My questions as I study Reformed Theology

[Winman]

EAR is not talking about what lies on the side of your head. This means understanding.

So again, Jesus needs you Calvinists to explain what he is saying? Jesus doesn't know how to express himself properly? Jesus really meant to say understanding and not ear? Good thing you Calvinists came along to explain the scriptures for us.

The choice is for the believing.

No, the chosen are those whom believe. Go back and read the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22. Jesus said the kingdom of God is like a king who invited men to his son's wedding. He called and bid them to come but they refused. Because they refused he destroyed them.

Then he called other men who came, but one did not have the proper wedding garment. The garment represents the righteousness that is imputed only to those who believe on Jesus. This man was cast out. Then Jesus said;

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Were all that were called chosen? No. The first group was not chosen because they did not obey and come when they were called. One man who did come was cast out because he did not have on the proper garment. Only those who came and had the proper garment (showing they had believed and were imputed to be righteous) were chosen.

Indeed...and notice man ran from God, and it was God that came to man. Not like free willers say, that God would not force himself on anyone.

They did run at first. After all, what did God tell them was going to happen if they ate of this fruit? He said they would die in that day. I can't be dogmatic on this, but they might have ran away because they thought God was going to kill them. Nevertheless, as God continued to call they came to him, how do you think they carried out the recorded conversation? They also believed God's promise to send a Saviour as shown by Eve's statement in Gen 4:1.

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Eve was mistaken here I believe, she did not realize that Cain came from Adam, she believed it was the promised Saviour God had promised in Gen 3:15. Because they believed God's promise, God killed an innocent animal representing Christ and clothed them with it's skin, representing the righteousness imputed to believers.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

If election might stand, not of works, then how must it stand? Faith of course. Faith is always contrasted to works. This shows God elects those whom he knows by foreknowledge will believe.

That is a bold face lie. We agree with the Bible. We follow no man, save Christ.

Give me a break, some of you post photos of famous Calvinists in your avatars. On another thread Luke is almost being accused of Calvin worship. Who is the photo in your avatar?

 

[Winman]

Uh, no. I've always held it was by grace we are saved, but there you go again twisting my words backwards. I never said anything close to what you say here. My faith didn't save me. His grace did. You're clearly missing this doctrine of being saved by grace. Yep, the Scripture says by grace are you saved. Not by faith are you saved. As a matter of fact, you quoting Ephesians backwards there is exactly what you were espousing and saying earlier in this thread. Now you attempt to lay the charge on me. You in fact said faith comes first, then grace, to which you denied, but as you read down what you say now where I quoted you, you are saying this error again. You act as if we have EARNED grace due to our faith. That is borderline semi-pelagianism. Total error there.

You are being completely dishonest here. Several times now I have explained that grace must come first, we could not believe on Jesus if we had never heard of him. God giving us the truth in the scriptures is his grace.

What I have said and I will repeat is that you cannot receive this grace until you believe. That is very different.

I gave the analogy of the airplane. It can be shown to you, but that is not the same as getting on the plane.

And that is what the scriptures say, the grace that bringeth salvation has APPEARED to all men.

Titus 2:1 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God has revealed and shown Jesus Christ to the world. His grace has appeared to all men. That doesn't mean every man receives grace, for then all would be saved.

No, only those who believe receive this grace. Just seeing the airplane will not get you to your destination, you need a ticket to get on the plane. And it is the same with grace, God shows it to everyone, but only those who believe on Jesus have access into this grace.

And I have shown you scripture that says this exact thing. What scripture have you provided to support your view? Nothing.

I have to go soon and I will be travelling tomorrow, but I'll get back to you.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are being completely dishonest here. Several times now I have explained that grace must come first, we could not believe on Jesus if we had never heard of him. God giving us the truth in the scriptures is his grace.

What I have said and I will repeat is that you cannot receive this grace until you believe. That is very different.

I gave the analogy of the airplane. It can be shown to you, but that is not the same as getting on the plane.

And that is what the scriptures say, the grace that bringeth salvation has APPEARED to all men.

Titus 2:1 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God has revealed and shown Jesus Christ to the world. His grace has appeared to all men. That doesn't mean every man receives grace, for then all would be saved.

No, only those who believe receive this grace. Just seeing the airplane will not get you to your destination, you need a ticket to get on the plane. And it is the same with grace, God shows it to everyone, but only those who believe on Jesus have access into this grace.

And I have shown you scripture that says this exact thing. What scripture have you provided to support your view? Nothing.

I have to go soon and I will be travelling tomorrow, but I'll get back to you.

I gave you ample Scriptures to show how grace was bestowed prior to salvation.

You refuse to look at it.

You did in fact say faith saves you and comes first, then we get His grace. You believe faith earns Grace. Grace is freely given, not earned.



Then you changed your mind. Then you tried to say I said it.

Go read the Scriptures I gave you as proof God bestows grace prior to salvation instead of going on and on and on and on and on pretending you don't see the Scriptures relating to Abram, and Saul.

On top of that, you say I used a verse out of Corinthians, to prove something, which I never mentioned. Your facts and memory are off.

Go look at the evidence in Scripture I gave you. I gave you evidence. Now go look up Gen 12-15...Acts 9.


In addition to your error in interpreting Rev. 3:20-22, go take a look at some great expositors online who clearly show He was talking to His church about fellowship, not a gospel invitation, it is not an invitation to be saved, and they allude to the plain fact He is speaking to the church upon whose door He is knocking, as the Spirit clearly states it. Matthew Henry and Barnes clearly lacked understanding of the book of Revelation. It is an easy assumption to think this is a Gospel invitation. An honest look at the context proves this is not the case. Again it is "unto the churches" this message is given, not to the lost, as the text plainly attests.

