Why do we do this?

[webdog]

1 John 1:9 is written to the already saved. A group of believers. You misapply it here.

Did you just disagree with him? How dare you insult him like that...you must hate him!

(JUST KIDDING)

 

[kyredneck]

....I have never heard the phrase "repeat after me" said in the church I attend.

Thank God. The Old Baptists have never resorted to such tactics. :thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

There is nothing wrong with calling on Jesus to save you. The scriptures say "For whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

Now what kind of prayer is this? If a person prays to Jesus so that they win the lottery tonight, is that the kind of prayer Paul is speaking about? I seriously doubt it. No, I think Paul was speaking of a sinner crying out to Jesus to save them.

I prayed and asked Jesus to come into my heart and save me, and it was the greatest event in my life.

Prayer is not a work, it is evidence of faith.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Thank God. The Old Baptists have never resorted to such tactics. :thumbsup:

If they did I'd have to find some where else to hang my hat.

 

[preacher4truth]

There is nothing wrong with calling on Jesus to save you. The scriptures say "For whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

Now what kind of prayer is this? If a person prays to Jesus so that they win the lottery tonight, is that the kind of prayer Paul is speaking about? I seriously doubt it. No, I think Paul was speaking of a sinner crying out to Jesus to save them.

I prayed and asked Jesus to come into my heart and save me, and it was the greatest event in my life.

Prayer is not a work, it is evidence of faith.

You're right, there is nothing wrong with calling on Jesus to save us.

BTW, It's actually "shall call upon" not "will call upon" if you are referring to KJV, or is it another version you quote?

A simple word study reveals a deeper, more intended meaning. Moreso than a sinners prayer model man wrote for others to recite.

Why assume it means prayer? It's not that "simple" and isn't speaking of prayer or praying. It falls closer to "to name him Lord" or, to "title Him as Lord" than to "call upon" as "call upon" misses the true and entire meaning. And it need not be done in a prayer found on a tract, it can be simply stated, praying it isn't a magic formula. It's not even about asking the Lord in your heart. No where is this found in Scripture as a method for being saved, though many still do this. Again, this isn't a reference to praying a prayer, or the sinners prayer, but rather naming Him as Lord. Joel 2:32 is where this text is taken, and here in Joel it is akin to "accosting, or laying claim to a person" rather than praying in general for it, or praying the/a sinners prayer.


There are many people who have prayed the sinners prayer, but haven't truly laid ahold of the name, nor truly claimed Him as Savior out of a genuinely convicted soul, seeing Him as who He is, and themselves as how He sees them, lost and in dire need.

Addressing the fact that saying a prayer doesn't save is the intention of this poll/thread. Many people have been led along in a prayer and have never been converted.

You can see it's true intended meaning when you look at the big picture.

:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

If you don't want to pray, then don't pray, I don't care what you choose to do. But don't lecture me and explain to me how or what to pray.

The sinner's prayer is clearly
shown in scripture when the publican would not lift his eyes, but smote his breast and said, "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Jesus said this man went down to his house justified, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me pose some questions, some rhetorical.

If Philip told the eunuch he'd baptize him if he believed with all his heart.
The eunuch told Philip he believed Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Philip baptized him.

Paul told the Philippian jailer to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved.

Paul told the Mars Hill philosophers to repent, and some believed.

The questions:

If repentance and faith saves, why do we want to embellish that?

Why would we add a prayer when all that is necessary is for us to repent and believe?

Surely, there's no one here who would say that salvation comes when you "say these magic words" Yet, when we tell the sinner to pray the Sinner's prayer, or "pray something like this," isn't that exactly what we're doing?

Why would we add such tender terms as "ask Jesus to come into your heart," or "let Jesus come into your life?."

Why would we ever embrace any addition to the gospel that describes "getting saved" as "walking the aisle?"

Why would we ever suggest to anyone that the front (where the preacher is) is where you go down to be saved, as in "come to Christ?"

If you use the Sinner's Prayer as a soul-winning tool, have you ever told someone that if they want to be saved, to ask God--then shut up and waited silently?

Are not some of these "methods" and terminology actually subtle ways of manipulating people into a "decision?"

Maybe we ought to ask three of the deacons in my church why they all came to the conclusion they had never been saved when they were kids. What "gospel" did they respond to that didn't point them to Christ?

This is serious business folks. We believers do not want to blow an uncertain trumpet. I fear that we are blowing an uncertain trumpet when out of 16-million Southern Baptists, only about six million show up for church on any Sunday. What is the gospel they are hearing, responding to, then deserting?

 

[Tom Butler]

If you don't want to pray, then don't pray, I don't care what you choose to do. But don't lecture me and explain to me how or what to pray.

