Invitation or Summons

[Luke2427]

You didn't address the clarification on 1 Cor 2:1.

I will have to give the rest of your post some thought before responding.

When he came to them in verse 1 they were lost. That is the set up for verse 14.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

And I, brethren - Keeping up the tender and affectionate style of address.

When I came unto you - When I came at first to preach the gospel at Corinth. Act 18:1ff.

 

[Don]

When he came to them in verse 1 they were lost. That is the set up for verse 14.

Don't think so. You specifically stated that verse 1 spoke of their condition; it does not. It is Paul speaking of his own preaching style, and why he preached that way. The 'set-up' for verse 14 actually occurs in the build-up from verses 6-13.

 

[Luke2427]

Don't think so. You specifically stated that verse 1 spoke of their condition; it does not. It is Paul speaking of his own preaching style, and why he preached that way. The 'set-up' for verse 14 actually occurs in the build-up from verses 6-13.

Were they already saved when Paul found them in your estimation?

 

[Luke2427]

Don't think so. You specifically stated that verse 1 spoke of their condition; it does not. It is Paul speaking of his own preaching style, and why he preached that way. The 'set-up' for verse 14 actually occurs in the build-up from verses 6-13.

Here are just a few commentaries:

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

But the natural man - Ψυχικος, The animal man - the man who is in a mere state of nature, and lives under the influence of his animal passions; for the word ψυχη, which we often translate soul, means the lower and sensitive part of man, in opposition to νους, the understanding or rational part. The Latins use anima to signify these lower passions; and animus to signify the higher. The person in question is not only one who either has had no spiritual teaching, or has not profited by it; but one who lives for the present world, having no respect to spiritual or eternal things. This ψυχικος, or animal man, is opposed to the πνευματικος, or spiritual man: and, as this latter is one who is under the influence of the Spirit of God, so the former is one who is without that influence.

The apostle did speak of those high and sublime spiritual things to these animal men; but he explained them to those which were spiritual. He uses this word in this sense, 1 Corinthians 3:1; 1 Corinthians 9:11; and particularly in 1 Corinthians 2:15 of the present chapter: He that is spiritual judgeth all things.

But the natural man - The apostle appears to give this - as a reason why he explained those deep spiritual things to spiritual men; because the animal man - the man who is in a state of nature, without the regenerating grace of the Spirit of God, receiveth not the things of the Spirit - neither apprehends nor comprehends them: he has no relish for them; he considers it the highest wisdom to live for this world. Therefore these spiritual things are foolishness to him; for while he is in his animal state he cannot see their excellency, because they are spiritually discerned, and he has no spiritual mind.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

But the natural man,.... Not a babe in Christ, one that is newly born again, for though such have but little knowledge of spiritual things, yet they have a taste, and do relish and desire, and receive the sincere milk of the word, and grow thereby; but an unregenerate man, that has no knowledge at all of such things;

Vincent's Word Studies

The natural man (ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος)

See on Romans 11:4, on the distinction between ψυχή soul, life, and πνεῦμα spirit. The contrast is between a man governed by the divine Spirit and one from whom that Spirit is absent. But ψυχικὸς natural, is not equivalent to σαρκικός fleshy. Paul is speaking of natural as contrasted with spiritual cognition applied to spiritual truth, and therefore of the ψυχή soul, as the organ of human cognition, contrasted with the πνεῦμα spirit, as the organ of spiritual cognition. The man, therefore, whose cognition of truth depends solely upon his natural insight is ψυχικός natural, as contrasted with the spiritual man (πνευματικός) to whom divine insight is imparted. In other words, the organ employed in the apprehension of spiritual truth characterizes the man. Paul therefore "characterizes the man who is not yet capable of understanding divine wisdom as ψυχικός, i.e., as one who possesses in his ψυχή soul, simply the organ of purely human cognition, but has not yet the organ of religious cognition in the πνεῦμα spirit" (Dickson).

Wesley's Notes

2:14 But the natural man - That is, every man who hath not the Spirit; who has no other way of obtaining knowledge, but by his senses and natural understanding. Receiveth not - Does not understand or conceive. The things of the Spirit - The things revealed by the Spirit of God, whether relating to his nature or his kingdom. For they are foolishness to him - He is so far from understanding, that he utterly despises, them Neither can he know them - As he has not the will, so neither has he the power. Because they are spiritually discerned - They can only be discerned by the aid of that Spirit, and by those spiritual senses, which he has not.

Scofield Reference Notes

[2] natural man

Paul divides men into three classes: psuchikos, "of the senses" Jas 3:15 Jude 1:19 or "natural," i.e. the Adamic man, unrenewed through the new birth Jn 3:3,5 pneumatikos, "spiritual," i.e. the renewed man as Spirit-filled and walking in the Spirit in full communion with God Eph 5:18-20 and sarkikos, "carnal," "fleshly," i.e. the renewed man who, walking "after the flesh," remains a babe in Christ 1Cor 3:1-4. The natural man may be learned, gentle, eloquent, fascinating, but the spiritual content of Scripture is absolutely hidden from him; and the fleshly, or carnal, Christian is able to comprehend only its simplest truths, "milk" 1Cor 3:2.

