Explain This:

[jbh28]

I provided John 11:25 and John 6:40, DHK provided John 20:31, John 1:12 and several others. All of these verses say you first believe to have life. I don't expect you to accept this, but you have been shown.

Ok, let's look at those 4 and see if any of them say that faith comes "first."

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,​

Everyone that believes will live(or have life. ) - nothing about believe coming before life.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

It's the Father's will that everyone that believes will have eternal life - nothing about belief coming before life

John 20:31
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.​

The book of John(and by extension we could say the Bible) was written so that we may believe. If we believe, we will have life. If we don't believe, we don't have life. - nothing about belief coming before life.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,​

all that believed had the right to be children of God. Before we are saved, we have no right to be a child of God. When we believe, we know have that right(authority) to be a child of God. - nothing about believe coming before life

none of these verses says that a person has faith(or believes) before they are regenerate. It just says that all that believe will have life and by extension those that don't believe will not have life.

 

[jbh28]

No, no man is saved of his own will, man will always seek to save himself through works.

Well said

It is God's will to save us through faith in his Son.

Agreed!

This is why Jesus came into this world and revealed his Father's will to us. It was Jesus himself that told us we would be saved if we believe on him. When you believe on Jesus you are submitting to the Father's will.

Amen and amen!

Now, to the real question. What causes a man who "will always seek to save himself through works" stop seeking through works and believe?

 

[Luke2427]

I follow what the Bible teaches; not your philosophy.

You have NEVER shown this to be true in the Scriptures. To do so you have to take Scriptures out of context and ignore the totality of Scriptures. Faith comes first, every time. The fact that eternal life is already there is irrelevant. That is what makes your position so illogical. It is like walking into a restaurant to sit and have a meal. What comes first: ordering the food or eating the meal. The food is always there to order. But unless you avail yourself of that opportunity and actually do the ordering and eat the food, it avails you nothing. But the food is always there to order.
See how ridiculous your question is. Eternal life is always there. It is yours to appropriate and enjoy. Jesus said: "I am come that you might have life and life more abundantly." How? By faith. It can only be appropriated by faith.

I read the words very clearly (perhaps you cannot see them) even to them that believe on his name.

True. Until they are born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the comparison that is being made in 1Cor.2:12-14. So why take Scripture out of context?

That we might have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--yes. And all that comes by faith.

And Nicodemus did become a believer. He put his faith and trust in Christ. We see him later exercising his faith along with Joseph of Arimathea and other women at the burial of Christ. He became "a believer," meaning "he believed."

Correct. He is born again because he has believed.
The same is true of the saved. They are saved because they have believed.
Faith or belief comes first every time.

I have already sufficiently addressed everything in this post. You will not get it because you are blind to it- willfully.

If you think you have one particularly good argument in all of this point it out and I will address that.

 

[Winman]

Ok, let's look at those 4 and see if any of them say that faith comes "first."

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,​

Everyone that believes will live(or have life. ) - nothing about believe coming before life.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

It's the Father's will that everyone that believes will have eternal life - nothing about belief coming before life

John 20:31
but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.​

The book of John(and by extension we could say the Bible) was written so that we may believe. If we believe, we will have life. If we don't believe, we don't have life. - nothing about belief coming before life.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,​

all that believed had the right to be children of God. Before we are saved, we have no right to be a child of God. When we believe, we know have that right(authority) to be a child of God. - nothing about believe coming before life

none of these verses says that a person has faith(or believes) before they are regenerate. It just says that all that believe will have life and by extension those that don't believe will not have life.

All of those verses clearly and plainly say you must first believe to have life. If you can't see that, you have no discernment at all.

 

[DHK]

I have already sufficiently addressed everything in this post. You will not get it because you are blind to it- willfully.

If you think you have one particularly good argument in all of this point it out and I will address that.

Is this your rebuttal.
I give you the same. I stand by my post. I have given you an answer for all that you have stated. Your statements are illogical and don't hold water. Perhaps you never will get it "because you are blind to it--willfully."

 

[Luke2427]

All of those verses clearly and plainly say you must first believe to have life. If you can't see that, you have no discernment at all.

None of them do- If YOU can't see that then you have no business participating in a theological discussion.

We have shown you clearly how they do not.

If the best you can do is say, "Ah Haaaah- they do too!!!"

