What matters is keeping the Commandments of God

[BobRyan]

There is no such animal as "future justification."

By contrast Paul said -- In Romans 2


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


And as we saw in Dan 7:9-10 the Court room of God is convened some time after the split of Pagan Roman empire into 10 kingdoms and also after the 11'th arises uprooting 3 of the ten, and also after the Dan 7 1260 years of persecution of the saints (dark ages). When that court concludes Dan 7:22 state that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

And at that point the earth is destroyed - and the saints take possession of the kingdom as God points out in Dan 2 and 7.

=================

But of course we could simply "circle back" when Paul brings this future justification and judgment up in Romans 2 - and go to the context for the lost becoming saved in Romans 5:1 dealing with justification past.

Sort of a "read Romans 5 not Romans 2" solution rather than the BOTH and view of the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, the judgment has not yet arrived. Hence, there can be no actual success caes.

I find your logic illusive just then.

Paul points to a future judgment - so we all agree future to his day and yet he still points to the reality of successes in that future judgment.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Daniel also points to success cass in Dan 7:22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints".

The logic that says that they cannot know that success cases will be the result if judgment is future - does not fit the text of scripture.

Paul sets the context for the "Gospel judgment" of Rom 2:16 saying in Rom 1:17 "the just shall live by faith" and in Rom 2:4 Paul speaks of the context of the goodness of God calling all mankind to repentance.

Those who reject that Gospel call - are the wicked of Rom 2 and those who accept it are the saints - who in Vs 6 are seen to persevere.

Paul never says in Romans 2 that the vs 6 action of the saints persevering "in doing good" is what leads "Gentiles to blaspheme the name of God because of you" - rather he points to the wicked Jews that refuse to repent as being that which leads gentiles to blaspheme God.

By contrast Paul points to gentiles who are born-again with a new heart with the Law of God written on the heart.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

This example of gentiles succeeding is used by Paul to motivate those Jews who happen to be refusing the Gospel Call to repentance in vs 4 -- as Paul also states in Rom 11:11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

By contrast Paul said -- In Romans 2


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


And as we saw in Dan 7:9-10 the Court room of God is convened some time after the split of Pagan Roman empire into 10 kingdoms and also after the 11'th arises uprooting 3 of the ten, and also after the Dan 7 1260 years of persecution of the saints (dark ages). When that court concludes Dan 7:22 state that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

And at that point the earth is destroyed - and the saints take possession of the kingdom as God points out in Dan 2 and 7.

=================

But of course we could simply "circle back" when Paul brings this future justification and judgment up in Romans 2 - and go to the context for the lost becoming saved in Romans 5:1 dealing with justification past.

Sort of a "read Romans 5 not Romans 2" solution rather than the BOTH and view of the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

Are you the authority that tells us these verses are speaking of justification? They are not.

My advice to you:
You do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul said -

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Are you the authority that tells us these verses are speaking of justification?

There are a number of unbiased objective readers that will look at the statement "will be justified" and get the hint that justification is being discussed.

However as DHK points out - others may simply choose to turn a blind eye to that Bible detail.

I believe God created a free will universe where each person must decide for themselves and so finding a way to avoid the "will be justified" detaill in the text is left as an exercise for those whose bias would prefer not to accept the text as it reads.

My interest is merely in presenting the evidence to those who are open to the text as it reads.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

By contrast Paul said -- In Romans 2


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

You quote Romans 2:13 as a proof text against DHK to prove there is a future judgment. You accuse me of circling back to the position that none are justified by works of the law but by faith and yet you choose to use this text as proof of a future judgement of saved and lost when this text defines the standard by which men are justifed not by grace, not by faith, but purely by works under the law of Moses. Previously, you have agreed that "no flesh" can be justified by this standard of justification before God. You can't have your cake and eat it to! Either it is possible for human beings to be justified by their works under the Law of Moses or it is not. Paul says it is not possible (Rom. 3:19-20; Gal. 3:10-12). James says such a standard requires absolute sinlessness (James 2:10) so that not even one point of the law of Moses is violated.

