The theology of hell

[BobinKy]

Here is a short word study.

"GEHENNA, HELL, geenna (gheh-en-nah). This noun is the Greek representation of the Hebrew words for 'Valley of the Sons of Hinnom' (see 2 Chr. 28:3), the name for a ravine south of Jerusalem--the site, according to popular belief, of the Last Judgment. In the first three Gospels, geenna is apparently thought of as the site of eternal punishment or condemnation in the afterlife (Matt. 5:29; Luke 12:5), sometimes depicted as a place of fire (Matt. 18:9; Mark 9:45, 45), called 'hell.' The word is also used figuratively to describe the unruly and evil tongue (James 3:6). (Strong's #1067)." (Nelson's Biblical Cyclopedic Index, 2010, p. 195).

Reference
Nelson's Biblical Cyclopedic Index. 2010. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

...Bob

Here is a longer word study.

I hope this helps.

...Bob

"Hell, Abyss, Hades, Gehenna, Lower Regions.
In speaking about the ultimate fate of the dead the Bible makes use of a variety of concepts. In some cases they are simply taken over under outside religious influence, but in others there has been a subsequent characteristic transformation. There is no unified picture of an unambiguously formulated doctrine, and the power of death must also be seen in the light of the victory of the cross. hades is the temporary abode of the dead, to which they are banished. It is not clear whether the rare term katoteros stands for the depths of the human world, threatened by death, or the depths of the realm of the dead itself. Judaism is the source of the two terms abyssos and gehenna. abyssos means a particular place of terror which constitutes a refuge for demons; gehenna is the eschatological fiery hell to which the ungodly will be eternally condemned at the last judgment." (Bietenhard, 1986, p. 205)


"abyssos, abyss, pit, underworld." (Bietenard, 1986, p. 205).

[Did not record article for this post.]


"hades, Hades, the underworld, the realm of the dead." (Bietenard, 1986, p. 206-208).

[Did not record article for this post.]


"gehenna, Gehenna hell."

OT The word gehenna does not appear in the LXX or Gk. literature. It is the Gk. form of the Aram. gehinnam, which in turn goes back to the Heb. ge hinnom. This originally denoted a valley lying to the south of Jerusalem (today, Wadi er-Rababi), the valley of the son (or sons) of Hinnom (Jos. 15:8; 18:16; Isa. 31:9; 66:24; Jer. 32:35; 2 Chr. 33:6). (See L. H. Grollenberg, Atlas of the Bible, 1957, 96, 114f., 152.) Child sacrifices were offered in this valley (2 Ki. 16:3; 21:6). Josiah had it desecrated (2 Ki. 23:10). According to Jer. 7:32; 19:6f., it will be the place of God's judgment.

Jewish apocalyptic assumed that this valley would become, after the final judgment, the hell of fire (Eth.Enoch 90:26 f.; 27:1 ff.; 54:1 ff.; 56:3 f.). Hence the name gehenna came to be applied to the eschatological hell of fire in general, even when it was no longer localized at Jerusalem (e.g. 2 Esd. 7:36; Syr.Bar. 59:10; 85:13, Sib. 1:103). In time gehenna became simply the place of punishment and so attracted the corresponding ideas about Hades. gehenna thus became a temporary place of punishment (until the final judgment). At about the end of the 1st cent. A.D. or the beginning of the 2nd the doctrine of a fiery purgatory arose among the Rabbis. All those in whose cases merit and guilt are equally balanced go to gehenna. There they are purified and, if they do penance, inherit paradise. Alongside this we find the concept of an eschatological Gehinnom judgment, limited in time, after the last judgment (SB IV 1022-1118).

NT For the NT gehenna was a pre-existent entity (Matt. 25:41), a fiery abyss (Matt. 13: 42, 50). It was the place of eschatological punishment after the last judgment, punishment of eternal duration (Matt. 25:41, 46; 23:15, 33). Body and soul are judged in it (Mk 9:43, 45, 47 f.; Matt. 10:28). It was also to be distinguished from Hades which houses the souls of the dead before the last judgment. The same punishment will overtake Satan and the demons, the beast from the abyss, the false prophet, death and Hades (Matt. 25:41; 8:29; Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14f.). In contrast with later Christian writings and ideas, the torments of hell are not described in the NT, 'If they are mentioned, it is only to rouse consciences to fear the wrath of the heavenly Judge' (J. Jeremias, TDNT I 658; cf. Matt. 10:28; Lk. 12:5). Neither does the NT contain the idea that Satan is the prince of gehenna, to whom sinners are handed over for punishment." (Bietenhard, 1986, p. 208-209)​

Reference
Bietenhard, H. (1986). Vol. 2 in Brown, C. (gen. ed.) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology. [Trans., with additions and revisions, from the German Theologisches Begriffslexikon Zum Neuen Testament, 1971.]. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

...Bob

 

[Steadfast Fred]

A good illustration of Hades and Gehenna would be a jail and a penitentiary.