What is the Gospel, Winman?

:thumbs:

here are references showing this invitation was to the church:

http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Revelation/commentary/htm/030320.htm#Revelation 3:20

http://bible.org/seriespage/message-laodicea-rev-314-22

http://www.albatrus.org/english/universalistic/universalistic_passages/revelation_3.20.htm

http://www.echozoe.com/archives/2228

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/pdf/revelation-3-20-reclaimed.pdf

There are plenty more. You are applying this verse. You need to learn to interpret.

 

[Luke2427]

We will never agree. Jesus said "He that hath an ear, let him hear". Well, I've got an ear, so I believe Jesus wants me to hear this. And as has been shown, there are reputable theologians who agree with my view.

I have never said that faith precedes grace, I've said that faith precedes "receiving" grace. That is a huge difference for any discerning person.

God has been showing his grace to man from the garden of Eden when he made the first promise to send a Saviour. Ancient men did not know the gospel as we know it, but they knew God was going to send someone to save them. That is grace.

But it is obvious not all men receive God's grace, or all men would go to heaven and none would go to hell. What is the difference?

In your system, God simply elects some persons to receive his grace and passes by the rest. You even try to say it is unconditional. Well, that's kind of a problem, as it argues God acts without reason. He must have some reason to elect some, and some reason to pass by others. If he has any reason, then it is conditioned on that reason.

For me this is not a problem. The scriptures clearly say we have access by faith into grace. The scriptures say without faith we cannot please God. Jesus said if you have believed not, then the wrath of God abides on you.

Your system contradicts Jesus. You have God giving unbelievers whom God's wrath abides on grace. Gotta tell you, that doesn't make sense at all. You have God giving grace to unbelievers when the scriptures say it is impossible to please God without faith. Again, that is totally nonsensical. You know, the first part of John 3:16 agrees with your view, it says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son" Now, if that is all it said, it would support your view to a degree. But that is not all it says, after that it says, "that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life". Well, there you go, this shows only those who believe and have faith receive this grace.

But hey, you've got a stack of books written by uninspired men that agree with your view.

I prefer to believe what the scriptures clearly and easily say.

You don't believe what the Scriptures say, Winman. You believe what you prefer to think and then go looking for proof texts to support what you prefer to think.

You do not believe the Word of God when it says, "God worketh ALL THINGs after the counsel of his own will."

You do not believe the Scriptures when they say, "For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things."

 

[Jarthur001]

So again, Jesus needs you Calvinists to explain what he is saying?

No. Just reading the full book helps.

Jesus doesn't know how to express himself properly? Jesus really meant to say understanding and not ear? Good thing you Calvinists came along to explain the scriptures for us.

No. In fact the Bible tells us that when Jesus told the gospel to others, many did not understand. Nick believed Jesus was talking about being born from his mother again.

Look, ...don't take my word for it. Read it your self.

In John 8 Jesus says...

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Now it is clear he is not talking about them having ears on the side of the head. They had been exchanging words back and forth. What he means is that they don't understand. right?

No, the chosen are those whom believe.

Isa 43..
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen, >>>>>>>>>so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.

Go back and read the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22.

Here is another reason to study theology. Never set doctrine based on a parable. Only use the point of the parable. What is the point? Verse 14 tells us...

14For many are called, but few are chosen.

If election might stand, not of works, then how must it stand? Faith of course. Faith is always contrasted to works. This shows God elects those whom he knows by foreknowledge will believe.

So your saying God chooses/elects those that choose him 1st? What is the point of the election, when they have already made that choice?

This is not what we see in te Bible.

Moses did come to God and say...I got a good idea...choose me and make a great nation.

God chose him.

Noah didn't say... God I have a idea...lets build a boat.

God elected Noah to build.

Paul didn't come to God and say...you save me and I'll stop killing believers.

God came to Paul and changed him.

Peter, and his brother Andrew, James son of Zebedee, and his brother John was picked /elected not by them going to Jesus and asking to be saved.

Jesus came to them

Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus; .......... and Judas Iscariot. All of them was picked by Jesus.

Judas was picked so that a OT passage would be true. Judas Iscariot had no choice but to follow what Christ knew would happen when he picked him.

I mean...I thnk I'll stick with the Bible on this one.


and besides...it is clear you have never traced your views to their logical ends. What I mean...when you say..God elects based on foreknowledge ........this changes nothing.

I would be glad to go over this with you...if you can't see why.

 

[glfredrick]

In your system, God simply elects some persons to receive his grace and passes by the rest. You even try to say it is unconditional. Well, that's kind of a problem, as it argues God acts without reason. He must have some reason to elect some, and some reason to pass by others. If he has any reason, then it is conditioned on that reason.

Your post points out the issues with our vantage point very well -- is it from a human perspective or God's perspective?


I do think that you have a problem with this statement, however:

For me this is not a problem. The scriptures clearly say we have access by faith into grace. The scriptures say without faith we cannot please God. Jesus said if you have believed not, then the wrath of God abides on you.

Even Arminians must invoke "prevenient grace" in order to explain how one dead in their sin and trespasses can come to have the faith to approach God.


Below is article IV of the Remonstrance -- the 5 articles of Arminian theology.

Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.

 

[psalms109:31]

Church

This is the message of Jesus about and from Him for the church to go out with.

Revelation 3:

20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

The message is to the angel(messenger) of the church.

Merry Christmas,

May our Lord and His word go with you.