You quote Romans 2:15 as proof of a yet future jugement. Yet Romans 2:15 refers to the same standard written upon the conscience of Gentiles that corresponds to the standard provided the Jew in the Law of Moses. Again, strictly justification by one's own works just as Romans 2:6 clearly states is the basis for this judgment. However, when I provide scriptures to prove that no flesh can be justified by their own works you accuse me of circling back and then agree with me that there can be no such justification by ones own works!!

You quote Romans 2:16 to prove their is a future judgement and you assert the use of "the gospel" in this text demonstrates there are saved as well as lost at this judgment. However, you totally disregard that Paul's use here of "the gospel" is not for salvation but as a standard for judging "the secrets of men's hearts." Why so? The answer is simple! Romans 1:17 already has stated that the "righteousness of God" is revealed in the gospel! Romans 3:21-22 also teaches that the "righteousness of God" is revealed in the Person of Christ! The implication on this justification by your own works under the law context is obvious to any who has spiritual eyes. If you are going to come before God and be justified according to the standard of the Mosaic Law then your works must measure up to the righteous life of Jesus Christ revealed in the gospel as the spotless lamb of God who did satisfy that standard. He will be the Measure of righteousness for anyone coming before God on the basis of their own works and His righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Jews (external) but includes the very intent and thoughts of the heart. This is exactly what Paul is declaring in Romans 2:16 that those who stand before God on the basis of their own righteousness to be judged by the Law of God according to the principle set forth in verse 13 (not he that saith but him that doeth the law shall be justified) then He must measure up to the righteousness of the Person of Jesus Christ including "the secrets of the heart."

You are hypocritically abusing these scriptures. Either they demand that THE DOER OF THE LAW and not the hearer IS JUSTIFIED and therefore justification can come by the works of the Law or they are declaring the standard for justification by all who come before God on the basis of their OWN GOOD WORKS not because any flesh can meet that standard but because that is the righteous standard to justify anyone who comes by their own works. Now quit playing the hypocrit and be honest. Can anyone be justified by law on the basis of their own works (Rom. 2:13)? If not, then Paul is certainly not teaching your interpetation of this text and context. If you are teaching by this text that men can be and will be justified by the law according to their own works then stop accusing me of circling back when I repudiate that any flesh can be justified by works under the law. Your interpretation of Romans 2:13 as the future judgment declares you believe just as the Jews did, that men will be justified by their own works before the Law of God.

You can't have your cake and eat it too! Either this text (Rom. 2:13) demands it is possible to be justified by the works of the law in the future judgment or it does not. Either this text (Rom. 2:13) is given to prove men are justified by their own works in the future judgment or this text is given to demonstrate the impossibility of justification by their own works and thus prove that all have sinned and that "no flesh" shall be justified by the works of the law. Either way, your accusation that I am circling back is exposed to be pure fiction and hypocrisy.

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast Paul said -- In Romans 2


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


And as we saw in Dan 7:9-10 the Court room of God is convened some time after the split of Pagan Roman empire into 10 kingdoms and also after the 11'th arises uprooting 3 of the ten, and also after the Dan 7 1260 years of persecution of the saints (dark ages). When that court concludes Dan 7:22 state that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

And at that point the earth is destroyed - and the saints take possession of the kingdom as God points out in Dan 2 and 7.

=================

But of course we could simply "circle back" when Paul brings this future justification and judgment up in Romans 2 - and go to the context for the lost becoming saved in Romans 5:1 dealing with justification past.

Sort of a "read Romans 5 not Romans 2" solution rather than the BOTH and view of the Bible.

You quote Romans 2:13 as a proof

Well usually I point to Romans 2 and to Daniel 7 as proof that there is a future judgment. Future to Daniel and future to Paul.

In Rev 14:6-7 we find that it is future to John as well.

Walter -

You accuse me of circling back to the position that none are justified by works of the law but by faith

Actually that is only partially correct. I accuse you bailing each time the perseverance of the saints is brought up or the future and Romans 2:13 judgment is mentioned - and circling back to the context for the Romans 5:1 reference to Justification in an effort to avoid the context for future judgment and future justification where "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

I have repeatedly stated that your view of the law and justification from the standpoint of the lost going from lost-to-saved is excellent.

