Another question for Calvinists

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why does it imply that God was surprised? There's another passage that is a little questionable and that is Jesus in the garden. Why did He pray that God take the cup away? Did He really think God would do that? No. He knew what was coming but still was in anguish. In the same way, God knew what was going to happen but His heart was still broken when it did happen. There's no tough thing about it in my mind.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::smilewinkgrin:

 

[Amy.G]

I think it means that God was very sorrowful for the greatness of man's sin. Sin always grieves the Holy Spirit. It broke God's heart so to speak.

 

[charles_creech78]

Have you ever thought that God was showing us that he loved us and it grieved him because he loved us? Just like when Jesus was at the rock praying not my will Lord but yours. Who did he die for? Us because he loved us and he knew we was corrupt and that we could not save ourself. All this was done for us honor and glory to God he did all this for us. Don't you understand what he did for us. Thank you Lord honor and glory to thy name!

 

[Amy.G]

annsni;1629098 There's another passage that is a little questionable and that is Jesus in the garden. Why did He pray that God take the cup away? Did He really think God would do that? No. He knew what was coming but still was in anguish.

Jesus asked God to take away the cup so that we would know that there was no other way. IMO.

Similar to God asking Adam "what have you done?". God knew, but wanted Adam to recognize and confess his sin.



PS The quote is totally messed up lately on this board. Argg.

 

[Amy.G]

Ok, being I can't wait all night, I'll get on with it.

Please see the Link

A sailor may need to change many times the path that his boat is going. This does not mean he is changing his mind. He knows what he is doing. The change in the path is part of the plan FROM THE START.

Oh. I thought you meant when the wind gets bad you'd better be wearing a life jacket. :laugh:

 

[Winman]

I don't know that I can make that connection, but I do think that the fact that God was grieved does indicate that the situation could have gone differently.

If God intended man to sin, then why would he be grieved when his will was done? Why would he say it repenteth him that he made man?

In today's language he was saying he was sorry that he made man. How can God be sorry for anything he does?

And if God did not intend for man to sin, it is difficult to imagine he was not surprised when man sinned.

Doesn't anybody see a problem here?

 

[charles_creech78]

If God intended man to sin, then why would he be grieved when his will was done? Why would he say it repenteth him that he made man?

In today's language he was saying he was sorry that he made man. How can God be sorry for anything he does?

And if God did not intend for man to sin, it is difficult to imagine he was not surprised when man sinned.

Doesn't anybody see a problem here?

Because HE LOVED US! HE LOVED MAN! To show he loved us he put it in a book!

 

[Winman]

I think it means that God was very sorrowful for the greatness of man's sin. Sin always grieves the Holy Spirit. It broke God's heart so to speak.

Why would sin grieve God if he intended man to sin as some here teach? I would think it the opposite.

Why would God intentionally do something that grieves himself? That does't make sense.

Did he make a mistake?

Now, don't get me wrong, I believe God knows everything and cannot make mistakes. I am simply asking to see how folks resolve this with their view of theology.

 

[Winman]

Because HE LOVED US! HE LOVED MAN! To show he loved us he put it in a book!

You Cals/Dogs are giving glib little non-answers. You aren't explaining this at all.

 

[jbh28]

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

If God determines every event that ever occurs as most Calvinists believe, why would he do something that grieves him at his own heart? And why would he ever repent of something he had determined? If he determined that sin would enter the world, then why would it grieve him, and why would he repent when his very will came to pass?

I will wait a bit before I respond to this, I want to see what Cals and DoGs have to say. Non-Cals are welcome to give their opinions as well.

Hi Winman. What you have asked is the problem of evil. And you were correct that this isn't a problem just for Calvinist. This is a common question asked by unbelievers about God. It's one of those things that is hard to understand.

We have three truths.

1. God is great (Genesis 18:14, Matthew 19:26)
2. God is good (Matthew 19:17, Psalm 25:8)
3. Evil exists (Genesis 6:5, Matthew 12)

What is hard is to understand how all three of these can coexist. If God is great and good, then why is their evil? Is God not big enough to not allowed evil in the first place?

The only answer that I have is that their is a better purpose of the evil. One of the attributes of God is mercy. How can God show mercy if there isn't anybody in need of mercy. I see God allowing evil,thought it grieves him greatly, because He is more glorified by showing mercy. It is like us doing something we really hate so that we can get a good result. Some hate sitting down and studying. But since they want the knowledge they will receive, they do study.

Not sure if that's the best answer or not, but I hope that helps.

 

[GBC Pastor]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GBC Pastor
I don't know that I can make that connection, but I do think that the fact that God was grieved does indicate that the situation could have gone differently.

