Will- Is there not a cause?

[quantumfaith]

Let me tell you what I find happens in these important discussions on baptistboard.

One will make an argument.

Another will respond ONLY to the parts he chooses and leave the rest alone. And then he will make an argument and one will only respond to what he wants to respond to, etc...

I would like to discuss this with you, but let me make a recommendation that I believe will help us.

Let's write our posts in paragraphs or lives separated by spaces. Then let's respond to EACH paragraph or line.

I will begin.

You asked would I counsel someone that it is NOT their free choice.

NO. But I understand free choice differently than I think most Arminians and non-reformed.

I actually believe in free will- but only if it is defined as Augustine, Calvin, Luther and Edwards defined it. The mind choosing; the freedom to do what you want. Free will is the ability to choose to do what you want to do.

The PROBLEM is that the "want" is corrupt for the unregenerate.

The other problem is that the "want" is determined by numerous factors.

Now, do you not agree that there is a reason behind every choice anyone makes?

That reason or reasons causes them to make the choices they make, right?

Now, answer this question, who controls those causes?

Amen, on this we AGREE. (Disclaimer: No intention is made or given to be snarky)

 

[matt wade]

Matt, I am not JUST going to answer YOUR questions. You are going to answer mine if we are to have a conversation.

Do you think that choices are made spontaneously or do choices have reasons?

Is there a reason why one chooses what he chooses?

I'm here to learn more about this Calvinism thing, not answer questions about what I believe. Is Calvinism so indefensible that you have to deflect the questions and try and focus on other people's belief?

Again I ask:

So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?

 

[Steven2006]

Let me tell you what I find happens in these important discussions on baptistboard.

One will make an argument.

Another will respond ONLY to the parts he chooses and leave the rest alone. And then he will make an argument and one will only respond to what he wants to respond to, etc...

I would like to discuss this with you, but let me make a recommendation that I believe will help us.

Let's write our posts in paragraphs or lives separated by spaces. Then let's respond to EACH paragraph or line.

I will begin.

You asked would I counsel someone that it is NOT their free choice.

NO. But I understand free choice differently than I think most Arminians and non-reformed.

I actually believe in free will- but only if it is defined as Augustine, Calvin, Luther and Edwards defined it. The mind choosing; the freedom to do what you want. Free will is the ability to choose to do what you want to do.

The PROBLEM is that the "want" is corrupt for the unregenerate.

The other problem is that the "want" is determined by numerous factors.

Now, do you not agree that there is a reason behind every choice anyone makes?

That reason or reasons causes them to make the choices they make, right?

Now, answer this question, who controls those causes?

Forget trying to win the debate for a moment. Forget trying to place rules on how the questions are asked. Humor me a moment, and lets pretend that a sixteen year old boy in your church is reading this thread and your posts. He comes into your office and says.

"Pastor Luke, I am so relieved, I have been in torment with my struggle over my s*xual preference. Then I read where you said how you desire calf livers and most people would choose the Krytal burger. You said we don't really have any free will because we have those desires placed in us, out of our controls. Thank you for making me feel better about my desires, and they really aren't my own, they are just my calf livers."

OK what do you say to this boy? Don't evade, or twist the answer in order to win an argument, explain in plain easy to understand English how you would answer. Make it clear to every young person that might be reading this thread.

 

[Luke2427]

I'm here to learn more about this Calvinism thing, not answer questions about what I believe. Is Calvinism so indefensible that you have to deflect the questions and try and focus on other people's belief?

Again I ask:

So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?

God decrees all things. Scripture says that "God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will" Ephesians 1

Scripture also says in Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

In good God is active; in bad God is passive but God still decrees it for his own purposes.

 

[Luke2427]

Forget trying to win the debate for a moment. Forget trying to place rules on how the questions are asked. Humor me a moment, and lets pretend that a sixteen year old boy in your church is reading this thread and your posts. He comes into your office and says.