Walter -

and yet you choose to use this text as proof of a future judgement of saved and lost when this text defines the standard by which men are justifed not by grace, not by faith, but purely by works

The Romans 2 text specifically speaks of "Gospel juddgment" in Rom 2:16 and as it turns out grace and faith are a big part of the judgment. Thus in Matt 7 Christ said "it is not every who SAYS Lord Lord that will enter the kingdom of heaven but he that DOES the will of My Father".

Simply pointing at these texts and saying "not the gospel" is not the form of exegesis that is necessary to carry your point.

Walter said
Previously, you have agreed that "no flesh" can be justified by this standard of justification before God. You can't have your cake and eat it to! Either it is possible for human beings to be justified by their works under the Law of Moses or it is not.

The perseverance of the saints seen in Rom 2:6-7 and in Rev 14:12 and in Matt 7 and in Romans 6 and .. . is not "how the lost are saved". There is no way to continually circle back to "yes but what about a lost person" whenever the subject of perseverance of the saints comes up.

I have always agreed that the only way to be saved is by grace through faith - without the works of the law. But this cannot be used as an excuse to ignore scriptures that speak to the perseverance of saints.

It just does not get any easier than this.

Walter
Paul says it is not possible (Rom. 3:19-20; Gal. 3:10-12).

Agreed. Paul says it is not possible for the lost to become saved by law keeping. Not sure how many different ways there are to circle back to that point where we all agree.

Walter.

You quote Romans 2:15 as proof of a yet future jugement.

Actually I quote Romans 2:13-15, Dan 7:22, 2Cor 5:10 Rev 6,7 and Matt 7 when making that point. But I supposed you could just look at one vs - in Romans 2 if that is where you are comfortable.

Yet Romans 2:15 refers to the same standard written upon the conscience of Gentiles that corresponds to the standard provided the Jew in the Law of Moses.

Romans 2:15 speaks of the New Covenant result of the law of God written on the heart that Paul ALSO speaks of in Heb 8. This as you point out is a reference to the OT concept of the Law of God since in fact the New Covenant itself is merely a quote of Jeremiah.

The SAME law of God that defines sin (Rom 6) is the SAME Law that the saints are told to obey in Romans 6. And in Romans 6 Paul says that IF we say that even after being born-again we remain in slavery to sin we are then the servants of sin -- of the one that we obey.

In 1John 2- the Apostle John says that the one who claims to know Christ should be keeping His Commandments.

No wonder Paul can say that "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" in 1Cor 7:19 when writing to the saints at Corinth.

Impossible to ignore.

Your efforts to conflate the Romans 5:1 concept of justification past with the clear Romans 2:13-16 concept of justificdation future - leads to your endless "Circling back" to justification past - almost any time perseverance of the saints comes up as a subject.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I have always agreed that the only way to be saved is by grace through faith - without the works of the law. But this cannot be used as an excuse to ignore scriptures that speak to the perseverance of saints.

Your efforts to conflate the Romans 5:1 concept of justification past with the clear Romans 2:13-16 concept of justificdation future - leads to your endless "Circling back" to justification past - almost any time perseverance of the saints comes up as a subject.

in Christ,

Bob

First, the subject of Romans 2 is not perseverance of the saints but judgment according to the Law of God by ones works.

Second, you want to replace "justified" by the word "saved" when the term "saved" is a broader term. Romans 5:1 and Romans 2:13 are talking about JUSTIFICATION in specific not salvation in general.

Third, you intentionally confuse regeneration with justification as though they are the same and they are not. You do so because you are defining past justification one way and future justification another way. The past justification you want to define as the PERSON BEING CHANGED whereas the future justification you deny the PERSON BEING CHANGED. So you attempt to pervert the meaning of "justified" in Romans 5:1 to be the CHANGING OF A PERSON as in making a tree good when it has nothing at all with CHANGING OF A PERSON but rather CHANGING OF THE POSITION of that person in relationship to God. You are forced to admit the proper meaning when dealing with what you call "future justification" as you deny that "justified" changes a sinner to a saint. Be consistent as it is the SAME term in both cases.


