Why is it a question? John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life, he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. Did Jesus say the dead can believe in this verse? John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Which comes first here, believeing or having life? So why is there a question?
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Explain This:
- Thread starter preacher4truth
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Two things to note. One is that sometimes a doctrine might not be able to be proved on a single proof text. Second, I would say there is no verse. I do not see how a person can be regenerated but not have faith
That verse mentions nothing about believing before you have life. It says that all those that believe(or have faith) have life.
so,
the number of verses that say that you can be regenerate but not have faith = 0
the number of verses that say that you can have faith but not be regenerate = 0
My conclusion: They happen at the same time. We know that regeneration is all of God and not of the will of man(John 1:13), but it also says that those that believe in the previous verse. I think it is something we will not fully understand. Now, I'm not trying to make a cop out answer here as it may seem. I do believe that salvation begins with God. I also believe salvation is all of God. Our faith(the ability to believe) is a gift from God. (Rom 12:3, Eph 2:8, Heb 12:2, Rom 10:17). I believe this happens at regeneration. So if a person has been regenerated, they have faith. If a person has faith, they have been regenerated. There is no in between. It happens at the same time.
Saw you had this so I would add to that. It says that "he that believeth in me(Christ)...shall...live." Can a dead person believe? Not really. You would then have a person who is dead in their trespasses and sins having faith. So is their no hope for a dead person? Of course not. When a person believes, they have life. When they have life they can believe. It all depends on where you think the ability to believe comes from. You or God. Our you saved by the will of man or the will of God? I say the will of God.
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So a verse that says that Christ made us alive when we were dead doesn't work for you? The verse that shows that we did nothing to be made alive - not even faith - because we were still dead in our sins?? Interesting.
Well, how about 1 John 5:1 that shows us that everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God? So one cannot believe that Jesus is the Christ if they have not been born of God. So that means an unregenerate person cannot believe that Jesus is the Christ.
Well, how about 1 John 5:1 that shows us that everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God? So one cannot believe that Jesus is the Christ if they have not been born of God. So that means an unregenerate person cannot believe that Jesus is the Christ.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Actually, it says he that is born of God believes. Unfortunately, it is you who have twisted this.
The Archangel
So, all these scholars that translated the scriptures all got it wrong and only you know how it should properly be written? Maybe you should translate the scriptures to enlighten the world. Then your genius will be recognized.
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"
No twisting at all about it. The one who believes is one who is born of God. If one is not born of God, he does not believe. That is consistent with the rest of scripture that tells us "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." (1 Corinthians 2:14) So we see that the natural man without God's quickening cannot understand the things of God.
I'm sorry but the Scriptures are really quite clear.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Your attitude concerning someone whom you should regard as a brother in Christ is staggeringly bad. Like so many other times, you do not deal with the issue at hand. Rather, you make the person the issue.
This verse is yet another example of how the KJV has gotten things wrong. Here is the verse in the KJV:
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him
As someone else has said: The understanding of Greek has progressed far in the last 400 years since the KJV was translated. We simply know more today about Greek and we know better.
The KJV misses the verb "is born." This verb is not present (as "is" would suggest). The verb is perfect and it is passive. The passive means that the person has been acted upon (and is not performing the birthing themselves). The perfect represents a present state resulting from a past action. So, modern translations that say "has been born" are much more correct.
Now, the King's English of 400 years ago might have understood "is" in the perfect sense. However, English today does not. Yet another reason the KJV has lived long past its usefulness.
The Archangel
Yes they are. The theme of the Gospel of John is stated in this way:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31)
Belief always comes first.
From what I have read, it did. this is the problem when people try to read a 400 year old translation with 2010 definitions.
Ann, you will never find a single verse in the Bible where it places having life, or being born of God before believeing. Now, the moment you believe you are given life, but faith must necessarily precede having life. Until you believe on Jesus your sins cannot be forgiven, so there is no way to have life until you first believe. I have presented many verses that perfectly support this, those on your side have not presented even one. Believe whatever you want, you have been told.
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I agree. It means you must have faith in order to be born again.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Faith is first.
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God."
Faith is first.
Faith is always first.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
John's typical usage of "born" does mean that one is born again before one has faith.
Here's a good article on this subject, including this verse: http://www.9marks.org/ejournal/does-regeneration-necessarily-precede-conversion
The Archangel
They happen at the same time. It's not faith before regeneration it's not regeneration before faith. that would imply that you can have faith without being regenerate or be regenerate without faith. both of which are not taught in Scripture. We know that regeneration is all of God and not of the will of man(John 1:13), but it also says that those that believe in the previous verse. I think it is something we will not fully understand. Now, I'm not trying to make a cop out answer here as it may seem. I do believe that salvation begins with God. I also believe salvation is all of God. Our faith(the ability to believe) is a gift from God. (Rom 12:3, Eph 2:8, Heb 12:2, Rom 10:17). I believe this happens at regeneration. So if a person has been regenerated, they have faith. If a person has faith, they have been regenerated. There is no in between. It happens at the same time.
Life comes first.
It also comes during.
It also comes after and continues on.
Whoever believes will have and does have and has had life.
Just as whoever breathes and will continue to breath does have and will have and has had life.
But life still precedes breathing.
Life precedes believing as well.
Jesus said, "Except ye be born again ye cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."
I John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."
Which came first? Believing or being born of God? Being born of God.
Whosoever serves as a police officer has been inducted into police force.
Being inducted into the police force precedes serving as a police officer.
Just so "whosoever believeth HAS BEEN born of God" means that being born of God precedes believing.
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The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This coming from someone who gives "Just because" answers about verses (rather than explaining the verses themselves) and then turns to attack his opponents.
And we're the blinded ones?
The Archangel
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