Hades is the local jail. A place where the criminal/guilty is kept until the stand before the Judge/God to be tried and sentenced. Upon sentencing, the criminal/guilty is sent to the final penitentiary/ Geenna/lake of fire and brimstone where he or she will spend eternity in torments

 

[Baptist Believer]

A good illustration of Hades and Gehenna would be a jail and a penitentiary.

Hades is the local jail. A place where the criminal/guilty is kept until the stand before the Judge/God to be tried and sentenced. Upon sentencing, the criminal/guilty is sent to the final penitentiary/ Geenna/lake of fire and brimstone where he or she will spend eternity in torments

The scripture takes pains to point out that the Lake of Fire is the second death. That seems to be a major difference. It's a very strong argument for annihilation of the wicked.

Why shouldn't we see the second death as annihilation?

(Yes, I know about the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched, but that says nothing about those actually cast into the Lake of Fire.)

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The scripture takes pains to point out that the Lake of Fire is the second death. That seems to be a major difference. It's a very strong argument for annihilation of the wicked.

Why shouldn't we see the second death as annihilation?

(Yes, I know about the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched, but that says nothing about those actually cast into the Lake of Fire.)

Because death is not annihilation... it is separation. In the Old Testament, we read of a child that died and Elisha prayed that the child live again. The Word of God says that the child's soul came into him again.

At death, there is not a ceasing of existence. The body is still there. But the soul separates from the body.

In the lake of fire, it is not the body that dies... it is the soul. The soul that sinneth, it will die. But, just as the body was separated from the soul at death, the soul will be separated from God for all eternity in the second death.

Notice in Revelation when the false prophet is cast into the lake of fire. Yet a thousand years later, when the devil is cast in, the false prophet is still there. He has not been annihilated, he is still suffering the torments of the lake of fire a thousand years after he is cast in.

The Word of God tells us the punishment of the wicked will be everlasting. I have to believe the Word of God. There will be no end to the torments that those in the lake of fire will feel.

 

[percho]

Luke 16:23-26 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

I think this is one of the passages where we get the teaching of Paradise/Abraham's bosom.

At any rate, the rich man is in flames and being tormented without remedy. (hell)

But why would we equate Abraham's bosom here with paradise. The word says the tree of life is in the mist of the paradise of God. Anything about a tree in this passage? This whole passage is being told by Jesus because the Jews of his day thought they were a shoo-in for the kingdom of God because of there relationship to Abraham, thus father Abraham. Lazarus was Abraham's servant and was from Damascus and Jesus is once again telling them he the servant will be in the kingdom and they won't. Paul tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in the resurrection chapter of the word of God these have died we have been told therefore this at the time of the resurrection this conversation between the rich man and father Abraham is taking place. Resurrection to life for some and resurrection to damnation for others. If it's not at the resurrection then you have disembodied souls or spirits or something talking as if they have body parts which they would not need. These are not people that have died and gone somewhere and are talking to each other the day after they got there. His five brothers, by the way Judah the father of the Jews had five full brothers, would not listen to Moses and the prophets and they would not hear one risen from the dead. This was a prophesy for they did not listen after Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[percho]

I Do not know how long the soul was gone from the child that Elijah asked God to restore but I know the soul was gone from Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha for four days.

Do you think the soul of Lazarus had knowledge that Jesus was on the way to Bethany to restore him? Do you think he made any new soul friends in that short span of time? Do you think he had knowledge that Martha said he stinketh? Or as Paul and Jesus said was his soul just asleep. Or was that his body asleep and beginning to stink?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I Do not know how long the soul was gone from the child that Elijah asked God to restore but I know the soul was gone from Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha for four days.

Do you think the soul of Lazarus had knowledge that Jesus was on the way to Bethany to restore him? Do you think he made any new soul friends in that short span of time? Do you think he had knowledge that Martha said he stinketh? Or as Paul and Jesus said was his soul just asleep. Or was that his body asleep and beginning to stink?

It was Lazarus' body that was 'asleep.' The soul continues in a conscious state. We know this because of the story of the other 'Lazarus' mentioned in the book of Luke. The rich man was conscious of the flames and the pain he suffered. He was conscious of many things. His body was in the grave, (the rich man died also and was buried) but his soul was in hell. (and in hell he lifted up his eyes being in torments)

 

[convicted1]

It's hot. :smilewinkgrin:

You know, Sister Amy, the local weather man stated there was a 20% chance of snow in hell. It has been snowing everywhere else, why not there....LOL. Now back to your local TV station showing "Crapper John, M.D."