Fourth, Romans 2:13 is about being "JUSTIFIED" strictly under the law of Moses by the works prescribed by the Law of Moses. Romans 3:19-5:2 is explict that "NO FLESH" can be justified under the Law of Moses by that standard and that justification before God is only by faith WITHOUT WORKS and it is finished and completed at the point of faith (Rom. 5:1-2) in keeping with the express denial that believers come into any future judgment in regard to eternal life or death (Jn. 5:24).

Fifth, you are confusing the justification of REWARDS according to the works of believers with justification of eternal life. The latter has been decided once for all (Rom. 5:2) and the former determines nothing but rewards in heaven (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

Sixth, you cannot have your cake and eat it too! Either "justified" means the person is not changed or the person is changed. You cannot have it one way in Romans 5:1 and another way in Romans 2:13.

Seventh, you cannot define "justified" to mean "born again" or "regeneration" or "quickened" because there is nowhere in the Scriptures they are synonyms as one is a LEGAL term used in context with "law" whereas the other is a PARENTAL term used in context of BIRTHING! This is how you defend your false doctrine by assigning what you like to terms.

 

[Chowmah]

There is ONE 'law' throughout ALL Scripture whereby ALL men are judged sinners and condemned sinners--- the ONLY 'law' of God's EVER speaking in WHICHEVER way whether in ceremonial or moral or social or health 'law' NO MATTER! And that 'law in English is the four letter word: 'LOVE!' 'LOVE God ... LOVE one's neighbour.

There is no such thing as transgression of God's 'law' than the transgression of or against 'LOVE'. There is NO unrighteousness that is not the unrighteousness of not having obeyed the law of God his law: 'Thou shalt LOVE!'.

If every man comes short of the righteousness which is the righteousness of God's, it is because of the strength of this law: 'LOVE'. There is NO reward of sin that is not the reward by the law of 'LOVE'. Death is the payment by and of the law, 'LOVE!'

THEREFORE let every man shut his mouth! Who is not THE transgressor of that law man so EASILY BOASTS he is the fulfiller of and obedient to?

ALL men are EQUAL LIARS before only ONE law, God's Word that commands: "Thou shalt LOVE!"

Yes GE, it all comes down to love. So how does the Word say we know that we are walking in this love? All the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures below tell us how we are to love one another. And there all quite clear! Keep the 10 commandments and you will be walking in the “love" mentioned in the new testament.

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Kinda hard to do a song and dance around those scriptures

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because there will be some out there that will try and tell you the “commandments” mentioned are not the 10 commandments. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. There will also be some out there that will tell you since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored.

JOHN 15 [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS, AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes GE, it all comes down to love. So how does the Word say we know that we are walking in this love? All the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures below tell us how we are to love one another. And there all quite clear! Keep the 10 commandments and you will be walking in the “love" mentioned in the new testament.

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Kinda hard to do a song and dance around those scriptures

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because there will be some out there that will try and tell you the “commandments” mentioned are not the 10 commandments. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. There will also be some out there that will tell you since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored.

JOHN 15 [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS, AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.

Yes, by keeping the commandments we show love for God as a consequence for having been justified but we do not keep the commandments in order to be justified by God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.................................you cannot define "justified" to mean "born again" or "regeneration" or "quickened" because there is nowhere in the Scriptures they are synonyms as one is a LEGAL term used in context with "law" whereas the other is a PARENTAL term used in context of BIRTHING! This is how you defend your false doctrine by assigning what you like to terms.

GE:

Beg to differ...

"justified", "born again", "regeneration", "quickened" aren't "synonyms" alright, but they all indicate the single event of the coming into reality of the salvation of an individual elected child of God through the working of the Holy Spirit by virtue of the reconciliation and redemption perfected In Christ By Jesus Christ.

That was the Reformation point of view, in any case; to which I hold.

I'm in no way talking in chorus with BobRyan! That is obvious.

 

[Dr. Walter]

GE:

Beg to differ...

"justified", "born again", "regeneration", "quickened" aren't "synonyms" alright, but they all indicate the single event of the coming into reality of the salvation of an individual elected child of God through the working of the Holy Spirit by virtue of the reconciliation and redemption perfected In Christ By Jesus Christ.

That was the Reformation point of view, in any case; to which I hold.