 

[Don]

Were they already saved when Paul found them in your estimation?

Doesn't matter what my estimation is or might be; your statement is that this verse talks about their condition. I contend that it does not.

Here are just a few commentaries:

And yet, none of those address your statement about 1 Cor 2:1, do they?

Did you, or did you not, specifically state that this verse spoke of their condition? Does it talk about their condition, or is it Paul talking about the way he preached to them?

 

[Luke2427]

Doesn't matter what my estimation is or might be; your statement is that this verse talks about their condition. I contend that it does not.


And yet, none of those address your statement about 1 Cor 2:1, do they?

Did you, or did you not, specifically state that this verse spoke of their condition? Does it talk about their condition, or is it Paul talking about the way he preached to them?

I don't think I said that but it does give the setting of the text. He is speaking about what went on in his ministry when he arrived at Corinth.

He was physically weak but spiritually powerful. thru verse 5

He imparted hidden wisdom in verse 6.

None of the rulers of this age understood it in verse 7.

They are revealed by the Spirit in verse 10.

No one can comprehend these things that Paul preached when he first came to Corinth, that the rulers of this world did not understand causing them to crucify Christ- no one can get them but by the Spirit of God in verse 11.

We have not received the Spirit of the world but of God so that we CAN get these spiritual things in verse 12.

Paul does not impart these things in human wisdom but spiritual wisdom in verse 13.

BUT the NATURAL man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God... NEITHER CAN HE.

Now, Don, I've given a half dozen commentaries both Calvinistic and Arminian, I've given the context,

It is not your turn to do some work to prove YOUR notion that verse 14 is talking about carnal Christians.

 

[Don]

I don't think I said that....

From the first post of Page 6 of this thread:

...Chapter two verse one speaks of their condition when he found them- they were lost, natural men.

-----

Now, Don, I've given a half dozen commentaries both Calvinistic and Arminian, I've given the context,

It is not your turn to do some work to prove YOUR notion that verse 14 is talking about carnal Christians.

From the bottom of Page 6 of this thread:

Okay, re-reading and re-thinking about my posts, I have miscommunicated. In attempting to show the link between chapter 2 and chapter 3, I muddied the intent of verse 2:14. Chapter 2 is a prelude to chapter 3; but Paul's intent was to show how the members of the church of Corinth are still acting like "natural" men (i.e., his identification of their carnal-ness).

 

[charles_creech78]

I think....... the unbeliever has to want what we have, shown by our lives. We are living epistles. A man is brought to repentance by the kindness of God. If we can show the unbeliever the love that only comes from God, it will draw them to God. If we pound out the summons message "If you don't join us, you are hell bound.", most will reject it as religious judgment. If you do get someone with that fear, then they are fear driven instead of love drawn. It is truth that believers are saved, and unbelievers are damned, but I don't think Christ intended it as a summons.:godisgood:

Amen: The goodness of God has lead me to repentance. I still feared going to hell before I was born again. I believe a fear has to set up in someone heart before they even want to do anything about there soul. I know a fear set up in my heart. I feared going to a devils hail. I feared what God would do to me. I was preach to that I had to be born again and that I had to lay my life down and to deny myself and that repentance is required at the hands of every man. I cried unto the Lord and felt this warmth in my soul and felt all my burden lift off of my chest. I felt this warmth in my soul when I ask Jesus to forgive me and with a eye of faith I seen my savior on the cross dieing for my transgressions . How wonderful of a God we have and how his glory and love has filled my life. I give him the glory and honor. Trust On God and he will hold you up and keep you forever. God bless.

 

[Luke2427]

Okay, re-reading and re-thinking about my posts, I have miscommunicated. In attempting to show the link between chapter 2 and chapter 3, I muddied the intent of verse 2:14. Chapter 2 is a prelude to chapter 3; but Paul's intent was to show how the members of the church of Corinth are still acting like "natural" men (i.e., his identification of their carnal-ness).

I did not see this.

Are you saying that you now see verse 14 as lost men or what? I am not clear.

It SEEMS that is what you are saying. Pardon my ignorance.

 

[Don]

I did not see this.

Are you saying that you now see verse 14 as lost men or what? I am not clear.

It SEEMS that is what you are saying. Pardon my ignorance.

As part of what Paul is telling the church of Corinth about how they're acting - yes. That's what I mean by the link between chapters 2 and 3.

Put another way, almost anecdotally: the unsaved man cannot understand; but you who are saved are acting like the unsaved, acting carnally, without understanding. Does that make sense?

