Will- Is there not a cause?

[Luke2427]

So along your line of thinking, people murder other people because God made them that way. People rape little children because God made them that way.

It must be a sad thing to worship such an evil god. My God would never do that.

It doesn't matter at this point. At this point in the conversation we just want to determine if God is the ultimate cause behind our decisions.

If he is, then he is.

Your duty is to prove that he is NOT.

Saying God would never do this does not prove it. It just distracts from it.

 

[Nicholas25]

I am very, very intriqued by the, "Why" some accept Christ as their Lord and Savior and some do not. If I just looked at the drawing to salvation of Reformed Theology, I would say that, that is what I believe, but then I have to look at the, "Objects of wrath ready for destruction" (HCSB), and I have to pause. I cannot go all the way with it, yet. Someone posted on another thread that there's a mystery to the sovereignty in salvation that is not found in any theology. This could be true. Some do seem to get caught up in the fact that all are commanded to come to Christ through preaching, teaching, singing, and what we observe by the nature around us, but it does have to be something internal. None of us came to Christ until God convicted our hearts of sin and drew us to Jesus. All true Christians remember having their hearts dealt with, but most Christians assume that everyone is dealth with in this way, but that non-believers simply fought it off and just said no to the Lord.

 

[Havensdad]

And what does that mean? It means GOD controls your choices.

This is a hard pill for some to swallow.

Havensdad, I would really appreciate it if you can find time to give me your thoughts on the OP in this thread.

I don't think I need to. I am pretty sure everyone knows my feelings on it. Men choose certain things because of what their heart desires, and that desire is either determined by the sin nature, and Satan, or by God.

Some men choose death, because God has chosen to allow them to be led away by their own lusts; He has withheld His hand from them, and in some cases directly hardened them, so that their desire will still be towards sin. Because their desire is turned away from God, their choices, while made completely willingly, will be to their own selfish desires. They are unwilling, and therefore morally incapable, of doing anything other than rebelling against their creator.

Likewise, when God breaks the heart through His Word, implants the "heart of flesh" within his elect, through the preaching of His word, that person is given new desires; to repent, and have faith in Christ. Then, because of these new desires, they choose to repent and follow Christ. This is completely willing, but yet they would never think of doing anything else.

It is like a blind man behind the wheel of a car, who is racing towards a cliff. When he is given "eyes to see", he slams on the brakes! Not because he is forced, but simply because he is released from the bondage of his lack of sight.

 

[Havensdad]

My God would never do that.

That is a dangerous statement. The Pagans say the same thing about Christ, for burning adulterers in Hell for all eternity.

 

[RAdam]

We love Him because He first loved us. People who dislike the notion that God doesn't love everybody without exception and that God isn't trying to get everybody without exception into heaven really almost have to cut this verse out of the bible. Why do we love Christ? We love Him because He first loved us. His love for us is the cause of our love of Him. The bible did not say we love Him because of our own choice. We didn't choose to love Christ. Our love for Him is the result of His love for us.

Saying that Christ loves people who will go to their graves hating Him is ridiculous. Had Christ loved them, they would have loved Him. Hymn writer William Cowper put is this way: "did He but shine alike on all, then all alike would love."

 

[matt wade]

It doesn't matter at this point. At this point in the conversation we just want to determine if God is the ultimate cause behind our decisions.

If he is, then he is.

Your duty is to prove that he is NOT.

Saying God would never do this does not prove it. It just distracts from it.

So we have to follow you line of argument (which feels like a step by step guide from a cult book), but we aren't allowed to follow my line of argument? Well that's a quick way to shut down the discussion...the old "my way or the highway" routine.

I'll choose the highway. See ya'!

 

[BobinKy]

What is the cause of the existence of God?

...Bob

 

[Luke2427]

I am very, very intriqued by the, "Why" some accept Christ as their Lord and Savior and some do not. If I just looked at the drawing to salvation of Reformed Theology, I would say that, that is what I believe, but then I have to look at the, "Objects of wrath ready for destruction" (HCSB), and I have to pause. I cannot go all the way with it, yet. Someone posted on another thread that there's a mystery to the sovereignty in salvation that is not found in any theology. This could be true. Some do seem to get caught up in the fact that all are commanded to come to Christ through preaching, teaching, singing, and what we observe by the nature around us, but it does have to be something internal. None of us came to Christ until God convicted our hearts of sin and drew us to Jesus. All true Christians remember having their hearts dealt with, but most Christians assume that everyone is dealth with in this way, but that non-believers simply fought it off and just said no to the Lord.

The point Brother Nicolas is that there is a cause for EVERYTHING- including choices.

God OBVIOUSLY controls those causes.

So what are we to conclude about those who choose Christ?

That God caused them to choose Christ.

None of us humans find it palatable to consider that God leaves some to themselves to perish. Because we ARE humans like them and no better than them we think, "He could just as easily have passed over ME!!"

But that is emotional and not rational and scriptural.

It does not matter how it makes us feel- it matters if it is true.

The Bible and logic demand that it IS true.

We have to trust God with the rest and rejoice that God saved US!

 

[RAdam]

So along your line of thinking, people murder other people because God made them that way. People rape little children because God made them that way.

It must be a sad thing to worship such an evil god. My God would never do that.

