Semi-Pelagianism vs Arminianism

[glfredrick]

Here is a task for those espousing free will of humans...

Please give the rest of us poor ignorant Calvinists a nice list of all the verses where God says that we have freedom of will that trumps His sovereignty. I keep hearing about Scriptural proof for the fact that a person can reject God. Time to bring it.

Just make your list, and others can add to it. I'd love to see the verses where this is so. It would be VERY helpful if the passages said SOMETHING about free will, not just passages that may have one or more interpretations. I'm looking for the sort of powerful DIRECT Scriptural evidence that so many say exists in the Word.

We may repeat the exercise later with the Calvinists, where we post verses that directly apply to election and sovereignty.

 

[webdog]

Please give the rest of us poor ignorant Calvinists a nice list of all the verses where God says that we have freedom of will that trumps His sovereignty.

There are no verses that say that because there are no non calvinists here on the BB (that I know of) who believes that. Like I have said repeatedly, they are not contrary to each other.

 

[Robert Snow]

The FACT that God allows man free choice concerning salvation is evident from Scripture.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here is a task for those espousing free will of humans...

Please give the rest of us poor ignorant Calvinists a nice list of all the verses where God says that we have freedom of will that trumps His sovereignty. I keep hearing about Scriptural proof for the fact that a person can reject God. Time to bring it.

Just make your list, and others can add to it. I'd love to see the verses where this is so. It would be VERY helpful if the passages said SOMETHING about free will, not just passages that may have one or more interpretations. I'm looking for the sort of powerful DIRECT Scriptural evidence that so many say exists in the Word.

We may repeat the exercise later with the Calvinists, where we post verses that directly apply to election and sovereignty.

Americans just can't stand the thought of not having free will.

:thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

Here is a task for those espousing free will of humans...

Please give the rest of us poor ignorant Calvinists a nice list of all the verses where God says that we have freedom of will that trumps His sovereignty. I keep hearing about Scriptural proof for the fact that a person can reject God. Time to bring it.

Just make your list, and others can add to it. I'd love to see the verses where this is so. It would be VERY helpful if the passages said SOMETHING about free will, not just passages that may have one or more interpretations. I'm looking for the sort of powerful DIRECT Scriptural evidence that so many say exists in the Word.

We may repeat the exercise later with the Calvinists, where we post verses that directly apply to election and sovereignty.

First of all, nothing trumps God. Right off the bat you've set up a wall between us.

But here are a couple of verses for you.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.



But, I'll bet you've seen those before.

 

[quantumfaith]

Here is a task for those espousing free will of humans...

Please give the rest of us poor ignorant Calvinists a nice list of all the verses where God says that we have freedom of will that trumps His sovereignty. I keep hearing about Scriptural proof for the fact that a person can reject God. Time to bring it.

glfredrick,

This nomenclature "poor ignorant calvinist" is beneath you.
Second, you can correct me if I am wrong, but no one has ever made the claim that "the freedom of mans will trumps God's sovereignty". Are you just getting frustrated because we "non-reformers" just dont get it?

 

[quantumfaith]

Here is a task for those espousing free will of humans...

Please give the rest of us poor ignorant Calvinists a nice list of all the verses where God says that we have freedom of will that trumps His sovereignty. I keep hearing about Scriptural proof for the fact that a person can reject God. Time to bring it.

Just make your list, and others can add to it. I'd love to see the verses where this is so. It would be VERY helpful if the passages said SOMETHING about free will, not just passages that may have one or more interpretations. I'm looking for the sort of powerful DIRECT Scriptural evidence that so many say exists in the Word.

We may repeat the exercise later with the Calvinists, where we post verses that directly apply to election and sovereignty.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die".....

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her and he ate it.

Genesis 2:15-17 and Genesis 3:6

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Americans just can't stand the thought of not having free will.

:thumbs:

Not limited to Americans but if you want some reference points, speak to Jim when he comes on here....he lives in Canada & before that England.

 

[quantumfaith]

Americans just can't stand the thought of not having free will.

:thumbs:

Purely anecdotal. I will add anecdotally it most likely applies to multitudes of others as well.

 

[preacher4truth]

Purely anecdotal. I will add anecdotally it most likely applies to multitudes of others as well.

Yes. I should have practiced pedanticism and named every soul on the face of the earth that doesn't like the thought.

You got me again. Shucks.

:love2:

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes. I should have practiced pendanticism and named every soul on the face of the earth that doesn't like the thought.

