Sovereignity of God

[zrs6v4]

I agree with what you said here, but the opportunity for being saved was opened to Judas just like the other 11, it is Judas that gave up not God on him.

I agree and disagree with your statement here. Judas never really "came" to Jesus nor did God really preserve or attempt to work on Judas heart as He does His sheep. If God wanted to preserve Judas like the 11 He surely would have. It is a true statement that God never rejects those who truly "come" to Him. John 6:35-40 would be a great explanation of sovereignty and the will of man.

The control of evil is by removing a hedge of protection or placing a hedge of protection, and how far it can go which means the hedge isn't completely removed. It does not stop forgiveness, it is open to all sinners even with the hedge of protection removed.

This is always open for us. We can take refuge in the Lord

Psalm 46

Devil can tempt us, but we are dragged away by our own evil desires

If God didn't have control then we would have already destroyed ourselves. Salvation is open to all sinners just as they are dead in their sin through Jesus Christ.

I think I agree with all you've said here. I do not believe there is ever a point on this side of eternity that someone can't turn to Christ, no matter how evil they've been. All people are wicked sinners to the core of heart and are in opposition to God (Romans 3 and Romans 8 are great examples). The only way a wicked sinner will turn to God is by the work of God within Him that makes Him willing. If God has elected someone there is nothing that can stop God's choice (Read Romans 8:30 to the end of ch.8).

I think it is interesting that Jesus told Peter that Satan could sift him like wheat. Satan did tempt Peter and lead him away with ease. Yet God chose Peter and saved him. Judas on the other hand was lead by Satan to deceive Jesus and God let Judas be. This isn't to say God pushed Judas away, but Judas was left alone in his fallen state.

I hope I didn't get to off topic...

 

[psalms109:31]

Sheep

I believe that he is His sheep, but as the scripture say's if you disown Him, He will disown you. He could of been crafted back in if he didn't continue in his unbelief.

Jesus would of came after Judas, if he didn't commit suicide, just as he went after Peter. Only if Judas would of listened and learned from the Father through the words of Jesus.

Jesus will not lose anyone He has been given, but as the scripture say's

1 John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.

 

[Luke2427]

Psalms

I find myself in agreement with you. I do not think there is, nor ever has been a person for whom God's grace of salvation was unavailable.

But why?

Why think that?

 

[zrs6v4]

I believe that he is His sheep, but as the scripture say's if you disown Him, He will disown you. He could of been crafted back in if he didn't continue in his unbelief.

Jesus would of came after Judas, if he didn't commit suicide, just as he went after Peter. Only if Judas would of listened and learned from the Father through the words of Jesus.

Jesus will not lose anyone He has been given, but as the scripture say's

There is a lot of mixed up statements in the above that I disagree with. It almost sounds like you believe that salvation hinges on man rather than the power of God. If it hinges on man then it can be lost, but because it is hinged on God we cannot lose our salvation. This is what your 1 John 2:18 quote means. If we are really Jesus sheep we wouldn't deny Him or turn from the faith or we weren't really of Jesus.

Did you read the John 6:35-40 reference? If you read it you will find that salvation includes our willingness to come to christ in faith. But if you look carefully you will find that our coming is a result of the Father's giving to the Son. All that the Father gives the Son (all of the sheep) will come and Jesus will raise on the last day. If you believe in eternal security you will believe that the power of God is what brings the elect to the end faithfully. I would take that a step further to say that God's sovereignty over salvation specifically works the same way before one comes to Christ and afterward, generally speaking (God is the cause).

People do not believe unless they are Jesus' sheep. The reason people believe is because they are sheep. John 10:26-27/ John 6:64-65. The choice of God is the causation for the effect of belief. It is the drawing work of God's Spirit John 6:44-45. Thus the God-head works effectually to bringing about His sovereign (primary or 1st cause) will.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Please tell me that everyone here understands "fore-knowledge" has NOTHING TO DO with "fore-seeing". Two entirely different concepts that when misunderstood lead to threads like this.

People do evil things because it is our nature. That God is still in control even in such circumstances to have His will done 100% does not depend on man doing good/evil. It depends on God.

I hear this often; do you have any Scriptural proof?

Ah, a dictionary is your friend. A greek lexicon even better.

Fore-seeing is seeing ahead
Fore-knowing is knowing ahead

God can fore-see everything (just like I actually could fore-see YOU posting this question). If He acts on what He sees, He is actually REACTING to events. He is secondary or even tertiary in cause; the person/event that He is reacting to it the real "god".

Hence my disgust for the arminian/pelagian view of man as god, and God as a pathetic reactor, depending on US to make a choice or do a deed. What a sham of a god.

God fore-KNEW me in eternity past. Placed His unmerited love and grace on me in eternity past. Why? Hello. If I had a REASON it would be "merited" love, not "unmerited".

Study the words "see" and "know". His intimate relationship (like Adam knew Eve and she bore a son) of KNOWING me is precious.

And what did God see? A rebelious vile sinner at war with him and all that is righteous, deserving only hell. If my election/salvaiton is based on God "seeing" ahead, He needs glasses. I was, like every other sinner, totally lost, hellbound, and happy about it.

 

[preacher4truth]

Hence my disgust for the arminian/pelagian view of man as god, and God as a pathetic reactor, depending on US to make a choice or do a deed. What a sham of a god.

Very well put an amen to that.

 

[quantumfaith]

But why?

Why think that?

Remember our earlier discussions, You feel God is primarily motivated by being glorified, as I think He is primarily motivated by Love. I think He loves every part of His creation.

I know you probably would never read Peter Kreeft, but he has an excellent book, "The God who Loves You". Mainly topical, but for me and excellent book.

Back to love, I think God absolutely loves everything and everyone, but His love is also tempered with his justice, thus he will allow us to reject him, reject being a member of the household of faith.

The rub for me is the fact that all men do not have "equivalent" exposure to the revelation of God. Some grow up in cultures and homes at best ambivalent to the gospel, at worst hostile to its message. For those who truly never have had the privilege that you and I have with all of our access, well, that is why I am glad I am not god.

Just my thoughts and ramblings.

 

[glfredrick]

Remember our earlier discussions, You feel God is primarily motivated by being glorified, as I think He is primarily motivated by Love. I think He loves every part of His creation.

Quantum, can you back up that concept with solid biblical exposition? I know there are passages that say that God loves us, but can you sustain an argument that His love is of an higher order than His glory?

 

[psalms109:31]

There is a lot of mixed up statements in the above that I disagree with. It almost sounds like you believe that salvation hinges on man rather than the power of God. If it hinges on man then it can be lost, but because it is hinged on God we cannot lose our salvation. This is what your 1 John 2:18 quote means. If we are really Jesus sheep we wouldn't deny Him or turn from the faith or we weren't really of Jesus.

Did you read the John 6:35-40 reference? If you read it you will find that salvation includes our willingness to come to christ in faith. But if you look carefully you will find that our coming is a result of the Father's giving to the Son. All that the Father gives the Son (all of the sheep) will come and Jesus will raise on the last day. If you believe in eternal security you will believe that the power of God is what brings the elect to the end faithfully. I would take that a step further to say that God's sovereignty over salvation specifically works the same way before one comes to Christ and afterward, generally speaking (God is the cause).

People do not believe unless they are Jesus' sheep. The reason people believe is because they are sheep. John 10:26-27/ John 6:64-65. The choice of God is the causation for the effect of belief. It is the drawing work of God's Spirit John 6:44-45. Thus the God-head works effectually to bringing about His sovereign (primary or 1st cause) will.

I believe those who trust in Christ are kept by Jesus and He will not lose them.

These are the one's who God will keep out of Israel His.

Those who are meek and humble who trust in the Lord.

We who believe can't go back to what we once was or we haven't believed what Christ did for us.

Now for us gentiles we where included with the His sheep when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

Israel the chosen that was cut out was for unbelief, not for not being chosen.

I don't believe we can lose are salvation, because He will keep us, just as the scripture speaks of.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

John 15
The Vine and the Branches
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Romans 11:
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Jude 1:
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

His Sheep has always been those who trust in Him.

 

[quantumfaith]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. - Deuteronomy 7:9

For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. . . - Psalm 37:28

I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me. - Proverbs 8:17

This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. – 1 John 4:9-11


And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. - 1 John 4:16

We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. – 1 John 4:19-20

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. - 1 John 3:10




Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' – Matthew 22:37-39

Bible Verses on Love – Love for One Another
A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity. - Proverbs 17:17

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. . .And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. - excerpts from 1 Corinthians 13:4-13

My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. - John 15:12-13

'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD. - Leviticus 19:18

Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs. – Proverbs 10:12


I am sure that are many others that speak of God's love. Just as a forethought, as I think you are angling, this is not a provable position.

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum, can you back up that concept with solid biblical exposition? I know there are passages that say that God loves us, but can you sustain an argument that His love is of an higher order than His glory?

Furthemore, on the "expositor" thing. I am not a greek or hebrew scholar, never have been, never will be. One does not need to necessarily be a expositional scholar to "understand" or interpret "big picture" themes and messages in scripture.