People murder other people because they are led away of their own lusts. They are doing those things they desire to do because they are sinners.

One verse that gets very little attention but should is Proverbs 16:4 - "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

People get sidetracked when discussing God dealing with evil on this fictitious idea of God they have in their heads. People look at a guy like Hitler and ask why God made him and permitted him to do all he did. What the person who thinks such fails to realize is how many times God restrained wickedness and wicked men from doing such things. God knew what Manson would do before He put him on this earth. God didn't make him do anything, but He did allow it. Why? I don't have all the answers on that, but the bible says God made the wicked for the day of evil. He is enduring with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction to make His power known in the fullness of time.

 

[Luke2427]

What is the cause of the existence of God?

...Bob

God is not an effect so he doesn't have a cause.

The law is that every EFFECT has a cause.

Furthermore, that is a law of the universe which God exists above- he is not bound by ANY laws of the universe. Our choices ARE.

 

[Havensdad]

What is the cause of the existence of God?

...Bob

Nothing. God is the only thing that is self caused; actually, even this is an improper way of stating it.

Since He is the only "uncaused cause", He then, not our "free will" is the determiner of all.

 

[BobinKy]

What is the cause of the choices of God?

...Bob

 

[webdog]

If God causes your choices...He caused the choices of those who reject Him. The "salvation = monergistic, reprobation = synergistic" model doesn't hold water

 

[Luke2427]

If God causes your choices...He caused the choices of those who reject Him. The "salvation = monergistic, reprobation = synergistic" model doesn't hold water

Why? Why does it not hold water?

 

[Havensdad]

If God causes your choices...He caused the choices of those who reject Him. The "salvation = monergistic, reprobation = synergistic" model doesn't hold water

Man is fully responsible for his decisions. Is a murderer excused, simply because he desired to do as he did? Would we then turn him loose, and say "Sorry Mr. Murderer. We know you only did what you did, because you had a desire to do it."

No. That does not make sense. Men are responsible. They control their actions. Just because they have wicked desires, and act those out, in no way excuses them.

 

[Luke2427]

What is the cause of the choices of God?

...Bob

God is SELF centered.

I know you will love that one! I hated it back when I was an Arminian!

God must do things for the highest and noblest of reasons.

God cannot do things for lower than the best reasons.

HE is the highest and noblest of reasons for doing anything.

Therefore, if God is to do things for the right motive- he must do them for himself.

 

[Nicholas25]

The point Brother Nicolas is that there is a cause for EVERYTHING- including choices.

God OBVIOUSLY controls those causes.

So what are we to conclude about those who choose Christ?

That God caused them to choose Christ.

None of us humans find it palatable to consider that God leaves some to themselves to perish. Because we ARE humans like them and no better than them we think, "He could just as easily have passed over ME!!"

But that is emotional and not rational and scriptural.

It does not matter how it makes us feel- it matters if it is true.

The Bible and logic demand that it IS true.

We have to trust God with the rest and rejoice that God saved US!

Is there no room for mystery in the sovereignty of God in salvation that our limited minds (Isaiah 55:9) cannot comprehend? Again, I do agree there is a reason that some come to Christ and some do not. I know many say, "There is no favortism with God" (Romans 2:11), but that can be twisted a little, because even someone who believes entirely in free will, as many on here do, would admit to someone growing up in a Christian home having a perceived better chance (for lack of a better word at the moment) of accepting Christ. Some could say God was showing favortism by allowing them to be born in a God fearing home (again, we know Romans 2:11). I may believe Reformed Theology one day, but does it have to be that or nothing? Could the truth be a little of many theologies and not all of one?

 

[webdog]

Why? Why does it not hold water?

Because it is inconsistent. if He controls ALL decisions, He does just that.

 

[Luke2427]

Is there no room for mystery in the sovereignty of God in salvation that our limited minds (Isaiah 55:9) cannot comprehend? Again, I do agree there is a reason that some come to Christ and some do not. I know many say, "There is no favortism with God" (Romans 2:11), but that can be twisted a little, because even someone who believes entirely in free will, as many on here do, would admit to someone growing up in a Christian home having a perceived better chance (for lack of a better word at the moment) of accepting Christ. Some could say God was showing favortism by allowing them to be born in a God fearing home (again, we know Romans 2:11). I may believe Reformed Theology one day, but does it have to be that or nothing? Could the truth be a little of many theologies and not all of one?

The truth cannot violate the laws of non-contradiction which God set up.

In other words there cannot be a dollar in my wallet and NOT be a dollar in my wallet at the same time.

Salvation cannot be ALL of God and NOT all of God at the same time.

If we allow for the contrary then we have to conclude that NNE can know ANYTHING because EVERYTHING can be what it is and not what it is at the same time.

 

[webdog]

Man is fully responsible for his decisions. Is a murderer excused, simply because he desired to do as he did? Would we then turn him loose, and say "Sorry Mr. Murderer. We know you only did what you did, because you had a desire to do it."

No. That does not make sense. Men are responsible. They control their actions. Just because they have wicked desires, and act those out, in no way excuses them.

I never said man was not responsible, but if God determines ALL decisions, that means just that for everything including reprobation.

If men control their own action, according to what I have read here the past 6 years...that makes man sovereign over God!

This is not a "have my cake and eat it to" theology.