The sinner's prayer is clearly
shown in scripture when the publican would not lift his eyes, but smote his breast and said, "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Jesus said this man went down to his house justified, and that's good enough for me.

I have said repeatedly that God will save one who cries out to him for mercy in repentance and faith. My problem with the Sinner's Prayer is not so much its use, but it's abuse and misuse.

 

[Winman]

You are assuming that those folks who aren't coming to church aren't saved. Anyone who sincerely believes Jesus died for them and rose, and asks Jesus to save them is truly saved whether they come to church or not.

And we have a picture of this in scripture. When Jesus healed the ten lepers, how many returned to thank him? Only one. But were the other nine truly healed? Yes.
You have to distinguish between those who are saved and those that become disciples. Many get saved, but only a few become disciples.

And while we do not see many examples of people praying for salvation, do we see many examples of people coming to him and asking for healing? Yes, very many.

Jesus also said, Ask, and ye shall receive, Seek, and ye shall find, Knock and it shall be opened.

What do the first letters of ask, seek, and knock spell?

ASK

Isn't that amazing? I wonder if that works in the Greek?

 

[Old Union Brother]

Tom, I don’t know if this answers your questions or not (I kind of think it does). This is my story of salvation that God lead me through.

At about the age of 12 years old, I heard the call of God and rejected his call. I wandered in sin for 11 years, always hearing that call but rejecting it. When I was 23 years old God called to me like never before and a fear set up in me that I can't describe. I felt as if a mountain had fallen on my shoulders I feel it was a mountain of sin. This mountain brought me to my knees, begging to be delivered from the sad state that I was in. He showed what a sorry individual I was blind, deaf and lame. When God showed me all of these things, I had to repent with a Godly sorrow; I had to travel through a trail of tears, begging to be delivered from the sinful state I was in. I worked myself out of works, begging with everything in me to be delivered. God let me realize that my works were as filthy rags in His sight. When I came to the end of my strength giving up my pride, God worked a work in me that no mortal man could work. He anointed my eyes so that I could see his work. He touched my ears so that I could hear His marvelous word. He touched my lameness and let me walk in his wondrous light. But most of all he resurrected me to a lively Hope in him. Praise be to God for his loving Grace that made me whole and set me free through the precious blood of the Christ. I thank him daily for the gift of life that he gave me through his beautiful Son. No preacher had to say repeat after me, No preacher had to say to me pray the sinner’s prayer. No man manipulated me into saying anything. God taught me how to pray. After God worked the work. I definitely had something to tell the church.

God draws, God teaches how we should pray, and most of all God Saves.

 

[preacher4truth]

If you don't want to pray, then don't pray, I don't care what you choose to do. But don't lecture me and explain to me how or what to pray.

The sinner's prayer is clearly
shown in scripture when the publican would not lift his eyes, but smote his breast and said, "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Jesus said this man went down to his house justified, and that's good enough for me.

Although your first sentence is unnecessary and carries an unchristian tone and objective, I'm not going to be dragged into this with you in that way. I'm sure you can live above that as your profession should prove.

As to your publican illustration, no man, leading through a sinners prayer, as is good enough for you, can lead a person to the point the publican is. The sinners prayers is a tactic. Maybe it's good enough for you, but I believe many on here have seen its misuse and instead seek genuine conversions, wherein only God Himself can bring a person. Only God can bring a person to accost and name the name of Christ for salvation, being drawn by Him and not through some chick-tract-esque prayer model, or reciting one after the manner of the publican. As Tom Butler says, it is not about asking Jesus into your heart, and his post begs to ask in a sense where we've come up with this. There is no Biblical support for this, although we kind of get what you're trying to say. Since we are wanting to be Biblical, some of us see where this presumed "ask into heart" is not Scripturally based. It's a sacred cow, and isn't some magic formula. If you can't see the point then just leave the issue alone.

 

[Winman]

No biblical support? The Lord himself tells us of a man clearly convicted of his sinfulness, a man who knew his only hope was to cast himself on God's mercy, and when he did his sins were forgiven and he was justified, and you tell me there is no biblical support!

And notice how easy it was.

I get a kick out of folks who call simply trusting Christ as this man did easy believeism. If it is so easy, then why can't they do it?

 

[Tom Butler]

You are assuming that those folks who aren't coming to church aren't saved. Anyone who sincerely believes Jesus died for them and rose, and asks Jesus to save them is truly saved whether they come to church or not.

Well, you're right, I shouldn't assume. But I do wonder about it.

Let me assume something about you, though, for purposes of discussion.

You are a devoted believer, active in your church, have a thirst for the Word of God, a love for the brethren and a desire to fellowship with them. I'll bet you share your faith when the Holy Spirit opens the way.