Then your done. We have exhausted the limits of your ability to converse on this matter.

 

[DHK]

Oh, so man is born of God by the will of Man(faith) and not of the will of God

Study that verse out. Check out some commentaries. The phrase "will of man" does not refer to "faith."

 

[Luke2427]

Is this your rebuttal.
I give you the same. I stand by my post. I have given you an answer for all that you have stated. Your statements are illogical and don't hold water. Perhaps you never will get it "because you are blind to it--willfully."

edited...................

 

[jbh28]

All of those verses clearly and plainly say you must first believe to have life. If you can't see that, you have no discernment at all.

please share where it says that faith comes first. All they say is that faith is required, nothing about it coming before.

 

[jbh28]

Study that verse out. Check out some commentaries. The phrase "will of man" does not refer to "faith."

You didn't respond to what I said. I'll let you try again cause I'm nice. You say we must do something before we are born of God. We must by our own "will" have faith to be regenerate. So you are the one saying that. You guys are saying that we must have faith by our own will, so that's why I put "faith" beside of the will of man.

 

[Winman]

please share where it says that faith comes first. All they say is that faith is required, nothing about it coming before.

This is childish, if I said "He that cleans his room shall have candy tonight", you would easily understand what must take place first. I promise you my children would easily understand. You understand those verses, you just don't like that they refute your doctrine.

 

[Luke2427]

This is childish, if I said "He that cleans his room shall have candy tonight", you would easily understand what must take place first. I promise you my children would easily understand. You understand those verses, you just don't like that they refute your doctrine.

I've proven to you that they don't mean what you try to force them to mean.

You do not respond because you can't.

 

[Winman]

Luke, you have completely convinced me that if I said, "He that cleans his room shall have candy tonight" that it would go right over your head. I sincerely believe now that you are incapable of understanding simple statements like this.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, you have completely convinced me that if I said, "He that cleans his room shall have candy tonight" that it would go right over your head. I sincerely believe now that you are incapable of understanding simple statements like this.

You don't listen. You think you are right and you cannot even hear it when someone points out that it is not so.

Your illustration is too simplistic but I'll go with it.

Just because your children will have candy AFTER they clean their rooms tonight, it does not mean that they have never had candy previously. Any child can understand that.

You read John 20:31 "These things are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name."

And your mind thinks too simplistically to understand that this verse does not negate the fact that life could very well have existed before believing.

These birth things happen that you might breath and that breathing you might have life.

Now my children can understand that life precedes breathing in this sentence. My children can see that this sentence does not mean that life did not exist before breathing.

These are written that ye might believe and that believing you might have life.

Believing is necessary for life just like breathing is necessary for life. But life precedes both breathing and believing.

Now I expect you will not respond to most of this but rather disappear and come back and paint some more verses red and blue for us.

 

[jbh28]

This is childish, if I said "He that cleans his room shall have candy tonight", you would easily understand what must take place first. I promise you my children would easily understand. You understand those verses, you just don't like that they refute your doctrine.

totally different situation. If salvation was by works, then you might have a point. They don't teach that faith happens before regeneration. Then you would have people with faith and not be born again.

again I ask, "What causes a man who "will always seek to save himself through works" stop seeking through works and believe?"

 

[The Archangel]

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I understand English which is what my Bible is written in.

Scripture says that we are justified by faith.

If you're born again before faith, you are born again before you have been justified, which makes you a born again, unjustified sinner.

Regeneration and Justification are not the same. Regeneration necessarily leads to Justification, but Justification (a declaration of non-guilt by God) is only after belief (or faith).

The issue is this: What caused that faith?

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

You don't listen. You think you are right and you cannot even hear it when someone points out that it is not so.

Your illustration is too simplistic but I'll go with it.

Just because your children will have candy AFTER they clean their rooms tonight, it does not mean that they have never had candy previously. Any child can understand that.

You read John 20:31 "These things are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name."

And your mind thinks too simplistically to understand that this verse does not negate the fact that life could very well have existed before believing.

These birth things happen that you might breath and that breathing you might have life.

Now my children can understand that life precedes breathing in this sentence. My children can see that this sentence does not mean that life did not exist before breathing.

These are written that ye might believe and that believing you might have life.

