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The Terrible Price of Religious Freedom.

N

Nevada

New Member
Seems as if many folks think we have religious freedom in the USA for Christians alone. The generous include Jews.

Judeo-Christian

But, on page 25 of his autobiography, Thomas Jefferson said it was for "hindoos, Mahomatans, and heretics . .", also. Non-believers and atheists, to boot.

My thinking, which you're free to disagree with, is that true religious freedom is a frightening thing. It is a good thing, but a frightening thing. Lots of people think it is free. Well, if they think of a cost at all, they think of soldiers and sailors dying to defend it. But, there are other costs. We have to respect heretics, hindoos, Mohmatans, atheists, Buddhists, Catholics, Mormons, Hari Krishnas, etc., etc. And not tax them, nor ourselves.

Can we have a watered down, semi-religious freedom? Leaving out ugly or alien beliefs?
 
S

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
Nevada said:
Seems as if many folks think we have religious freedom in the USA for Christians alone. The generous include Jews.

Judeo-Christian

But, on page 25 of his autobiography, Thomas Jefferson said it was for "hindoos, Mahomatans, and heretics . .", also. Non-believers and atheists, to boot.

My thinking, which you're free to disagree with, is that true religious freedom is a frightening thing. It is a good thing, but a frightening thing. Lots of people think it is free. Well, if they think of a cost at all, they think of soldiers and sailors dying to defend it. But, there are other costs. We have to respect heretics, hindoos, Mohmatans, atheists, Buddhists, Catholics, Mormons, Hari Krishnas, etc., etc. And not tax them, nor ourselves.

Can we have a watered down, semi-religious freedom? Leaving out ugly or alien beliefs?
Click to expand...


I am sure T.J. didn't include *any* radical religious groups commiting atrocities such as cutting off peoples heads with pocket knives.

Religous Tolerance, has turned into a PC term that means tolerance for any and all religions (including murderous radical islam) except for Christianity.

Now, my question and challenge for you is an accessible bibliographic reference for your premise that T.J. Included anything and everything in his portrayal and concept of Reigious Freedom...

Thank You
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Religious freedom means we cannot tell Muslims how to worship. It does not mean we have to give them money - but we cannot dictate that they worship in a Christian Church or pick the day they worship etc.

in Christ,

Bob
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
We may use our church bells once a week or twice on that day. Many churches here in SA -- Reformed etc, --- don't do it any more, or ring only a few soft gongs.

Islam alarms the whole town seven times a day with that monotonous sound like it comes from hell. No consideration for whosoever or whatsoever! To worship 'Allah' : 'Up Above' the drone must travel FAR, and over and down upon everybody even brutes scared to death. Islam is a violent religion! It KNOWS NOT LOVE and despises it of all things good, most. Lord, have mercy on us; protect us against your foe and the hater of your people.

Islam is worse than the seven last plagues together at once. HE WHO WELCOMES OR PROTECTS ISLAM IS ANTICHRIST. GOD SHALL JUDGE HIM.
 
G

glfredrick

New Member
One could make (and it has been made) an argument that Jefferson did not have exactly the same worldview as the rest of the Founding Fathers in regards to religion. His interpretation was akin to our modern "liberal Protestant" who did not see much of God in much of anything. The original 13 colonies all were founded on Christian principles, and in many cases actually had a religious standard or test for officials seeking office that would have excluded any of the persons Jefferson included.

That being said, we now interpret our Constitution as one of religious liberty, including any who would worship in America by virtually any means. Like it or not, this is the law of the land.

The one thing that is not the law of the land is the restriction of religious liberty -- and sadly -- that is exactly where our government is headed with the persecution of the Christian worldview, removal of all things Christian from the public square, etc. The 2nd Amendment grants that the government not institute a state religion, not that it has the power to cause religious person their free exercise, in or out of church buildings.
 
menageriekeeper

menageriekeeper

Active Member
HE WHO WELCOMES OR PROTECTS ISLAM IS ANTICHRIST. GOD SHALL JUDGE HIM.
Click to expand...

Did you just call me an antichrist? Wow, I haven't ever been called that before. :rolleyes:

Islam, Hinduism, Buddism and the like are all antiChrist. However, in the US we tolerate one another because freedom of religion is part of the bedrock of our Constitution. We don't have to like or agree with them to tolerate them.

Now, don't get me wrong, I believe Islam is a violent religion that is rife with extremists. However, a call to prayer to a false god hardly threatens my way of life. And if they are calling to arms, well I live in a country that allows me plenty of them and I exercise that right judiciously.

(yeah, liberal is the usual name folks here call me)
 
S

SpiritualMadMan

New Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
----snip---
Islam alarms the whole town seven times a day with that monotonous sound like it comes from hell. No consideration for whosoever or whatsoever!
----snip----
Click to expand...

In the US you could invite The Eagle Mountain Bike Club to town and have them parade near the mosque. (A Christian Motorcycle Club)

Then, invite some ethic minorities to drive through with their car stereos playing RAP...

I am sure that turn about is fair play...

Alternately, you could record the prayer calls and rent a sound truck to replay them outside the imams house seven times a night, preferrable during his sleeping hours...

Lastly, you could use that same sound truck to play Christmas Carols sung my Carolers on the street... :D

Yes, I know, I have only to make one guess as to *who* would be arrested and fined!

*if* that peaceful tolerant religious group bothered to call the police before they hacked your heads off!

If long guns were legal, I'd say have a sniper 1,000 yards off and have them shoot the loud speakers!