Willis

 

[menageriekeeper]

Good discussion!

Kyredneck, I never put together the Duet passage with the one in Rev.

Still my main question hasn't been answered (or maybe in some ways it sorta has, but not in the detail I'd like): When/how did the consequence of "death" as spoken of in Genisis turn into the concept of hell as taught by Christ in the NT?

 

[kyredneck]

Kyredneck, I never put together the Duet passage with the one in Rev....

OUB quoted from The Song Of Moses [Dt 32] in post #4.

The Song Of Moses had only one purpose: “ this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel....... when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness”.

The Song Of Moses is being sang in heaven in Rev 15:3.

 

[pinoybaptist]

You know, Sister Amy, the local weather man stated there was a 20% chance of snow in hell. It has been snowing everywhere else, why not there....LOL. Now back to your local TV station showing "Crapper John, M.D."

Willis

Brother Willis: I like the image. Can i copy and use it, please ? pretty, pretty please ?
PB

 

[kyredneck]

Brother Willis: I like the image. Can i copy and use it, please ? pretty, pretty please ?
PB

......well, you know what they say....

Some people can just look at an outhouse and know that it stinks.

Others have to open the door and take a big whiff to know that it stinks.

Some have to fall down into the hole and wallow around in it for a while before they know that it stinks.

 

[pinoybaptist]

......well, you know what they say....

Some people can just look at an outhouse and know that it stinks.

Others have to open the door and take a big whiff to know that it stinks.

Some have to fall down into the hole and wallow around in it for a while before they know that it stinks.

true....true....all so true...
but I like the attitude...
the singing, the songs, the notes....
i haven't sung in the john for a long time.....

 

[kyredneck]

...but I like the attitude...
the singing, the songs, the notes.........

Yea, I do too.

 

[percho]

It was Lazarus' body that was 'asleep.' The soul continues in a conscious state. We know this because of the story of the other 'Lazarus' mentioned in the book of Luke. The rich man was conscious of the flames and the pain he suffered. He was conscious of many things. His body was in the grave, (the rich man died also and was buried) but his soul was in hell. (and in hell he lifted up his eyes being in torments)

I guess these eyes were sitting in the eye sockets and were connected to the optic nerve which ran to the brain ect?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Because death is not annihilation... it is separation.

Thank you for your response. Over the past few years in the course of my regular Bible study, I keep running into passages that point toward eventual annihilation of the wicked instead of eternal torment. I honestly have no personal qualms about the idea of eternal punishment, so I don’t think I’m trying to find something that doesn’t exist in scripture to make myself feel better. However, I’m not completely comfortable with the annihilationist viewpoint either since the mainstream of Christendom has rejected that point-of-view for most of the last 2000 years.

I’m trying to learn here, not win an argument, so I want to go through your explanation carefully:

Death certainly is separation, but there seems to be more to it than that…

In the Old Testament, we read of a child that died and Elisha prayed that the child live again. The Word of God says that the child's soul came into him again.

Actually, the scripture says that the boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes. (2 Kings 2 4:25) It doesn’t give any sort of theological explanation of the boy being raised. However, as you said, it seems the boy’s consciousness (spirit/soul) was disconnected from his physical body.

At death, there is not a ceasing of existence. The body is still there. But the soul separates from the body.

To a point, I agree. But at physical death, the body starts to disintegrate almost immediately, and only careful preservation techniques will allow the body to be kept in a state similar in appearance to a living body. However, these embalming techniques change the nature of the physical body, so that the body will no longer be able to be resuscitated, beyond the intervention of God.

Left alone, the body eventually returns to dust (elemental things) and is no longer organized into anything we could call a body. For all intents and purposes, it no longer exists (annihilated).

In the lake of fire, it is not the body that dies... it is the soul.

Yes. Scripture is clear that this is the second death. (Apparently the death of the physical body is the first death.)

The soul that sinneth, it will die. But, just as the body was separated from the soul at death, the soul will be separated from God for all eternity in the second death.

(1) As I noted above, when the body and soul/spirit are separated, the body immediately begins a rapid process of decomposition in which the eventual result is annihilation (the body no longer exists in any form we could call a “body”).
(2) God’s life sustains our consciousness (soul/spirit) to exist (as Paul said, “…in Him we live and move and have our being…”), so separation from God for all eternity would seem to indicate that the soul/spirit would deteriorate into something that could not longer be considered a “soul” or “spirit.” It would truly be a second death.

However, the whole analogy could be flawed, since we don’t know the exact nature of soul/spirit. In the Western world, we have tended to get our presuppositions regarding the soul from Greek philosophy more than scripture (for instance, the idea that the soul is eternal).

Notice in Revelation when the false prophet is cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:20 for those following the discussion.

