Why Pray, Arminian?

[glfredrick]

We don't pray that God overrides free will, but that He draws them.

Why not?

So more can perish?

Is this not one and the same? It is to the Calvinist position. I'm thinking that some here are arguing against something that they are in fact practicing, but because of all the "bumper-sticker" preaching they've heard, they don't even understand what it is that they are saying or believing!

 

[glfredrick]

You can't have it both ways. Calvinists say that man has absolutely no choice in whether he is saved or not. If man has no choice in whether he is saved, then he has no choice in whether he prays. If you say he has choice about prayer, then you are a hypocrite when you say he doesn't have a choice about salvation.

You have this exactly wrong...

Archangel said very clearly that men resist God until God regenerates them.

At that point, the man comes WILLINGLY to God, for He has seen or tasted a portion of the glory and grace of God, and doing so will indeed cause one to both WANT and RECEIVE God.

Why, after all the times it has been explained do you return back to a false view of Calvinism?

 

[matt wade]

You have this exactly wrong...

Archangel said very clearly that men resist God until God regenerates them.

At that point, the man comes WILLINGLY to God, for He has seen or tasted a portion of the glory and grace of God, and doing so will indeed cause one to both WANT and RECEIVE God.

Why, after all the times it has been explained do you return back to a false view of Calvinism?

You can use the words willingly all you want (and even capitalize them!), but it doesn't change the fact that you are still talking about God forcing man to choose Himself.

Luke, you can use the word choice you want all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that you believe God forces man to make a particular choice.

If I had the ability to change your heart so that you would fall in love with a horse, and then you choose to marry that horse, does that make it a free choice or yours?

 

[Luke2427]

You can use the words willingly all you want (and even capitalize them!), but it doesn't change the fact that you are still talking about God forcing man to choose Himself.

Luke, you can use the word choice you want all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that you believe God forces man to make a particular choice.

If I had the ability to change your heart so that you would fall in love with a horse, and then you choose to marry that horse, does that make it a free choice or yours?

Yes.


If doing what you want is not freedom, pray tell, what is?

Man DOES NOT WANT God in his natural state.

God GRACIOUSLY changes his heart.

Now man WANTS God and man chooses God.

He chose what he wanted.

Educated Arminians understand this about Calvinism- why can't you?

 

[Luke2427]

I must insist that we get back on topic.

Is there no "non-reformed" person who can answer the quesitons of the OP?

Praying for the conversion of sinners:


Now, in your system as an Arminian or "non-reformed", why pray for the salvation of sinners?

God WILL not override their free will. AND God WILL not draw one more than the other. AND God is ALREADY doing ALL that he can to save EVERYONE.

What good is your prayer?

 

[glfredrick]

You can use the words willingly all you want (and even capitalize them!), but it doesn't change the fact that you are still talking about God forcing man to choose Himself.

Luke, you can use the word choice you want all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that you believe God forces man to make a particular choice.

If I had the ability to change your heart so that you would fall in love with a horse, and then you choose to marry that horse, does that make it a free choice or yours?

Actually, we are not. But you are INDEED forcing the conversation in a way that is patently untrue.

God tells us in the SAME Word that we both use that He DRAWS men unto Himself. In particular, He DRAWS the ELECT. How is "drawing" the same as "forcing" when in fact the men who are elect, and are drawn by God come WILLINGLY?

 

[GBC Pastor]

If doing what you want is not freedom, pray tell, what is?

Man DOES NOT WANT God in his natural state.

God GRACIOUSLY changes his heart.

Now man WANTS God and man chooses God.

He chose what he wanted.

Educated Arminians understand this about Calvinism- why can't you?

If this is so then it is only because God has forced a change of man's "wants". Which is still not freedom or choice.

 

[GBC Pastor]

why pray for the salvation of sinners?

Because God commands us to. Same answer you gave as a Calvinist.

 

[Luke2427]

If this is so then it is only because God has forced a change of man's "wants". Which is still not freedom or choice.

Would you rather God leave you to your original "wants" so that you and ALL men will go to hell?

Even Arminians believe that God changes the hearts of those he converts.

What do you base your theology on?

I have not seen any Bible from you.

And why don't you answer the question of the OP?

 

[pinoybaptist]

If this is so then it is only because God has forced a change of man's "wants". Which is still not freedom or choice.

yeah, you're right.
God shoulda just left man alone, sit down at His throne, tweedle with His thumb and watch helpless man choose his god and then say the god he chose is the true god, and then have fun by telling man in the Bible: can the Ethiopian change his skin, and the leopard his spots ? then may ye do good, which are accustomed to evil.

He should get lessons from today's liberals everywhere and learn a thing or two about tolerance and liberalism.

 

[glfredrick]

Because God commands us to. Same answer you gave as a Calvinist.

Buy, as Luke2427 asked, why?

Also, if citing God's command works for an Arminian, why does it not work for a Calvinist. We are seldom given that benefit of the doubt.

 

[Luke2427]

Because God commands us to. Same answer you gave as a Calvinist.