If God intended man to sin, then why would he be grieved when his will was done? Why would he say it repenteth him that he made man?

In today's language he was saying he was sorry that he made man. How can God be sorry for anything he does?

And if God did not intend for man to sin, it is difficult to imagine he was not surprised when man sinned.

Doesn't anybody see a problem here?

I certainly wouldn't argue that God intended for man to sin. However, God certainly knew that man would sin. God's sorrow and grief stemmed from His disappointment in mankind's sinful state. I don't think this in anyway surprised God because He knew this would be the case. However, He still grieved because man could have chosen a different path.

This is a little overly simplistic illustration but it is all I have time for tonight:

I would compare it to me as a father with my own children. Right now they are young: 6yrs, 5yrs, and 3 months old. They bring me great joy in my life. However, I know that somewhere down the line they will do something that will disappoint me because all kids make mistakes. The fact that I know that this will occur won't take away my grief or disappointment in the moment.

 

[charles_creech78]

You Cals/Dogs are giving glib little non-answers. You aren't explaining this at all.

I explained it. He wanted us to see how he felt at that time. He was telling us his story just like he has been through out the bible. So what are you saying to me? He don't know what you stand the need of before you ask him! It would not be a very good story if you told it and never showed the reader how you feel. Of course you are right and us Dogs are wrong. God bless!

 

[Winman]

Why does it imply that God was surprised? There's another passage that is a little questionable and that is Jesus in the garden. Why did He pray that God take the cup away? Did He really think God would do that? No. He knew what was coming but still was in anguish. In the same way, God knew what was going to happen but His heart was still broken when it did happen. There's no tough thing about it in my mind.

What if Jesus truly meant what he said? What if he truly did not want to go to the cross? What if his will was different than his Father's?

How do we know Jesus did not mean exactly what he said? I can't imagine Jesus saying anything he didn't truly mean, and we know he cannot lie.

This is what I meant by saying at times God appears to be a paradox. I just want to see if you can resolve this with your theology.

 

[Winman]

I explained it. He wanted us to see how he felt at that time. He was telling us his story just like he has been through out the bible. So what are you saying to me? He don't know what you stand the need of before you ask him! It would not be a very good story if you told it and never showed the reader how you feel. Of course you are right and us Dogs are wrong. God bless!

I haven't even offered an explanation, and said from the start I would wait before offering my view. And that is exactly what I intend to do.

But you haven't given anything that remotely explains these verses.

 

[charles_creech78]

I haven't even offered an explanation, and said from the start I would wait before offering my view. And that is exactly what I intend to do.

But you haven't given anything that remotely explains these verses.

I have not given you what you want to believe or hear! What you want to hear is that God does not know what his creation is doing or does. Go ahead and explain your self because I have said what I need to say and I am done!

 

[charles_creech78]

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[Winman]

I have not given you what you want to believe or hear! What you want to hear is that God does not know what his creation is doing or does. Go ahead and explain your self because I have said what I need to say and I am done!

Too soon for me to answer.

And I have not said anything about what God knows. I have asked if God determined that man would sin, then why would he be grieved when man did exactly what he determined man would do?

Why would obeying God's will grieve him? Shouldn't it please him?

 

[kyredneck]

You Cals/Dogs .......

You like that don't you Winman. You don't even bother to write it as DoGs, just Dogs.... perhaps you are a wee bit narcissistic.

 

[Winman]

I certainly wouldn't argue that God intended for man to sin. However, God certainly knew that man would sin. God's sorrow and grief stemmed from His disappointment in mankind's sinful state. I don't think this in anyway surprised God because He knew this would be the case. However, He still grieved because man could have chosen a different path.

This is a little overly simplistic illustration but it is all I have time for tonight:

I would compare it to me as a father with my own children. Right now they are young: 6yrs, 5yrs, and 3 months old. They bring me great joy in my life. However, I know that somewhere down the line they will do something that will disappoint me because all kids make mistakes. The fact that I know that this will occur won't take away my grief or disappointment in the moment.

Thank you for a serious attempt to answer the question. I agree God did not intend for men to sin, just as you would never want your children to sin.

But several Cals/DoGs here say that God determines everything and that nothing can happen unless God decreed it. That is why this question was primarily directed to them.

 

[Winman]

You like that don't you Winman. You don't even bother to write it as DoGs, just Dogs.... perhaps you are a wee bit narcissistic.

That was a typo. Hey, you picked your own name which is long. And a few days ago someone complained that he did not like being called a Cal. So I started writing Cal/DoGs.

Now how about answering the question?