Semi-Pelagianism vs Arminianism

[quantumfaith]

I think we'll probably agree on a couple of things, including the assent by man of his will, and the necessity of repentance and faith. Man is also responsible for his sin and is commanded to repent on several occasions in the scriptures.

The reason I quoted John 1:13 is that nearly every non-Calvinist will go to the mat over free will, and will argue for sovereignty of God in every area except man's will. Just wanted to stimulate some thinking.

Where we probably part company is the extent of free will, which God allows us to have. I suspect you will hold that God gives it from the start. I hold that man operates freely within his nature, and in his fallen lost state freely rejects the command to repent.

Then, when the Holy Spirit regenerates the lost soul, and gives grants him repentance and faith, he operates freely within that new nature to repent and believe for salvation. This is probably the sticking point between Cals and non-Cals--the separation of regeneration and salvation as two separate things.

Tom

Came across the following in a book I am currently reading:

"The Bible emphasizes human choice and the graciousness of God's offer without a hint of concern about the two being in conflict, so the burden of proof is upon any theological system that infers one exists. It is one thing to say that without the Holy Spirit's enabling we cannot believe, but it is another to say the Holy Spirit necessitates we believe. Simply put, the doctrine or "irrestible grace" renders incomprehensible major portions of the Bible. Scripture gives to many examples of persons successfully resisting God's grace."

 

[quantumfaith]

From the same website....



Where as others believe the Bible......



Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:

Isaiah 14:26 This [is] the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this [is] the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day [was] I [am] he; and [there is] none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Lamentations 3:37 Who [is] he [that] saith, and it cometh to pass, [when] the Lord commandeth [it] not?

Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Jarthur:

If you will permit me to "wax on" for just a moment:

As see I it, boiled down, a "point of contention" between "reformers" and "non-reformers" can be reduced to perhaps a misinterpretation of "pride".

For us "non-reformers", we often viscerally see the concept of "election" as pitched by the reformer camp as "self-pride' in that "I am a member of the elect, so sorry you arent" Although as mature persons and believers we should and must know, that this is not the correct way to view this, often times, it "comes across" that way.

For the "reformers", they seem to see the emphasis that "non-reformers" place on the "freedom of the will" as a source of "pride" and perhaps that "refellious spirit" of man. Again, this is often misunderstood and represented. Holding to some facet of "human free will" to most "non-reformers is extremely humbling and challenging.

I am sure there are a multitude of ways of "picking apart" and analyzing this "dilemma" with regards to theology. We all love, honor and worship our God. We all wish to see His kingdom and wishes advanced throughout creation.

 

[MB]

Can you please exegete this passage and explain how you came to the conclusion that this definitely without a doubt shows that a depraved man, apart from God, can accept the gospel?

I may have said to much in my question, but I will allow you to clear up my misunderstandings.


thank you

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

According to God, there are only Jews and Gentiles. There is no in between. The Jews are His people whom He came to save because, He had chose them for Salvation. The Gentiles are the infidels He sent Salvation to because, the Jews rejected Him. Paul wrote "They will hear it". If the Gentiles will hear it then this disproves the theory that the natural man cannot hear the gospel, and proves that Salvation is availiable to all and not only the imaginary unsaved elect. If God sent Salvation unto the Gentiles. Then He chose for them to be saved. True not everyone will be saved but the reason for that isn't unbelief only, but rebllion or the refusal to surrender. There are men who believe and refuse to surrender. The Jews in Roman 10:1-4 are proof of that. Paul said they had a zeal for God but not according to righteousness. You see that righteousness can only be had by surrender to the will of God and that is surrender to Christ.
MB

 

[Luke2427]

From the same website....



Where as others believe the Bible......



Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:

Isaiah 14:26 This [is] the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this [is] the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day [was] I [am] he; and [there is] none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Lamentations 3:37 Who [is] he [that] saith, and it cometh to pass, [when] the Lord commandeth [it] not?

Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Good work here. These passages should convince anyone who is looking for the truth of the matter.

 

[convicted1]

From the same website....



Where as others believe the Bible......