Excellent.

Will it avail anything in your system of belief?

Will it move God to draw the one who you pray for more than he draws any other?

Do you not believe that God draws ALL people EQUALLY?

What exactly do you pray?

God save __________. Isn't that pointless in your system since in your system God is already doing all he can to save that person?

And isn't it true that the person's salvation whom you pray for is not up to God? It is up to him to choose to believe, right?

Do you believe your prayer avails anything in light of these issues?

 

[GBC Pastor]

yeah, you're right.
God shoulda just left man alone, sit down at His throne, tweedle with His thumb and watch helpless man choose his god and then say the god he chose is the true god, and then have fun by telling man in the Bible: can the Ethiopian change his skin, and the leopard his spots ? then may ye do good, which are accustomed to evil.

He should get lessons from today's liberals everywhere and learn a thing or two about tolerance and liberalism.

LOL. Yeah you're right that is exactly what I had in mind! (Please do read in the intended mocking tone of this response.)

 

[GBC Pastor]

Also, if citing God's command works for an Arminian, why does it not work for a Calvinist. We are seldom given that benefit of the doubt.

I've got no problem doing what God commands. "Because God commands it" is a perfectly acceptable answer for an Arminian or Calvinist in my book. Now a better question might have been, "what does an Arminian or Calvinist hope to gain through prayer?"

Will it avail anything in your system of belief?

"The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." So I would say yes.

Do you not believe that God draws ALL people EQUALLY?

Actually in point of fact I don't. I believe God draws all people in terms of the Holy Spirit working on the heart of a man. But I do believe that this is resistible, and that there is no guarantee that the Holy Spirit may knock on the door of an unsaved persons heart again. Why does God give some many opportunities and others perhaps only one? I don't know. That I leave as the sovereignty of God. So when I pray for a lost person I am praying for God to graciously give them another opportunity to receive Him. Whether that will happen or not only God knows, but I pray for it because I have been commanded to pray.

 

[luke1616]

I see how Satan can divide us and cause hate. Two camps, both think they are true, and the other false. All the while baiting us to keep our eyes off Jesus and on men. God forgive us and bless us with your wisdom.:godisgood:

 

[Luke2427]

I've got no problem doing what God commands. "Because God commands it" is a perfectly acceptable answer for an Arminian or Calvinist in my book. Now a better question might have been, "what does an Arminian or Calvinist hope to gain through prayer?"



"The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." So I would say yes.

What exactly does it avail? It just increases opportunities, right?

So God is not fair, then, in his dealings with men. He does indeed give some MANY, MANY more chances than others- right?

Many are in hell saying, "Oh WHY didn't someone pray for me more!"

Your prayer REALLY increases the chances of someone being saved.

Your prayer has MUCH to do with whether or not one goes to heaven, right?

Actually in point of fact I don't. I believe God draws all people in terms of the Holy Spirit working on the heart of a man.

So, in your system God chooses to save people based a great deal on the prayers of Christians, right?

He gives some opportunity to all, but he gives a whole lot more opportunity to those who are prayed for.

The chances of heaven increase greatly for that poor soul who is prayed for most and the chances of hell increase TREMENDOUSLY for the one nobody prays for, right?

If that is true, the number one factor that determines whether the merits of Christ are applied to the sinner is the prayer of the saints, right?

 

[Luke2427]

I see how Satan can divide us and cause hate. Two camps, both think they are true, and the other false. All the while baiting us to keep our eyes off Jesus and on men. God forgive us and bless us with your wisdom.:godisgood:

Luke this is a debate site- we debate here.

What is your argument in the above post?

 

[GBC Pastor]

So, in your system God chooses to save people based a great deal on the prayers of Christians, right?

He gives some opportunity to all, but he gives a whole lot more opportunity to those who are prayed for.

The chances of heaven increase greatly for that poor soul who is prayed for most and the chances of hell increase TREMENDOUSLY for the one nobody prays for, right?

If that is true, the number one factor that determines whether the merits of Christ are applied to the sinner is the prayer of the saints, right?

Nope. Nice try though. God's desire is for all men to be saved. I think that's in the Bible somewhere. And He extends opportunity for all men to be saved. Many will not accept these opportunities and some may have only one opportunity. Why this is so is unknown to us. I would never say one's chances of salvation increase or decrease based on prayer. I pray because God commands me to pray. However, there does seem to be Scriptural evidence of prayer affecting God's actions.

If that is true, the number one factor that determines whether the merits of Christ are applied to the sinner is the prayer of the saints, right?

No, the number one factor is whether the sinner receives that which Christ has offered.

 

[GBC Pastor]

Many are in hell saying, "Oh WHY didn't someone pray for me more!"

No Luke, many are in Hell saying, "Why didn't I take what God offered to me?"

 

[luke1616]

Luke this is a debate site- we debate here.

What is your argument in the above post?

God called us to love. Here we bite and scratch, judge salvation on beliefs, we don't edify. It's all for the sake of being right instead of giving insight.:love2: