of course be asked to go back to the beginning.

Walter asks -
Bob, How do you receive Jesus Christ? By lawkeeping plus faith? No, because "THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH" (Gal. 3:12).

1. The lost person (the bad tree) does not demonstrate by their fruits (bad fruit) that they are a good tree. This concept cannot be any simpler -- hopefully we both agree.

2. The born-again saved saint is "a new creation" at the very instant he is "IN CHRIST" 2Cor 5. A GOOD tree.

How do they become a good tree? They respond to the Holy Spirit "convicting the world of sin and righteousness and judgment" (John 16) and in so doing are born again.

Now as a GOOD tree they are to produce GOOD fruit. At no point was the BAD tree being asked to produce Good fruit. Only to repent and turn from darkness and rebellion.

The same by faith alone decision that chooses to follow Christ (take up your cross and follow Me Matt 10) is the same by faith alone decision making that CONTINUED to choose to follow Christ as the saved saint.

Walter said

How then are you sanctified or "WALK YE"? Just as you received - by faith!

And so we agree to that point.

You walk by faith the whole way. And as Christ said - the good tree produces good fruit.

Thus Paul is correct in 1Cor 6 in emphasis - "do not be deceived" for those who imagine that "ungodly people are going to heaven without a new heart new-creation change".

Faith lays hold of the promise of God in Christ and depends upon His power to accomplish His promise (Rom. 4:20) and that is how the Spirit of God "works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." The Spirit of God empowers the inward man who is created in true righteousness and holiness and to be expressed in your words and actions. This is walking in the Spirit.

Agreed.

IF anyone is in Christ Jesus he is a new creation and it is the new creation that is to produce the good fruits of Matt 7.

Not everyone who SAYS Lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father -- Matt 7.

"Not the hearers of the law ARE just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justiFIED" (and in that case we are talking about future "will be" justification on the day "when According to my GOSPEL God will judge"Rom 2:16)

Thus PAUL can say "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Your clear vision of the POV of the lost works well in these cases because they all deal with how a lost person would become saved - a born again saint.

Then as Paul says in Heb 6:1 we move beyond the POV of the lost.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

And in so doing we get to the Romans 2:6-16 issue of "perseverance of the saints" Rom 2:6 and the future judgment "on the day when according to my gospel God WILL judge" Rom 2:16.

Just as we see in Rev 14:6-7, 12.

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus

There are no saved mentioned in either text just your pure but false imagination gone wild.

Our differences illustrated perfectly in that set of quotes.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:6 is smack in the context of LOST SELF-RIGHTEOUS humans who beleive they can pass the judgement BY THEIR OWN WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS without faith in Christ or anyone else.

Romans chapter 1 contains references to BOTH the Lost AND the saved.

Romans 3 contains references to BOTH the lost and saved.

And big shocker - Romans 2 contains references to BOTH the lost and the saved!

Here is the section on the saved.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

It is the same emphasis on good trees producing good fruit that we see in Matt 7 and the same perseverance of the saints seen in Rev 14:6-7, 12.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

They happen at the same instant "If any one is IN Christ he IS a new creation old things are passed away ALL things are become new"

Just because two different things happen together does not mean they are one and the same things. Justification is not regeneration and your analogy refers to regeneration and spiritual fruit not justificaiton and legal position. Furthermore, regeneration logically (not chronologically) precedes justification (1 John 5:1).

Your claim that the justified person is "ungodly" is wildly speculative and at a great distance from the text of scripture.

Yeah, well tell that to Paul:


Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Bob, whose faith is it that is counted for righteousness? The antecedent for the pronoun "his" is "the ungodly." Bob the the words "beleiveth" and "justifieth" both modify "him that worketh not."

James does NOT say that justified saints are "ungodly".

James defines what righteousness is by definition of the Law, it is keeping every point of the law without failure in one point. This is God's standard of His own righteousness and those who fail in one point "come short of the glory of God." Those who come short of this standard. That is the condition of the "ungodly" in Romans 4:5 who is justified "without works" and righteousness is IMPUTED rather than imparted.

In Romans 11 the saints remain justified and at peace with God - "IF you continue in his kindness otherwise you too will be cut off".

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

There is no "ungodly justified" in scripture.

Bob, the only ones saved in Romans 11 are the "remnant" (Rom. 11:1-10). The remnant are not the ones severed as they are not the ones who rejected Jesus Christ. It is UNBELIEVING Israel that is severed and cut off and it will be UNBELIEVING Gentiles that will be severed and cut of (Rom. 11:25) after the fullness of the Gentile remnant be come in.

Unbelieving Israel as a nation are grafted in "again" and when that happens "all Israel" will be saved (Rom. 11:25-28), that is the Israel that had been "severed" previously or the NATION of Israel or the people who are called "Jacob" and gentiles are NEVER called "Jacob" (Rom. 11:27).

If ignorance is bliss you are most blest.

 

[Dr. Walter]

And big shocker - Romans 2 contains references to BOTH the lost and the saved!

Romans 2:6-15 is Paul's response to the self-righteous claims of the hypocritical lost in Romans 2:1-5 that they will escpae the judgement of God based on their own perceived righteousness (v. 3). Paul simply lays down the just principles for God's judgement without affirming or denying that ANY SPECIFIC PERSONS will be justfiied or condemned. He then proceeds directly to the next bunch of self-righteous hypocrits who believe that by keeping the TEN COMMANDMENTS (Rom. 2:21-22) they will be justified at the judgement (Rom. 2:17-25).

Paul simply says what Christ said to the Lawyer and Rich young ruler who came to him on the BASIS OF GOOD WORKS seeking eternal life and Jesus said here is the law do it and you will have eternal life but Jesus also says the Jews do not keep the law (Jn 7:19) just as Paul concludes about both gentiles and Jews (Rom. 3:9-20).

However, your position demands that both Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 2:11-15) can keep the law of God in direct contradiction to both Christ and Paul as that is the very basis for you saying and interpreting those in Romans 2:11-15 and Romans 2:25-29 as righteous.

It is the same emphasis on good trees producing good fruit that we see in Matt 7 and the same perseverance of the saints seen in Rev 14:6-7, 12.

Those in Matthew 7 are "bad" trees with "bad" fruits (Mt. 7:15-23) not because their "house" looks bad but because it is built on the wrong "foundation" - the sand which is a MIXTURE of grace and works. Rev. 14:6-7 has nothing to do with saved people but with God's warning to those who take the mark of the beast (vv. 8-11).

 

[BobRyan]

However, your position demands that both Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 2:11-15) can keep the law of God

Hmm kind of a "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 thing?

Maybe a small sampling of one or two other texts along that line --

I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 NKJV/KJV/YLT
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.




How is it possible that the new creation of 2Cor 5 would actually obey God's word? Heb 8 has an answer.

Heb 8 - 10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.


So also does Rom 6

Rom 6
5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;

Walter said -. Rev. 14:6-7 has nothing to do with saved people but with God's warning to those who take the mark of the beast (vv. 8-11).

While you are correct to observe that there are some people in Rev 14 mentioned as failing there are ALSO saints mentioned in Rev 14 "by contrast" to the wicked.

It seems you have a pattern of wanting to delete the saints from a chapter whenever you find them contrasted to the wicked.

How odd.

Oh well - we always have the Bible by contrast.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

First of all you focus on those who are not saved in Romans 2 as if this serves to delete all references to those who are contrasted against them IN the chapter! That does not work any better in Romans 2 than it would in Romans 1!!

Hmm kind of a "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 thing?

You admit that NO LOST person can be justified by the Law and that means no lost man can KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS but you are so blind that you fail to see that Romans 2:3 and Romans 2:17-25 are clear assertions by Paul that the lost beleive they can be justified by their own works and yet you interpret Romans 2 in such a way that promotes such an assertion without any denial of those assertions!!!!!!!!

You do so, because you fail to understand that Paul is replying to those assertions and indeed those assertions are the primary subject he is specifically dealing with.

How would you deal with such false assertions? How would you deal with people who believe they can pass God's judgement based upon their own perceived righteousness (Rom. 2:1-5) OR their belief they can keep the Law of God (Rom. 2:17-25)???? Your interpretation of Romans 2 has NO RESPONSE to these assertions!!!

Paul responds to such assertions in a very logically manner in Romans 2:6-16 and 2:26-29.

1. Here is God's just principles that will determine if your assertions are correct and here are the just consquences if your assertions are correct or incorrect - vv. 6-16

2. Here is God's response to Jews who believe that circumcision and other outward acts of obedience makes you better than Gentiles - vv. 26-29.

YOUR INTERPRETATION LEAVES THEIR ASSERTIONS UNANSWERED whereas my interpretation answers them in harmony with the rest of God's word and in harmony with Paul's own testimony of what he was attempting to prove from Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:8, which is the testimony found in Romans 3:9-20!!!

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:6-15 is Paul's response to the self-righteous claims of the hypocritical lost in Romans 2:1-5 that they will escpae the judgement of God based on their own perceived righteousness (v. 3).

While you do a good job of seeing the failing cases in Romans 2 you turn a blind eye to their being contrasted to the succeeding examples of the changed-heart, New Covenant law on the heart, persevering saints given in that chapter "by contrast" to make the point stick!

Your tactic is to focus on those who are not saved in Romans 2 as if this serves to delete all references to those who are contrasted against them IN the chapter! That does not work any better in Romans 2 than it would in Romans 1!!

The entire point of Romans 2 for that section of Jews that are failing is that the Gentiles ARE going in! They are not being tossed out just because they are gentiles but instead are being accepted by God and SHOWING the good tree fruit in their life in the cases where they are choosing life!

So even though the reward is "to the Jew first and also to the Gentile" so also is the accountability and judgment for refusing the Gospel "goodness of God that leads you to repentance" holding the Jews accountable first. It works both ways - so they have a great opportunity for reward if they choose to repent and they have great risk if they reject the Gospel because there is coming a future Gospel judgment.


Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Remember(11 For there is no partiality with God. )

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You begin at the wrong place Bob! Romans 2:7 is a response to Romans 2:3-6. In Romans 2:3 the assertion is made that this is a class of people who believe because of their own works they are better than others and on that basis will "escape the judgement of God" (v.3). In verse 5 he defines them in these terms "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath" and then you miss the vital last statement of verse 5 that introduces verses 6-15: "the RIGHTEOUS judgement of God." Verses 6-16 defends the judgement of God as RIGHTEOUS. It is RIGHTEOUS because it is fair in its criteria and consquences (vv. 6-10). It is RIGHTEOUS because it is without respect of persons (v. 11). It is RIGHTEOUS because every person is judged according to the light they have (vv. 12-15). It is RIGHTEOUS because the gospel standard of righteousness as revealed in the Person and works of Jesus (Rev. 1:17 "therein is the righteousness of God revealed") the man will be applied to all men who come on the basis of their own works (v. 16).

Hence, both the hypocrit in verses 1-5 are in for "wrath" as verse 5 states. Hence, the Jews who believe they can keep the ten commandments (vv. 20-21) will be in for wrath as verse 24 delcares them to be blasphemers.

Verses 26-29 repeately use the term "if" because Paul is reasoning with the HYPOCRITICAL LOST JEW that he has just addressed directly in verses 17-25 wherein is described their basis of law keeping which they suppose makes them better than the Gentiles (when in reality they are not better except in their own imagination as they cannot keep the ten commandments written in stone [vv. 21-22] any better than the gentile can keep the ten commandments written on their conscience [vv. 14-15] and that is why he repeatedly uses the "if" because there is no actual reality to the supposition being considered).

He is only bringing this imaginary supposition up only to demonstrate that the EXTERNAL sign of committment to law keeping is worthless if there is no INTERNAL reality that harmonizes with it. To illustrate this point, he takes the very ones that the Pious Jews despise (the gentile) and claim to be superior to in righteousness and presents them as actually obeying the law written upon their conscience without external circumcision and claims that such obedience would be counted by God as circumcision while the Jews external conformance would be discounted. Paul's point is not to assert Gentiles have done this or can do this but rather that "if" they did then the Jew would be inferior to the Gentile because God looks upon the heart not the externals to judge righteousness.

You don't understand Romans 2;14-15 because you isolate it from the developmental argument beginning with verse 3 and from the immediate point beginning in verse 12 where judgment will not use a standard for the Gentiles which they were not given - the Law of Moses - but rather use as the righteous standard only what they were given - the law as written upon their conscience (vv. 14-15).

Romans 2:25-29 gives the SUPPOSITION ("if') of a Gentile keeping the law written on conscience over the Jew who is circumcised but fails to keep the meaning of circumcision as to which one would be regarded circumcised in the sight of God. Paul's point is to the jew who believes that EXTERNALS make them MORE RIGHTEOUS than Gentiles when true righteousness is not about externals but about true obedience from the heart. This is why both the Jew and the Gentile cannot come to God on the day of judgment on the basis of their own work (Rom. 1:1-5; 17-25) because it requires a righteousness that can only come by faith in Christ and neither Jew or Gentile will come to Christ until they realize they realize they are sinners (Rom. 3:9-21).

Romans 3:9 explicitly tells the reader what point Paul is making between Revelation 1:18 where the Gentiles are first introduced and Romans 3:8 where he concludes with the Jews. Salvation in Christ has not been his subject or his point but rather to prove there is "none good, no, not one" and that "no flesh" can be justified by the works of the Law whether it is written upon stone or conscience.

Salvation and how one is saved does not begin until Romans 3:21 where the righteousness necessary for both Jew and Gentile is revealed apart from the law written on stone or conscience and apart from the prophets who predicted the coming of Christ wherein the rightousness of God is only provided in contrast to the law on stone and on conscience.