A fellow church member of yours hasn't shown up in two years. He's a decent guy, but shows no interest in any of those spiritual things that you have an interest in.

In other words, if he were on trial for being a Christian, there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict him.

Now, what is the difference between you and him? Did your church disciple each of you differently? Did it fail to follow up, visit, call, write when he started missing?

I don't know the answer to the questions I've asked. But I would hesitate to reassure your fellow church member regarding his salvation, wouldn't you?

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, I don’t know if this answers your questions or not (I kind of think it does). This is my story of salvation that God lead me through.

At about the age of 12 years old, I heard the call of God and rejected his call. I wandered in sin for 11 years, always hearing that call but rejecting it. When I was 23 years old God called to me like never before and a fear set up in me that I can't describe. I felt as if a mountain had fallen on my shoulders I feel it was a mountain of sin. This mountain brought me to my knees, begging to be delivered from the sad state that I was in. He showed what a sorry individual I was blind, deaf and lame. When God showed me all of these things, I had to repent with a Godly sorrow; I had to travel through a trail of tears, begging to be delivered from the sinful state I was in. I worked myself out of works, begging with everything in me to be delivered. God let me realize that my works were as filthy rags in His sight. When I came to the end of my strength giving up my pride, God worked a work in me that no mortal man could work. He anointed my eyes so that I could see his work. He touched my ears so that I could hear His marvelous word. He touched my lameness and let me walk in his wondrous light. But most of all he resurrected me to a lively Hope in him. Praise be to God for his loving Grace that made me whole and set me free through the precious blood of the Christ. I thank him daily for the gift of life that he gave me through his beautiful Son. No preacher had to say repeat after me, No preacher had to say to me pray the sinner’s prayer. No man manipulated me into saying anything. God taught me how to pray. After God worked the work. I definitely had something to tell the church.

God draws, God teaches how we should pray, and most of all God Saves.

Thanks for a wonderful God-honoring confession of faith.

Salvation is all of God and none of us. Even the repentance and faith we exercise are given to us. God plan of salvation includes the means to accomplish it--The preaching of the word, the convicting, illuminating, regenerating, the granting of repentance and faith. Now that's salvation by grace.

 

[MB]

You're right, there is nothing wrong with calling on Jesus to save us.

Right what I don't understand why question something you also believe then.

BTW, It's actually "shall call upon" not "will call upon" if you are referring to KJV, or is it another version you quote?

A simple word study reveals a deeper, more intended meaning. Moreso than a sinners prayer model man wrote for others to recite.

First you agree with it, then judge it to be of man alone. Simply sinners don't usually know how to pray then you complain that the preacher has shown or told him how and what he should say. Should we assume you believe they themselves should know when they have never prayed before?

Why assume it means prayer?

You're not saying there is another way we can call on the Lord are you? We can't use the phone to talk with Him. How else can we call on the Lord?

It's not that "simple" and isn't speaking of prayer or praying. It falls closer to "to name him Lord" or, to "title Him as Lord" than to "call upon" as "call upon" misses the true and entire meaning.

Absolutely not true. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
The scriptures aren't saying that at all. Seems this is just another attempt to discredit what God's word actually says. All this just to prop up your false doctrine of forced Salvation.

And it need not be done in a prayer found on a tract, it can be simply stated, praying it isn't a magic formula. It's not even about asking the Lord in your heart. No where is this found in Scripture as a method for being saved, though many still do this. Again, this isn't a reference to praying a prayer, or the sinners prayer, but rather naming Him as Lord. Joel 2:32 is where this text is taken, and here in Joel it is akin to "accosting, or laying claim to a person" rather than praying in general for it, or praying the/a sinners prayer.

I beg your pardon; Here again you prove you don't have the biblical knowledge you seem to think you have.

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened
Your not saying Christ lied when He said these words are you?

There are many people who have prayed the sinners prayer, but haven't truly laid ahold of the name, nor truly claimed Him as Savior out of a genuinely convicted soul, seeing Him as who He is, and themselves as how He sees them, lost and in dire need.

There may be but one thing for sure you don't know if you just stated a lie or not because you can't see there hearts. Not to mention we simply don't know. God is the author and finisher of our faith. No two Christians grow at the same rate. Some are never winged from the milk.

Addressing the fact that saying a prayer doesn't save is the intention of this poll/thread. Many people have been led along in a prayer and have never been converted.

You can see it's true intended meaning when you look at the big picture.

:thumbs:

God does the saving no doubt there. However do you really think that if the man ask God to save Him that God wouldn't do it.
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

The publican's prayer was, as we know, "God be merciful to me, a sinner."