I'm in no way talking in chorus with BobRyan! That is obvious.

Just because regeneration, conversion (repentance and faith) justification, adoption occur simeltaneously in one event does not mean they are synonyms or that they deal with the same thing. Just because there is no chronological order does not mean there is no logical order. Just because they occur in one event does not mean they refer to the same things within that event.

Regeneration is a PATERNAL term that has to do with birth into the family of God in regard to your PERSON, whereas Justification is a FORENSIC term that has to do with the legal POSITION in the court of God's Law.

All of these individual aspects may be inclusive in the broad term "salvation" but to use the term "salvation" indiscriminately as a synonym for each aspect opens the flood gates to every cult to have a hay day to create theological confusion and chaos.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ja; I appreciate, thanks. Gi' me tha' ol' time religion!

 

[glfredrick]

Ja; I appreciate, thanks. Gi' me tha' ol' time religion!

That IS old time religion... From Augustine circa AD 370. Old enough? That certainly predates all the various theologies we are expounding on these days.

 

[Chowmah]

Yes, by keeping the commandments we show love for God as a consequence for having been justified but we do not keep the commandments in order to be justified by God.

Not so good Dr. One proof of this truth is we do not recieve Gods Holy Spirit till we are already trying to keep the ten

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.[16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEPETH THEM, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

In order to receive the Holy Spirit we must first be keeping Gods 10 commandments. The 4th included. Thats what John 14{15-16} says. This truth is also found in verse {21}.

ACTS 5 [29] Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.[30] The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.[31] Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also THE HOLY GHOST, WHOM GOD HATH GIVEN TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM.

DEUT.27 [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY the voice of the LORD thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

Obey GOD and do his commandments and then recieve Gods Holy Spirit

ACTS 2 [38] Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.

You no doubt are to repent of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. If you are not transgressing the law, you are then keeping Gods 10 commandments. Its then Dr. youll recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ag ja ....

 

[patharris]

Really.
The Holy Spirit dwelling in us has nothing to do with keeping the 10 commandments.
We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit when we are saved.

Your putting together of verses to prove your point is the equivalent of putting bike wheels on a truck and trying to convince the Department of Motor Vehicles that it's a bike and not a truck.

However, I have learned that messianics tend to distort scripture to make their point.

I don't keep the 4th the way you believe it should be and I can assure you that the Holy Spirit dwells in me.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Not so good Dr. One proof of this truth is we do not recieve Gods Holy Spirit till we are already trying to keep the ten

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.[16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEPETH THEM, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

In order to receive the Holy Spirit we must first be keeping Gods 10 commandments. The 4th included. Thats what John 14{15-16} says. This truth is also found in verse {21}.

ACTS 5 [29] Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.[30] The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.[31] Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also THE HOLY GHOST, WHOM GOD HATH GIVEN TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM.

DEUT.27 [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY the voice of the LORD thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

Obey GOD and do his commandments and then recieve Gods Holy Spirit

ACTS 2 [38] Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.

You no doubt are to repent of sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. If you are not transgressing the law, you are then keeping Gods 10 commandments. Its then Dr. youll recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit

Romans 5:5 states that the Holy Spirit must be first within us to produce love as love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. In your texts, love is the cause for keeping the commandments. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Chowmah]

Romans 5:5 states that the Holy Spirit must be first within us to produce love as love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Rom.5 [5] And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Says no such thing. Says "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost". Your not going to stop loving once you recieve the Holy Spirit.

 

[Chowmah]

Really.
The Holy Spirit dwelling in us has nothing to do with keeping the 10 commandments.
We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit when we are saved.

Hi Patharris
So when were you "saved"? When did you "see" this happen?

ROMANS 8 [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?[25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

[Chowmah]

Really.
The Holy Spirit dwelling in us has nothing to do with keeping the 10 commandments. We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit when we are saved.

Isnt salvation and saved the exact same thing? No doubt.

2 TIM. 3 [14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; [15] And THAT FROM A CHILD THOU HAST KNOWN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, WHICH ARE ABLE TO MAKE THEE WISE UNTO SALVATION through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Only scriptures around at this time were the old testament scriptures

PSALM 119 [166] LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.

Theres that word "hope" again