 

[Luke2427]

As part of what Paul is telling the church of Corinth about how they're acting - yes. That's what I mean by the link between chapters 2 and 3.

Put another way, almost anecdotally: the unsaved man cannot understand; but you who are saved are acting like the unsaved, acting carnally, without understanding. Does that make sense?

Yep, and I think you are right that that is what Paul is saying in chapter three.

But in 2:14 he describes an unregenerate man. Are we on the same page on this now?

 

[Don]

Yep, and I think you are right that that is what Paul is saying in chapter three.

But in 2:14 he describes an unregenerate man. Are we on the same page on this now?

I believe we are.

 

[Luke2427]

I believe we are.

Perhaps we should call it a night on that note and talk about it further another time. We ought to revel is these rare occasions! :thumbs:

 

[Don]

Perhaps we should call it a night on that note and talk about it further another time. We ought to revel is these rare occasions! :thumbs:

Before we do - where do we stand on your statement regarding 1 Cor 2:1?

 

[Luke2427]

Before we do - where do we stand on your statement regarding 1 Cor 2:1?

I answered that in post 86

 

[Don]

I answered that in post 86

Kind sir, I refer you to post #87.

 

[Luke2427]

Kind sir, I refer you to post #87.

The clear understanding is that when he came to them they were not saved, hence the need to preach the Gospel to them in Spirit power.

Chapter two shows a contrast between those who receive such preaching and those who do not.

The unregenerate natural man does not.

That is the summation of chapter 2.

That the Corinthians were not saved when Paul "came" to them in verse one is manifest.

 

[Don]

The clear understanding is that when he came to them they were not saved, hence the need to preach the Gospel to them in Spirit power.

Chapter two shows a contrast between those who receive such preaching and those who do not.

The unregenerate natural man does not.

That is the summation of chapter 2.

That the Corinthians were not saved when Paul "came" to them in verse one is manifest.

The reason I'm holding onto this one is because you're injecting meaning into the verse that isn't there. Please refer back to the many commentaries that you've identified; the many that I've referenced throughout the day identify verses 1-5 as a description of Paul's preaching and as to why he preached in that style. None of them identify this verse, or verses 2-5, as an identification of regenerative or unregenerative state of being. Those descriptions and comments are reserved for the later verses.

Would it outright kill you to admit that you possibly mis-spoke (mis-wrote?) about this particular verse?

 

[Luke2427]

The reason I'm holding onto this one is because you're injecting meaning into the verse that isn't there. Please refer back to the many commentaries that you've identified; the many that I've referenced throughout the day identify verses 1-5 as a description of Paul's preaching and as to why he preached in that style. None of them identify this verse, or verses 2-5, as an identification of regenerative or unregenerative state of being. Those descriptions and comments are reserved for the later verses.

Would it outright kill you to admit that you possibly mis-spoke (mis-wrote?) about this particular verse?

If that will get you to move on I will gladly say that even if it isn't so.

It IS speaking about Paul's preaching but he is preaching to people who are lost.

Now that is it. I ahve made it clear.

No commentary you have found says this because it is so plain.

That he is speaking of lost people in chapter two is abundantly clear.

I did not misspeak.

But if you will move on to something else I will consider LYING and letting you have your way.:BangHead:

 

[Don]

If that will get you to move on I will gladly say that even if it isn't so.

It IS speaking about Paul's preaching but he is preaching to people who are lost.

Now that is it. I ahve made it clear.

No commentary you have found says this because it is so plain.

That he is speaking of lost people in chapter two is abundantly clear.

I did not misspeak.

But if you will move on to something else I will consider LYING and letting you have your way.:BangHead:

I'm not asking you to lie; I'm not asking for anyone to "let me have my way."

You clearly stated that the verse speaks of their condition when he found them; the verse does not speak of this. It speaks of Paul preaching without excellency of speech, or wisdom.

The chapter, without question, speaks of lost people; there is no argument. The only correction I'm asking of you is your mis-statement regarding verse 1.

If you can't admit this, then you are already lying -- to yourself. Further, you damage your own testimony by not admitting that you simply mis-spoke regarding one verse out of over 31,000 in the Bible.

If you can provide a commentary for 1 Cor 2:1-5 that indicates these verses are speaking of lost people, which would then substantiate your claim that verse 1 speaks of the condition of the sinner, then--just as I have done before--I will gladly recant and admit my error.

(reminder: the commentaries you've presented previously are focused around verse 14. You need to provide commentary references specifically focused on verse 1)

If you can't, then simply say you can't and let's move on. I don't need you to start a thread with the title "Luke was wrong," or use some super-sized font; just looking for you to admit that you're human, and once in a while, while not actually making a mistake, you might possibly mis-step. Just like the rest of us.

I believe it's already well past 10:00pm your time; I don't expect a response, whatever it may be, until tomorrow. Good night.