Alright, Steve, this is a debate site- but if you want to take on the role of a sixteen year old boy for a few posts then I will do my best to accommodate.

But when you want to debate, I recommend we follow the format I enunciated.

"Pastor Luke, I am so relieved, I have been in torment with my struggle over my s*xual preference. Then I read where you said how you desire calf livers and most people would choose the Krytal burger. You said we don't really have any free will because we have those desires placed in us, out of our controls. Thank you for making me feel better about my desires, and they really aren't my own, they are just my calf livers."

OK what do you say to this boy? Don't evade, or twist the answer in order to win an argument, explain in plain easy to understand English how you would answer. Make it clear to every young person that might be reading this thread.

I am going to answer this question, but I want you to know that I resent the implication that I am only interested in winning an argument and that I would TWIST something to do so.


I'll call the boy, Timmy.

Timmy, you are accountable for the choices you make. The fact that you are only doing what you WANT is no help to you as an excuse- it would not be in a secular court of law neither will it be before the judgment bar of God.

I just graduated the year after the Pearl High School shootings and had personally tried to win the shooter to the Lord. He testified that he did not have a loving mother and his father had nothing to do with him. He testified that he was bullied all his life. These are the REASONS he gave for why he did what he did. Those reasons DID shape his desire to kill. But the judge found him guilty nonetheless for the murder of three people, including his mother.

He is now serving a life sentence in prison.

Timmy, except you repent you will perish.



Now, that would be my response to Timmy, but I expect the people on here to be sharper than Timmy.

I do believe in "free will" so long as free will is defined properly. It is the mind choosing; it is doing what you WANT. What this thread is about is the common "idea" of free will. That is what I am against.

 

[Steven2006]

I do believe in "free will" so long as free will is defined properly. It is the mind choosing; it is doing what you WANT. What this thread is about is the common "idea" of free will. That is what I am against.

Well I was just responding to your calf liver/burger analogy and your point that you don't really have a free choice, maybe you want to retract that. If not explain how is that any different than a s*xual preference?

 

[Luke2427]

Well I was just responding to your calf liver/burger analogy and your point that you don't really have a free choice, maybe you want to retract that. If not explain how is that any different than a s*xual preference?

See, this is the problem, Steven. I wrote all of that and you respond with a tiny little sentence, half of which in a pretty demeaning, kind of smart alek way, tells me to retract my remarks.

I will not retract them. They are consistent with what I am saying.
Free choice is bound by desire which is bound by forces that predate your existence and control it now.

I am sorry that you cannot see that.

Perhaps you will tell me what your hang up is and I will try to help you.

 

[Amy.G]

When a man works and acts according to his desires he is working or acting freely.

If an unregenerate man can only do evil and act only according to his evil desires, then he is not acting "freely". Freedom requires a choice.

 

[Jarthur001]

"Pastor Luke, I am so relieved, I have been in torment with my struggle over my s*xual preference. Then I read where you said how you desire calf livers and most people would choose the Krytal burger. You said we don't really have any free will because we have those desires placed in us, out of our controls. Thank you for making me feel better about my desires, and they really aren't my own, they are just my calf livers."

OK what do you say to this boy? Don't evade, or twist the answer in order to win an argument, explain in plain easy to understand English how you would answer. Make it clear to every young person that might be reading this thread.

This little story shows the will of man is a slave to his desires, that cannot be controlled by himself. As in any controlling sin, we do not have the power to overcome it on our own. To say, "this is just how God made me", still makes the sin a sin. Those that see little boys as a s*xual preference, or a dog as a s*xual preference, may be something that most of us can not relate to. But it is still a sin. And their is still a controlling factor in those that do these things.

We don't just say...STOP IT!!!. That does not work. They are slaves to the sin. In most cases, they too wish they could stop having such things in their mind. They don't have the power to overcome it.

