Another question for Calvinists

[Amy.G]

Of course it doesn't make sense.

You argued that love requires the ability to choose otherwise. I don't think that is the case. I do not believe I will have the ability to hate God in heaven. Of course, I do not believe one's will must be free in order to love.

Of course it must be free in order to love. When you get married it's because you chose your mate above all others. You rejected others and loved your mate. No one makes you do this. It's of your own free will.

 

[StefanM]

Of course it must be free in order to love. When you get married it's because you chose your mate above all others. You rejected others and loved your mate. No one makes you do this. It's of your own free will.

That doesn't mean that I could have done otherwise. It only means that I did so.

What about children, though? Do I choose to have a loving emotion toward them? Did I make the conscious decision to love them and not to hate them?

If I gave you a billion dollars, I highly doubt that you would be able to be unhappy about that fact. Does that mean you are not really happy?

 

[Tom Butler]

Winman, Annsi and quantumfaith,
Thank for your kind remarks about my post #47. As you know, I am a DoG kind of guy, and am comfortable with it. I am convinced that some day I will see how all those things I wrote about jive perfectly with my soteriological system. But I'm afraid that day will come only when I see my Lord in glory. So if you'll meet me at the throne, we'll spend a couple hundred years getting all our questions answered by God himself. If it takes longer than that, no big deal. The rest of you will have to just wait a bit longer until we're through.

 

[Amy.G]

That doesn't mean that I could have done otherwise. It only means that I did so.

What about children, though? Do I choose to have a loving emotion toward them? Did I make the conscious decision to love them and not to hate them?

If I gave you a billion dollars, I highly doubt that you would be able to be unhappy about that fact. Does that mean you are not really happy?

Stephen I'm not trying to be difficult, but you have lost me. Paul describes love in 1 Cor 13.

1 Corinthians 13:4-6 Love suffers long, and is kind; love envies not; love vaunts not itself, is not puffed up, Does not behave itself rudely, seeks not her own, is not easily provoked, keeps no record of evil; Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;

Now can you choose to be patient? Can you choose to be kind, not envious, not braggy, not behave rudely, be unselfish, not easily provoked, not hold grudges, hate sin, rejoice in truth?

Yes you can.

Love is not just a warm, fuzzy feeling.

 

[StefanM]

Stephen I'm not trying to be difficult, but you have lost me. Paul describes love in 1 Cor 13.

1 Corinthians 13:4-6 Love suffers long, and is kind; love envies not; love vaunts not itself, is not puffed up, Does not behave itself rudely, seeks not her own, is not easily provoked, keeps no record of evil; Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;

Now can you choose to be patient? Can you choose to be kind, not envious, not braggy, not behave rudely, be unselfish, not easily provoked, not hold grudges, hate sin, rejoice in truth?

Yes you can.

Love is not just a warm, fuzzy feeling.

I don't believe an individual has the capacity to act in this fashion without God's enabling. In that sense, the choice is not free but is contingent on God's enabling.

Regarding the scripture...is an individual REALLY free to hate sin? I don't see how this is possible without God's influence.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't believe an individual has the capacity to act in this fashion without God's enabling. In that sense, the choice is not free but is contingent on God's enabling.

Regarding the scripture...is an individual REALLY free to hate sin? I don't see how this is possible without God's influence.

I have never said that we can do anything without God's influence.


However, even unbelievers can love others. Did you know that the divorce rate is the same for Christians as unbelievers? I have personally known many unbelievers who were kind and patient and also many unbelievers that never divorced.

 

[StefanM]

I have never said that we can do anything without God's influence.


However, even unbelievers can love others. Did you know that the divorce rate is the same for Christians as unbelievers? I have personally known many unbelievers who were kind and patient and also many unbelievers that never divorced.

If we can't do it without the influence of a third party, the decision is not completely free. That is my point.

Unbelievers can show love because they were created in the image of God.

 

[charles_creech78]

I am glad that we serve a God that is all wise and all powerful. As Paul wrote in Romans:

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Aren't you glad that God's ways are as far above man's ways as heaven is above the earth? God knows all, sees all, and is in control of all.

Amen brother! Glory and honor to God! I am so glad that he is wise and powerful enough to save a vain man like me. :tear: Thank you Jesus!

 

[Robert Snow]

You have taught me afresh why I am not any longer IFB. You limit God to your understanding, and limit Him in capability because He cannot possibly do something if you don't believe He can.

That right there is enough to cut you off. You've been warned plenty.

I turn to Titus 3.

You remind me of a Chihuahua looking into a mirror who thinks he sees a pit bull! :laugh:

 

[Don]

If we can't do it without the influence of a third party, the decision is not completely free. That is my point.

Unbelievers can show love because they were created in the image of God.

I'm unclear what point you're proposing. Are you saying that, being spiritually dead, we're "influenced" (some would say regenerated) by God, and now have a capability of loving Him; and therefore, because it required influence/regeneration, if we choose to accept and love Him, the choice was not actually ours? Despite the possible choice to reject Him?

 

[StefanM]

I'm unclear what point you're proposing. Are you saying that, being spiritually dead, we're "influenced" (some would say regenerated) by God, and now have a capability of loving Him; and therefore, because it required influence/regeneration, if we choose to accept and love Him, the choice was not actually ours? Despite the possible choice to reject Him?

The choice is still ours, but it is not an inherently free choice in the libertarian sense. My point is simply that we are unable to love God without the work of the Holy Spirit enabling us to do so. We are only able to choose within our capacity to do so, and until the Holy Spirit enables a person, no one is able to choose God. We are, however, naturally able to reject God without any external influence. However, even this comes from an external influence (original sin).

The general point I am trying to make is that we should not act as if we did anything in "choosing" God. The capacity to come to God in faith is entirely derived from the Holy Spirit, and the occasion to do so is inextricably linked with the providential hearing of the gospel.

 

[webdog]

Amen amen amen!!!!! Its just amazing how man thinks that he knows what God can do and can't do!

...um...you mean in the same way your theology also claims to do?

 

[webdog]

If your definition of love requires that a person be able to choose otherwise, then if one cannot choose to hate God in heaven then one cannot love in heaven.

I don't define love in this way, so I don't go along with it, but it's the logical extension of your previous statement.

And, regarding your description of free choice, even if the act of volition is free, it is contingent upon several outside factors (such as being born in a country with access to the gospel, being presented the gospel, the work of the Holy Spirit, etc.). You chose none of these factors.

Can Christ choose to hate the Father in Heaven, why or why not? Is His will not free?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Past page limit and not sure how fruitful the thread is.