Psalms 105:25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:

Isaiah 14:26 This [is] the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this [is] the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day [was] I [am] he; and [there is] none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Lamentations 3:37 Who [is] he [that] saith, and it cometh to pass, [when] the Lord commandeth [it] not?

Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Bro Jarthur,

I boldedand underlined a sentence in your post that strikes me as odd. So if I hold to freewill, I do not believe the bible? I have ready MANY posts on both sides that cry "foul" when things like this are written. Just because we have differing views, doesn't mean we don't believe the bible. We just have different views on certain topics. I would never say that you didn't believe the bible because you hold to the DoG.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Jarthur001]

Bro Jarthur,

I boldedand underlined a sentence in your post that strikes me as odd. So if I hold to freewill, I do not believe the bible? I have ready MANY posts on both sides that cry "foul" when things like this are written. Just because we have differing views, doesn't mean we don't believe the bible. We just have different views on certain topics. I would never say that you didn't believe the bible because you hold to the DoG.

i am I am's!!

Willis

Hello Willis,

If one holds to free will as described in the post where this quote comes from, I hold to the view that one does not believe the Bible as I read it. Allow me to repost that description.

Free Will - Semi-Pelagianism stresses the freedom of the will of man to the extreme that God does nothing in the earth except by man using his freedom to allow God to act. God's sovereignty takes a backseat in semi-Pelagian theology because of the stress on God giving freedom of the will to humanity.

I'll just go through a few words here..

The 1st word grates at a Calvinist...FREE. While we ALL agree that all men have a will to chose, it is hardly free to chose whatever man wishes. If I hard a free will I would have been able to play basketball as well as Michael Jordan or better, years ago. But the fact is, God made Michael Jordan better than I and no matter how much my desire to be Michael Jordan, I will never be that good.

Still, this is not why I posted my quote that you did not care for. The description has God bound to the will of man. If man does not say it is OK, God cannot do anything. That my friend is not the God of the Bible. I can support this with many passage if you need to see them.

 

[quantumfaith]

Hello Willis,

If one holds to free will as described in the post where this quote comes from, I hold to the view that one does not believe the Bible as I read it. Allow me to repost that description.



I'll just go through a few words here..

The 1st word grates at a Calvinist...FREE. While we ALL agree that all men have a will to chose, it is hardly free to chose whatever man wishes. If I hard a free will I would have been able to play basketball as well as Michael Jordan or better, years ago. But the fact is, God made Michael Jordan better than I and no matter how much my desire to be Michael Jordan, I will never be that good.

Still, this is not why I posted my quote that you did not care for. The description has God bound to the will of man. If man does not say it is OK, God cannot do anything. That my friend is not the God of the Bible. I can support this with many passage if you need to see them.

JArthur, in all gentleness, no malice here, you seem to be confusing "cannot" with "will not". Not even the most ardent "open theist" says God "cannot". But those of us that believe man is required to exercise choice are convinced that God "will not". That is who "we" think the God of the Bible happens to be. I do acknowledge that there are certain "personalities" in the scriptural record that God simply says, "You are the man for this job" and that is simply within the purview of the Eternal, but I do not perceive that this is the "normative" experience for all. Can God do Whatever He desires....Most certainly.

 

[Robert Snow]

Not true. I believe God is sovereign over the will. If I give my son a choice between two movies to see, I'm still sovereign over his will.

Can you explain to me why this is so difficult for some to understand. It seems so simple.

 

[Robert Snow]

Because salvation and regeneration are two different things just like heads and tales are two different things.

I continue to hear about this distinction, but I never see any proof of this in Scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

Can you explain to me why this is so difficult for some to understand. It seems so simple.

Because the free willers believe that God does not WANT man to perish at all. They believe God does not WANT there to be sin in the world.

Therefore God WANTS one to choose good but they go against the will of God and choose evil. Therefore God is not in Sovereign control of their choices. If it were up to God they would NOT go to hell. If it were up to God they would NEVER sin. But it is not up to God.

IF IT IS NOT UP TO GOD THEN GOD IS NOT SOVEREIGN.

The very definition of sovereignty means it is up to the one who is sovereign.

 

[Luke2427]

I continue to hear about this distinction, but I never see any proof of this in Scripture.