Yet a thousand years later, when the devil is cast in, the false prophet is still there.

Revelation 20:7, 10.

He has not been annihilated, he is still suffering the torments of the lake of fire a thousand years after he is cast in.

That’s a very interesting point. I need to think about this one for a while.

My understand of Revelation sees many of the numbers (such as 1000) as symbolic numbers, however, I try not to let my current understanding of scripture undermine what might be a more accurate understanding.

I appreciate your input. This has been thought-provoking. :thumbsup:

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Hi Baptist Believer,

I meant Elijah, but accidentally put Elisha. Here is the verse I had in mind:

1 Kings 17:21-22 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.


The body is not annihilated, it still exists (albeit in dust form) We must remember, one day all that are in the grave will hear God's voice and will rise. The dust will reassemble and those who were wicked will stand upon their feet and be judged by God almighty. Annihilated implies complete cessation of existence. Scripture reveals annihilation cannot be.

We know the soul is very much conscious when we read the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was aware of the torments he was in.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I guess these eyes were sitting in the eye sockets and were connected to the optic nerve which ran to the brain ect?

Scripture is silent on exactly how the rich man was able to see. But it clearly says he could see.

There are problems one will have to face when one states that hell is nothing more than the grave.

1. The rich man had to lift his eyes in order to see Abraham. This reveals that he could not have been laying down as a body does in a casket. His eyes would already be looking up otherwise.

2. The rich man said there were flames in hell. I have gone to many gravesites and not once seen a fire in them.

It is clear that the soul separates from the body at death. 1 Kings 17 shows us this, as does the story of Benoni's (Benjamin's) birth. His mother's soul was departing in her death.

The body goes to the grave, the soul goes to heaven or hell depending on whether the person was saved or not.

 

[percho]

Someone needs to show me where death is separation from God.

If eternal life is the gift from God then death is the opposite of that life.

There is physical life and there is eternal life. In between this stands death. When death comes to Adam first or second BTW he is dead unless God regenerates him. God can regenerate him to physical life again which we have stated cases of in the word of God of he can regenerate him to eternal life of which he have one case in the word of God and that is the second Adam, Jesus the Christ resurrected a quickening spirit. It is stated in John 5:21 that it is the Father that raises up the dead, and quickens. Also in John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
When did he give the son this life? Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Speaking of this same Jesus at this same point of time Hebrews 5:5 today he therefore on that day, verse 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
You say that he was already perfect, he was God.

The word of God says the Word was made flesh, that is flesh and blood which cannot inherit the kingdom of God. He had to be changed. The word says, for the purpose of death, death forever if God the Father does not give him life again. He was made to be sin for us. For a little over three days and three nights he was forsaken by God. By raising Jesus from the dead he made the second Adam a quickening spirit. Since his resurrection see the rest of John 5:21 even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. How does he do this. By the word of God promised to Abraham and his one seed Christ Gal.3
He puts the seed of God that he received from the father in us Acts 2:33 and Titus 3:5,6 by which we will be raised from the dead Rom. 8:11 in his risen from the dead image Rom. 8:29.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[BobinKy]

. . . Still my main question hasn't been answered (or maybe in some ways it sorta has, but not in the detail I'd like):

When/how did the consequence of "death" as spoken of in Genisis turn into the concept of hell as taught by Christ in the NT?​

menageriekeeper...

If you are looking for a year when the concept of Hell (as taught by Christ) began, you may need to invest a lot of research time to get an answer. And then, the answer may only cover several centuries (e.g., somewhere between the Jewish diaspora, 6th century B.C., and the time of Christ).

I tried to give you a start on answering the question with the longer word study I posted. Which took over an hour and the reference book was five feet from my laptop!

Another suggestion may be to identify the Hebrew words that are translated in English as "Hell" and related English words, and trace their usage in the Old Testament. At the very least you will need an English concordance and Hebrew concordance (two separate books). Unfortunately, I did not do this for you. I only traced one Greek word in the New Testament (to clear up the parameters of the search somewhat).

One problem with the research will be there are various Hebrew words used for the multiple concepts of Hell in both Testaments. Another problem is that the meanings (concepts) of these words change over the time periods of the Old Testaments and New Testament. And the dates for Old Testament books themselves are often disputed among Biblical scholars. To do this kind of research you will need the type of resources only found in Seminary libraries (unless you have deep pockets).

I did go one more step on the question for you and look up some links that may lead you further down this complicated path of dating the origin of the concept of Hell as taught by Christ. Here are two sources focused upon the Christian concept of Hell. Both links have reference sections at the end of the articles.

Wikipedia article: Hell in Christian beliefs

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology article on Hell​

Finally, your question would make a nice dissertation for seminary or graduate school.


I hope what little I have done will help you in some way.


...Bob