Jesus declared him to be justified, on the basis of this prayer.

If I suggest to a lost one that he should ask God for mercy, will those words be enough?

 

[preacher4truth]

The publican's prayer was, as we know, "God be merciful to me, a sinner."

Jesus declared him to be justified, on the basis of this prayer.

If I suggest to a lost one that he should ask God for mercy, will those words be enough?

I've known many people to ask for forgiveness of sin, but had not known nor had they trusted God as Savior. I believe the Saviors point here is to know we are sinners, versus thinking we are righteous. That is the point here, a contrasting of two, not an example of being born again or a prayer to pray, as that is mere religion. Could we use this to show a person how it is they are to be when before God at salvation? Absolutely. But shouldn't said person be there prior to us having to show them "you should feel convicted and want to beg for mercy?" Does praying this prayer save one? Not necessarily. This prayer would only be efficacious if the one were laying hold upon the Name for salvation, coming to Him to be saved from sin.

My point in this OP is that we cannot lead a person through a prayer and expect that to be in itself efficacious.

Sinners prayers are misused, and many have led a person through one, given testimony thereof themselves, and the result of such was only that they prayed a prayer as some magic formula. I've even heard some that have prayed this prayer say they don't believe the Gospel! The prayer was a tactic, although the intentions of the soul winner may be good, the soul winner lacks some knowledge here:

The person must be being drawn to Christ for salvation.

This prayer must be one out of such a heart of conviction and drawing, but does not necessarily have to be prayer, it is rather in Scripture an outward expression of faith, not a "pray this prayer." Look at Pentecost, there was no sinners prayer at all, instead, they were convicted, received the word, were baptized, and continued in devotion to God afterwards. Acts 2:37-42.

There is no Scriptures about repeating or reciting, nor of asking Christ to come into ones heart.

Asking a person if they would like to go to heaven and to tell them then pray this prayer for assurance is nonsensical without other factors being present.

The plain fact is we are to preach the death, burial and Resurrection, and some will be saved.

Some have prayed at salvation, some have not. Both have been saved.

The whole point is, the sinners prayer can't save a soul, God and God alone must bring the person to that point. Our leading them in a prayer does nothing.

As I said, I had to rethink this whole thing just a short time after being saved, about our methods, and misleading people through a sinners prayer. It is simple. but it is complex: God does many complex things only he can do in the heart, we simply accept said persons for their testimony from their lips that they believe and have been converted.

 

[Tom Butler]

preacher4truth, thanks for your thoughts. The publican's prayer is cited as a proof-text for the use of the Sinner's Prayer, and that's why I asked the question if those words were enough.

But I still have some questions. Jesus knew the man's heart and declared him to be justified. What did Jesus know that we don't know? The prayer was directly to God without reference to the Savior. He did express repentance in a way, but he didn't express faith in the Christ. Was the publican trusting in the Messiah to come, not knowing his name was Jesus?

I guess the point I'm making is that if the publican's prayer is our justification for the Sinner's Prayer, why do we modify it and add to it? It was enough for Jesus.

I'm obviously missing something here. Anybody want to help me find it?

 

[preacher4truth]

preacher4truth, thanks for your thoughts. The publican's prayer is cited as a proof-text for the use of the Sinner's Prayer, and that's why I asked the question if those words were enough.

But I still have some questions. Jesus knew the man's heart and declared him to be justified. What did Jesus know that we don't know? The prayer was directly to God without reference to the Savior. He did express repentance in a way, but he didn't express faith in the Christ. Was the publican trusting in the Messiah to come, not knowing his name was Jesus?

I guess the point I'm making is that if the publican's prayer is our justification for the Sinner's Prayer, why do we modify it and add to it? It was enough for Jesus.

I'm obviously missing something here. Anybody want to help me find it?

I think the simple truth in this is, as I say, a contrast between those who know they are sinners, and those who think they are righteous. No one can be justified if they don't know that such are sinners, and need His mercy, and grace. I won't make it say what it doesn't say.

 

[Amy.G]

But I still have some questions. Jesus knew the man's heart and declared him to be justified. What did Jesus know that we don't know? The prayer was directly to God without reference to the Savior. He did express repentance in a way, but he didn't express faith in the Christ. Was the publican trusting in the Messiah to come, not knowing his name was Jesus?

I guess the point I'm making is that if the publican's prayer is our justification for the Sinner's Prayer, why do we modify it and add to it? It was enough for Jesus.

I'm obviously missing something here. Anybody want to help me find it?

Prayer is simply communication between one person and God. It's not a set of "words". God knows the heart and the intent of the heart. We get hung up on words.
If Jesus said the man was justified, then he was justified. God knew his heart.