You may not have the same problem, but I'm sure you too have some type of sin you cannot overcome. Maybe you eat to much. Maybe you lift sports up as your God. If its sports, maybe you really wish you could stop watching so much sports, .....your wife hates it. You spend no time with your kids. But, you just can't stop turning on ESPN and watching 10 hours every night. Maybe its time spent on the internet you cannot control..... I mean the list goes on.

To overcome sins, we must have the power of God in us. We must ask God to replace our desire with his will for us.

Calvinist are often said to believe men are robots controlled by God. I do wish that was true. But as long as we have control of our will, it will be controlled my our love and desires. This should be the desire of all believers, to be controlled by the Spirit. Ths can only happen when we love God with ALL of our heart.


SO......I would tell the little boy, that such was SIN, going by the Bible. I would tell him that even if this is his GREATIST desire, it still must be seen as SIN. Not just because I say it, but because God says so.

Also, I would tell him I understand that desires cannot be overcome on our own. I would tell him that Christ came to save sinners from their sin. Believing he was a helpless sinner and in need for someone to save him from his sins, he should cry out to God for salvation, and place his trust in his Son as his only Hope.

The boy as all men should ask God to change his heart. To take away his desires and replace them with Gods will.

 

[matt wade]

God decrees all things. Scripture says that "God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will" Ephesians 1

Scripture also says in Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

In good God is active; in bad God is passive but God still decrees it for his own purposes.

A simple yes or no will suffice:

So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?

 

[Steven2006]

See, this is the problem, Steven. I wrote all of that and you respond with a tiny little sentence, half of which in a pretty demeaning, kind of smart alek way, tells me to retract my remarks.

I will not retract them. They are consistent with what I am saying.
Free choice is bound by desire which is bound by forces that predate your existence and control it now.

I am sorry that you cannot see that.

Perhaps you will tell me what your hang up is and I will try to help you.

I don't have a hang up, I just don't understand. You use the analogy of you choosing an unpopular choice of calf livers to support the view that we are bound to choose things.

"Was your will to choose completely free with no inclinations to the one or the other? Absolutely not. If you are like most folks I know your will was bound to choose the burger."

I truly don't understand how then you are not saying people are not "bound" when they choose a s*exual preference.

I apologize if you felt I was being a smart alec, it wasn't my intention. I really believed that maybe you didn't mean what your calf liver analogy said, and would like to retract it. No offence meant.

 

[Luke2427]

If an unregenerate man can only do evil and act only according to his evil desires, then he is not acting "freely". Freedom requires a choice.

Choosing what you want is how I understand freedom.

Do you have an alternate definition?

Choosing what you want is still a choice; just because you always want evil doesn't make it any less a choice.

God always wants what is highest and noblest and holiest- does he not have freedom?

 

[Jarthur001]

If an unregenerate man can only do evil and act only according to his evil desires, then he is not acting "freely". Freedom requires a choice.

Poor understanding of bondage of the will.

The choice is always before us. But is never considered a reall choice because of our bondage to our desires. You know the story of a lion that will not eat hay. The hay is there for him to eat and he has a mouth that can indeed it it, but his NATURE never sees hay as a choice.

 

[Jarthur001]

A simple yes or no will suffice:

So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

 

[CF1]

Personally, I don't usually respond to this ongoing debate calvin vs arminius soteriology.

I can honestly say that I am a follower of neither.

To me, to say that God is in any manner or in any way the cause and/or author of sin to any degree by any venue is repulsive and the arguments thereof are orwellian doublethink.

On the other hand to say that we (mankind, collectively or individually) in any manner or in any way by any venue can effect our own salvation to any degree apart from the absolute sovereign power of God is equally as repulsive.

This is not an indictment of those brethren holding to either view and that is not say that I might not find myself in either camp at some time in the future. I have presently chosen indecision which I suppose is not so good in the eyes of some.