 

[Tom Butler]

Back to love, I think God absolutely loves everything and everyone, but His love is also tempered with his justice, thus he will allow us to reject him, reject being a member of the household of faith.

The rub for me is the fact that all men do not have "equivalent" exposure to the revelation of God. Some grow up in cultures and homes at best ambivalent to the gospel, at worst hostile to its message. For those who truly never have had the privilege that you and I have with all of our access, well, that is why I am glad I am not god.

Just my thoughts and ramblings.

At worst is not hostility to the gospel message; it is ignorance of it. Even today, there are areas in the world where the gospel does not reach. A great unanswered question is how a God who loves everything and everyone would not make the gospel available to them.

If one is convinced that every individual has heard the gospel from New Testament times to this day, he must demonstrate how that can be so, when the evidence is to the contrary.

 

[Iconoclast]

free will does not exist......self will does

 

[Robert Snow]

Ah, a dictionary is your friend. A greek[sic] lexicon even better.

Fore-seeing is seeing ahead
Fore-knowing is knowing ahead

God can fore-see everything (just like I actually could fore-see YOU posting this question). If He acts on what He sees, He is actually REACTING to events. He is secondary or even tertiary in cause; the person/event that He is reacting to it the real "god".[sic]

I continue to hear Calvinist say this.

You think because God reacts to human events, it makes Him less of a God! I see it differently, in fact, I see the opposite. Because God is so great, he can both give us our free will to make our own choices, yet He still has the ability to use these choices to bring about His will.

We will just have to disagree on this point.

Hence my disgust for the arminian/pelagian view of man as god, and God as a pathetic reactor, depending on US to make a choice or do a deed. What a sham of a god.

What does disgust me however, is to be treated as though, since I reject Calvinism, I am somehow not up to the standard of the great and powerful Calvinist. You may not mean for your comments to come across this way, but they do.

BTW Doc! Periods and commas go inside the quotation marks.

 

[Robert Snow]

free will does not exist......self will does

Cute! Wrong, but cute.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[The Archangel]

Cute! Wrong, but cute.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

The challenge, though, in quoting this verse is that Israel enjoyed a special relationship with God where He had already revealed Himself to them in a mighty way.

What is being suggested, by you and others, with the idea of libertarian free will is that the Philistines or the Egyptians or the Babylonians had the same opportunity to follow YHWH. The Philistines were never offered grace, the Egyptians or Babylonians were never offered grace.

So, the context, in reality, is completely different.

The Archangel

 

[Robert Snow]

The challenge, though, in quoting this verse is that Israel enjoyed a special relationship with God where He had already revealed Himself to them in a mighty way.

What is being suggested, by you and others, with the idea of libertarian free will is that the Philistines or the Egyptians or the Babylonians had the same opportunity to follow YHWH. The Philistines were never offered grace, the Egyptians or Babylonians were never offered grace.

So, the context, in reality, is completely different.

The Archangel

Keep believing this if you want. To me it's just another Calvinist explaining why the bible doesn't mean what it says!

 

[quantumfaith]

free will does not exist......self will does

Please explain, unless your intent was to be snarky. Interested in knowing what you mean here.

 

[quantumfaith]

I continue to hear Calvinist say this.

You think because God reacts to human events, it makes Him less of a God! I see it differently, in fact, I see the opposite. Because God is so great, he can both give us our free will to make our own choices, yet He still has the ability to use these choices to bring about His will.

We will just have to disagree on this point.



What does disgust me however, is to be treated as though, since I reject Calvinism, I am somehow not up to the standard of the great and powerful Calvinist. You may not mean for your comments to come across this way, but they do.

BTW Doc! Periods and commas go inside the quotation marks.

1. My sentiments precisely.

2. I too feel as though I should acknowledge some participants superior theological intellect ( a fact I am much willing to concede). This is usually demonstrated in "matter of fact" assertions and definitions. Not all the "reformed" brothers do this, and I too hope that it is unintentional, and will assume by default that it is. But admittedly it sometimes "yanks my chain" and I have to walk away for a bit. Let me be clear, it is NOT the difference of opinion/interpretation, but rather the "manner or attitude" in which that difference is approached.

 

[webdog]

Very well put an amen to that.

Really?!? You feel it is OK for a BB administrator to break the very rules he is supposed to be enforcing? Saying such tripe as "Hence my disgust for the arminian/pelagian view of man as god" is not only grossly false as they are NOT one in the same, but also that they do not view "man as god".

I really thought you were beyond these kind of attacks, p4t...or at least that is how you came across initially when joining here.