You got me again. Shucks.

:love2:

I am grateful though that you graciously accepted my sarcasm. :0

 

[preacher4truth]

I am grateful though that you graciously accepted my sarcasm. :0

Yes. Likewise.

:laugh:


:wavey:

 

[The Archangel]

The FACT that God allows man free choice concerning salvation is evident from Scripture.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The problems with applying this verse to free choice are these:

1. The word "whosoever" never appears in the Greek. The word is a participle and means the one desiring or the one willing. So, the one desiring or the one willing may come and take the water of life.

2. Probably the most challenging part to your verse is that it is a picture of the invitation to believers in the eternal kingdom. Revelation 21:6 uses the same expression--drinking of the water of life. So in the passage of Revelation 22, it is the case that John is referencing that...especially when one considers that John writes his epistles and the Revelation in a circular fashion.

So, this is not a "blanket" verse. It has a context and your interpretation breaks the context.

Even if your interpretation were correct, another objection would be the use of the participle translated as "the one desiring." There are a myriad of texts that show the natural man does not seek God. The desire needs to be changed and, because it is understood this passage is referring to the eternal state, it is assumed the changing of the desire has already happened (before physical death).

The Archangel

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1. The word "whosoever" never appears in the Greek.

Watch out! I know Greek. Who loves you baby?

 

[quantumfaith]

Watch out! I know Greek. Who loves you baby?

I dont know greek, other than for trig and calculus. What say you, does "whosoever" appear in the record?

 

[Robert Snow]

The problems with applying this verse to free choice are these:

1. The word "whosoever" never appears in the Greek. The word is a participle and means the one desiring or the one willing. So, the one desiring or the one willing may come and take the water of life.

2. Probably the most challenging part to your verse is that it is a picture of the invitation to believers in the eternal kingdom. Revelation 21:6 uses the same expression--drinking of the water of life. So in the passage of Revelation 22, it is the case that John is referencing that...especially when one considers that John writes his epistles and the Revelation in a circular fashion.

So, this is not a "blanket" verse. It has a context and your interpretation breaks the context.

Even if your interpretation were correct, another objection would be the use of the participle translated as "the one desiring." There are a myriad of texts that show the natural man does not seek God. The desire needs to be changed and, because it is understood this passage is referring to the eternal state, it is assumed the changing of the desire has already happened (before physical death).

The Archangel

So many words to discredit what I believe the Word of God plainly teaches. You sir, can keep Calvinism. I cannot abide it.

Have a blessed Christmas regardless! :wavey:

 

[The Archangel]

So many words to discredit what I believe the Word of God plainly teaches. You sir, can keep Calvinism. I cannot abide it.

Have a blessed Christmas regardless! :wavey:

Friend, this has nothing to do with Calvinism. This discussion is about simple hermeneutics. I'm afraid anything I say, because I'm a Calvinist, is automatically disregarded. If this is what you're thinking, it is very unfortunate.

So, in interest of discussing the text, can you tell me why what I said is incorrect?

I hope you too have a great Christmas

The Archangel

 

[glfredrick]

First of all, nothing trumps God. Right off the bat you've set up a wall between us.

But here are a couple of verses for you.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.



But, I'll bet you've seen those before.

Yup. And neither specifically targets "free will." Both have one possible interpretation that could be seen as free will, but neither rule out a Doctrines of Grace approach.

I'm looking for the rock solid, can only be free will passages. Surely there are some.

 

[glfredrick]

The FACT that God allows man free choice concerning salvation is evident from Scripture.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

"And the Spirit and the bride say..." God is first. Sorry.

 

[glfredrick]

Here is a task for those espousing free will of humans...

Please give the rest of us poor ignorant Calvinists a nice list of all the verses where God says that we have freedom of will that trumps His sovereignty. I keep hearing about Scriptural proof for the fact that a person can reject God. Time to bring it.

glfredrick,

This nomenclature "poor ignorant calvinist" is beneath you.
Second, you can correct me if I am wrong, but no one has ever made the claim that "the freedom of mans will trumps God's sovereignty". Are you just getting frustrated because we "non-reformers" just dont get it?

Nope. Not at all. I'm asking for a definitive Bible passage that can only be interpreted as free will that trumps God. That is what everyone has been arguing for, so I figured that there must be a TON of those sort of passages in Scripture. No frustration involved. I just figured that I was ignorant because I was having a difficult time finding a purely free will expression in the Word.