For now, I am caught in what I see as the great gulf fixed between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man concerning salvation.
But I am content to be here because He is with me and He knows my limitations.

NKJV Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.​

This is what I/we can do.

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.​

There are other conflicts between the calvin and arminus views which I cannot bridge with the Scripture.

There are also personal objections to pet doctrines in each view which I am simply unable to reconcile with Scripture.

I am however able to fellowship with either camp (and others camped along the way somewhere between the two), assuming of course that they have the indwelling Spirit.

Here is what I do know (and probably all of us as well): Christ has transformed my life and the Spirit witnesses to my spirit that I am a child of God.

Also "...whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".

God's blessings to all in this our season of joy.

HankD

Great points above.

No matter how little or how much clarity we have in drilling down to the deepest root cause that sparked our faith, we need to reach a very humble point where our heart has child like faith

Mark 10:14 (New American Standard Bible)
But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

 

[Steven2006]

This little story shows the will of man is a slave to his desires, that cannot be controlled by himself. As in any controlling sin, we do not have the power to overcome it on our own. To say, "this is just how God made me", still makes the sin a sin. Those that see little boys as a s*xual preference, or a dog as a s*xual preference, may be something that most of us can not relate to. But it is still a sin. And their is still a controlling factor in those that do these things.

We don't just say...STOP IT!!!. That does not work. They are slaves to the sin. In most cases, they too wish they could stop having such things in their mind. They don't have the power to overcome it.

You may not have the same problem, but I'm sure you too have some type of sin you cannot overcome. Maybe you eat to much. Maybe you lift sports up as your God. If its sports, maybe you really wish you could stop watching so much sports, .....your wife hates it. You spend no time with your kids. But, you just can't stop turning on ESPN and watching 10 hours every night. Maybe its time spent on the internet you cannot control..... I mean the list goes on.

To overcome sins, we must have the power of God in us. We must ask God to replace our desire with his will for us.

Calvinist are often said to believe men are robots controlled by God. I do wish that was true. But as long as we have control of our will, it will be controlled my our love and desires. This should be the desire of all believers, to be controlled by the Spirit. Ths can only happen when we love God with ALL of our heart.


SO......I would tell the little boy, that such was SIN, going by the Bible. I would tell him that even if this is his GREATIST desire, it still must be seen as SIN. Not just because I say it, but because God says so.

Also, I would tell him I understand that desires cannot be overcome on our own. I would tell him that Christ came to save sinners from their sin. Believing he was a helpless sinner and in need for someone to save him from his sins, he should cry out to God for salvation, and place his trust in his Son as his only Hope.

The boy as all men should ask God to change his heart. To take away his desires and replace them with Gods will.

I don't know that I would disagree with any of that. But you didn't say that we are, absolutely not completely free to make behavior choices, but rather bound to certain choices.

 

[Amy.G]

Poor understanding of bondage of the will.

The choice is always before us. But is never considered a reall choice because of our bondage to our desires. You know the story of a lion that will not eat hay. The hay is there for him to eat and he has a mouth that can indeed it it, but his NATURE never sees hay as a choice.

We have a choice but it's not a real choice.

Let a lion get hungry enough and he will eat anything.

 

[Jarthur001]

We have a choice but it's not a real choice.

Let a lion get hungry enough and he will eat anything.

Not really. A lion will die from starvation while sitting in hay. The hay would keep him alive, and he could eat it .....but his desire is to eat meat, so he will die.

 

[Jarthur001]

But you didn't say that we are, absolutely not completely free to make behavior choices, but rather bound to certain choices.

I don't follow you. Please help me to see your point.

 

[Amy.G]

Not really. A lion will die from starvation while sitting in hay. The hay would keep him alive, and he could eat it .....but his desire is to eat meat, so he will die.

You've never owned animals have you? :laugh:

A dog or a goat will eat anything! Especially if it is starving.

And that is because it's in it's nature to survive!

You guys really need to pick a better analogy.