Honestly, I don;t know what I'd do if such a mosque moved close enough to cause us such pain. It's a cinch that my already under-water mortgage would go even deeper in the property values ditch...
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
As the crow flies two kilometers from me in Midrand Gauteng South Africa, a mosque is nearing completion. Its size and beauty must be unequalled anywhere in the world! It is grandiose and magnificent it's unbelievable!! The noise will match, certainly.

What puzzles me about this structure is that it has THREE minarets towering far above and over the whole urban area of four major cities in SA, Midrand, Kempton Park, Johannesburg and Pretoria. Each minaret has balconies at three levels. Now I wonder if those three minarets with their three balconies each, are not meant symbolically for Allah's victory over the arch enemies of Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Buddhism, but especially over the Tri-Une God of Christianity?
 
menageriekeeper

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Even if they are, WE know the end of the story. What they claim and what reality is are two different things.

When God says "every knee shall bow", I believe HIM!
 
J

JTornado1

Member
glfredrick said:
One could make (and it has been made) an argument that Jefferson did not have exactly the same worldview as the rest of the Founding Fathers in regards to religion. His interpretation was akin to our modern "liberal Protestant" who did not see much of God in much of anything. The original 13 colonies all were founded on Christian principles, and in many cases actually had a religious standard or test for officials seeking office that would have excluded any of the persons Jefferson included.

That being said, we now interpret our Constitution as one of religious liberty, including any who would worship in America by virtually any means. Like it or not, this is the law of the land.

The one thing that is not the law of the land is the restriction of religious liberty -- and sadly -- that is exactly where our government is headed with the persecution of the Christian worldview, removal of all things Christian from the public square, etc. The 2nd Amendment grants that the government not institute a state religion, not that it has the power to cause religious person their free exercise, in or out of church buildings.
Click to expand...

The first amendment grants that the government not institute a state religion. The second amendment is about the right to keep and bear arms.
 
menageriekeeper

menageriekeeper

Active Member
Sorry GE, I only meant that it should matter not to one who's hope is in Christ, what those who follow a false god mean by their symbols. They may think they have the victory over the God of Abraham and His son Jesus, but they are very wrong. We Christians have the end of the story. our business is not to force men to Christ, but to live Christ so that the world through us might know Him.
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
menageriekeeper said:
Sorry GE, I only meant that it should matter not to one who's hope is in Christ, what those who follow a false god mean by their symbols. They may think they have the victory over the God of Abraham and His son Jesus, but they are very wrong. We Christians have the end of the story. our business is not to force men to Christ, but to live Christ so that the world through us might know Him.
Click to expand...

GE:
Fortunately, as I said, your signature line ...

But you or anyone else has a snowball's hope in hell about Muslims converting to Christianity.
 
N

Nevada

New Member
glfredrick said:
One could make (and it has been made) an argument that Jefferson did not have exactly the same worldview as the rest of the Founding Fathers in regards to religion. His interpretation was akin to our modern "liberal Protestant" who did not see much of God in much of anything. The original 13 colonies all were founded on Christian principles, and in many cases actually had a religious standard or test for officials seeking office that would have excluded any of the persons Jefferson included.

That being said, we now interpret our Constitution as one of religious liberty, including any who would worship in America by virtually any means. Like it or not, this is the law of the land.

The one thing that is not the law of the land is the restriction of religious liberty -- and sadly -- that is exactly where our government is headed with the persecution of the Christian worldview, removal of all things Christian from the public square, etc. The 2nd Amendment grants that the government not institute a state religion, not that it has the power to cause religious person their free exercise, in or out of church buildings.
Click to expand...

Actually, Jefferson was not alone in his sentiments. James Madison, "Father of the Constitution" said the best thing to ever happen to religion was its total separation from the state. In a letter:

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm
 
N

Nevada

New Member
glfredrick said:
One could make (and it has been made) an argument that Jefferson did not have exactly the same worldview as the rest of the Founding Fathers in regards to religion. His interpretation was akin to our modern "liberal Protestant" who did not see much of God in much of anything. The original 13 colonies all were founded on Christian principles, and in many cases actually had a religious standard or test for officials seeking office that would have excluded any of the persons Jefferson included.

That being said, we now interpret our Constitution as one of religious liberty, including any who would worship in America by virtually any means. Like it or not, this is the law of the land.

The one thing that is not the law of the land is the restriction of religious liberty -- and sadly -- that is exactly where our government is headed with the persecution of the Christian worldview, removal of all things Christian from the public square, etc. The 2nd Amendment grants that the government not institute a state religion, not that it has the power to cause religious person their free exercise, in or out of church buildings.
Click to expand...

Tlfredrick,

What you see as the persecution of Christianity is actually the best thing to ever happen to Christianity. It is what Madison and Jefferson advocated, not just what today's "liberals" advocate. When Madison said, "total separation" he meant just that. Because otherwise, we end up with a European-style socialized religion, with tax support of Catholic schools, cult schools, Islamic schools, etc. Empty churches on Sunday. Just look at Europe.

Religious freedom is all-or-nothing, though many today want a watered down version, thinking that will work. (They balk at "paying the price" for religious freedom.)

I see a conspiracy of European-style religious socialists. They want tax dollars. They want to bind the clergy and the flock with chains of the treasury.

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm
 
N

Nevada

New Member
SpiritualMadMan said:
I am sure T.J. didn't include *any* radical religious groups commiting atrocities such as cutting off peoples heads with pocket knives.

Religous Tolerance, has turned into a PC term that means tolerance for any and all religions (including murderous radical islam) except for Christianity.

Now, my question and challenge for you is an accessible bibliographic reference for your premise that T.J. Included anything and everything in his portrayal and concept of Reigious Freedom...

Thank You
Click to expand...

Here you go!

Just search the word "Hindoo" in the little box, and the page will come up. Page 30.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/34127101/T...-Autobiography
 
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