Countless proofs have been supplied.

If you wish I will resupply them.

 

[webdog]

The very definition of sovereignty means it is up to the one who is sovereign.

Sovereign means in control...not controlling.

 

[Luke2427]

Sovereign means in control...not controlling.

Sovereign does not mean that one controls things???????????

Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[webdog]

Sovereign does not mean that one controls things???????????

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Do you argue for the sake of arguing? What did I say, Luke? How can you point the finger at Amy misrepresenting what you say with any kind of straight face? Do I need to resort to the big fonts?

Sovereign means in control

 

[Luke2427]

Do you argue for the sake of arguing? What did I say, Luke? How can you point the finger at Amy misrepresenting what you say with any kind of straight face? Do I need to resort to the big fonts?

Sovereign means in control

Does God control how a single snow flake falls to the earth or does he not control that?

Does it fall to the earth on it's own apart from the power of God?

Or does it fall to the earth EXACTLY as God designed it to fall to the earth?

If your answer is that God controls EXACTLY how it falls to the earth then apply that to EVERYTHING and you will begin to understand sovereignty.

If things happen that God does not WANT to happen- if things happen that if it were up to God they would NOT- then God is not sovereign- period.

Listen to it again- if things happen that- if it were up to God would never happen- then God is not IN CONTROL of those things.

He has forfeited control of those things to others.

If God does not want me to post this on bb and it happens anyway- who is in control of whether or not this post makes it to baptistboard?

 

[webdog]

Does God control how a single snow flake falls to the earth or does he not control that?

He's in control of it.

Does it fall to the earth on it's own apart from the power of God?

Of course not, it didn't create itself and determine to fall on it's own...God has allowed it to fall and to be created.

Or does it fall to the earth EXACTLY as God designed it to fall to the earth?

God's the greatest scientist, He knows the exact speed, weight, resistance, etc. on the flake's path to earth.

If your answer is that God controls EXACTLY how it falls to the earth then apply that to EVERYTHING and you will begin to understand sovereignty.

I agree...His permissive will is also part of His sovereignty. He doesn't have to form the snowflake, push it to earth, pinpoint the landing spot, etc. By Him allowing it to fall He is sovereign.

 

[Robert Snow]

Luke, please answer one simple question without resorting to your usual diatribe.

Can God in His sovereignty allow man to have free choice?

 

[quantumfaith]

Luke, please answer one simple question without resorting to your usual diatribe.

Can God in His sovereignty allow man to have free choice?

That is the proverbial $64,000 question, but my guess is that Luke will say that God can but doesnt.

 

[glfredrick]

Luke, please answer one simple question without resorting to your usual diatribe.

Can God in His sovereignty allow man to have free choice?

I'll answer this one...

Yes, He can. But, does He? Or, if He does, in what realm. Obviously (as I've said before) the Scriptures are valid for both Calvinists and Arminians, so if there are passages that indicate human free will, then those passages are for Calvinist or Arminian. So too for the passages on election -- for both camps. Setting Scripture against Scripture -- as is often done on this board -- IS SIN AGAINST GOD. God is not divided!

So, therefore, it would behoove us to come to grips with what SCRIPTURE actually says instead of what some preacher, some teacher, some chart, some book, etc., says -- and yes, again, this is for both sides...

Can we, with free will overturn a directive of God? If so, would that not make us more powerful than God?

I asked a question earlier along the lines of, "If God reveals Himself in His glory, will the person who sees Him fall on his or her face in belief?"

The answer, of course, is YES! So, if God reveals Himself to the sinner, will that sinner not be convicted of his or her sin and turn away? Yes! Both sides believe that, or else we're in the whole wrong religion! But, the Arminian says that the person comes to God and repents because they were convicted about their need to come to God, while the Calvinist says that they come to God and repent because God convicted them. But, where was God in this scenario? Had he already revealed His glory to the person to cause the conviction? Seems so... So, we bend our wills to the will of God because we have seen God revealed in faith. Both sides win, and that is the BIBLICAL picture.

 

[webdog]

Can we, with free will overturn a directive of God? If so, would that not make us more powerful than God?

Did it make Hezekiah more powerful than God?