Believing is necessary for life just like breathing is necessary for life. But life precedes both breathing and believing.

Luke, God knows how to express himself, if he wanted to say, "But these are written that ye might have life, and having life ye might believe." he could have said so. Your argument is just like Archangel's. But you still have a problem because it says, "But these are written, that ye might". Now, can these written words cause life? No. Can written words cause belief? Yes. If God simply makes you alive, the gospel is unnecessary. But I don't expect you to grasp this.

 

[quantumfaith]

Regeneration and Justification are not the same. Regeneration necessarily leads to Justification, but Justification (a declaration of non-guilt by God) is only after belief (or faith).

The issue is this: What caused that faith?

The Archangel

It is synegistically appropriated. First the grace and mercy of God offers salvation to mankind through the agency, conviction and illumination of the Holy Spirit. Man Must respond to God's grace with faith and belief, or else it does not happen.

It is monergistic in that, it is God who has designed, and offered "so great a salvation", without His expression of grace and mercy salvation would not even be a possiblity.

Once again, this debate about "regeneration" being necessary prior to faith is rooted in the "reformed" adherence to Augustinian "total depravity". We non-cals simply do not view the "depravity of man" in the same way as the "reformed" brethren.

 

[glfredrick]

All of those verses clearly and plainly say you must first believe to have life. If you can't see that, you have no discernment at all.

How does a spiritually dead person "believe"?

 

[quantumfaith]

"The Total Inability passed to us makes it impossible for us to comply with the command to believe in Christ. The most obvious fault with this doctrine is that it makes the gospel an unreasonable demand. How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), knowing the command is impossible to obey?

This is a vexing problem for Calvinists. They will often assert that a command does not necessarily imply the ability to keep it. But the statement is certainly not self-evident. If God gives a command and threatens to punish as responsible agents those who do not comply, it certainly does imply the ability to obey. Orville Dewey writes: "...it would follow that men are commanded, on peril and pain of all future woes, to love a holiness and a moral perfection of God, which they are not merely unable to love, but of which, according to the supposition, they have no conception."9

That puts the Calvinist in a conundrum. Man is so corrupt, he will not and cannot obey even the slightest spiritual command - nor can he appreciate or even understand it. Yet, God orders him to believe; He punishes him for not believing. As Judge of the Universe, he justly condemns the sinner for not doing what he from birth cannot do. This seems to many of us to be at loggerheads with God's revealed character.

The Old Testament demands never seemed to be presented as impossibilities for the hearers. Moses said, "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach" (Deut. 30:11). What of Total Inability here? Are we to assume that all of the hearers had received the miracle of Efficacious Grace? Moses adds, "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways and the commands, decrees and laws..." (v.19).

Moses sets life and death before the Israelites for their consideration. There is no intimation there that he was speaking to people utterly incapable of complying with the commands. He presents the prospects of life and death as genuine options for them to ponder.

Joshua urged the Israelites, "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:15). There is nothing in Joshua's entreaty that suggests the Israelites were all unable to choose the Lord unless they first experienced an inward miracle.

Joshua did say that the people were "not able to serve the Lord" in their present sinful state (v.19). Repentance was in order. They were called upon to make a choice of the heart and turn from their evil ways. Joshua said, "throw away your foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel" (v.23). Nowhere are we left with the impression that these people were all in a state of Total Inability from birth, innately incapable of yielding as Joshua commanded. Such an idea must be read into the text.

The New Testament uses the same language. On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached before thousands who had gathered in Jerusalem. Luke writes, "With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation'" (Acts 2:40). Was Peter "pleading" with these people to do something they were impotent to do? He certainly gives no hint of it. Furthermore, Peter's admonition "save yourselves" would probably be viewed as less than orthodox by many Calvinists.

Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" (v.12). Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."

Calvinist preachers will sometimes say that they can never persuade natural men of the gospel no matter how openly, clearly and earnestly they may preach it. It is like presenting a sermon to a corpse - there is no response. Jesus, however, felt it necessary to obscure his message in parables to keep certain people from responding to it. Had he preached the truth openly they would have turned and been forgiven. This fact alone is fatal to the Calvinist position, for it contradicts the notion that all men have a native inability to believe.

Jesus sometimes "marvelled" at the unbelief of his hearers (Mark 6:6). But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God."


Steve Jones