A Balanced Calvinism

[Jerome]

"There is some truth in Calvinism and some in Arminianism, and he who would hold the whole Truth of God must neither be cramped by the one system nor bound by the other, but take Truth wherever he can find it in the Bible—and leave it to the God of Truth to show him, when he gets into another world, anything that is beyond his comprehension now." —Charles Spurgeon, "It Pleased God"

 

[Luke2427]

Harry Ironside
Avery Rogers
Charley Ryrie
Dwight Pentecost
John Walvoord
Lester Roloff
John R. Rice
Chuck Missler
Jack Hayford

to name a few!

Is it fair to say that most of these guys have come along within the last 100 years.

It seems to me that this "non-reformed yet not Arminian" thinking is a relatively new movement.

 

[Luke2427]

You know, you and P4T have a way of making me feel stupid. Like bullies on the playground. I know I'm not stupid, but you make me feel that way. Maybe that's just my problem, I don't know, but I do know I will be better off just not conversing with either of you anymore.

I apologize.

 

[Winman]

You know, you and P4T have a way of making me feel stupid. Like bullies on the playground. I know I'm not stupid, but you make me feel that way. Maybe that's just my problem, I don't know, but I do know I will be better off just not conversing with either of you anymore.

These guys make you feel stupid? Why? Their arguments are often completely illogical, such as when Luke insists man can have choice when he has no options. The very definition of choice requires a minimum of at least two options.

To believe this you must be naive, or indoctrinated to believe an illogical fallacy. I find neither intimidating.

Don't let them bamboozle you, any person with a lick of sense can easily see through these false arguments.

 

[Luke2427]

These guys make you feel stupid? Why? Their arguments are often completely illogical, such as when Luke insists man can have choice when he has no options. The very definition of choice requires a minimum of at least two options.

To believe this you must be naive, or indoctrinated to believe an illogical fallacy. I find neither intimidating.

Don't let them bamboozle you, any person with a lick of sense can easily see through these false arguments.

Choices have causes, Winman. Something causes you to make the choice you make.

You adhere to this absurd notion that choices escape this law of the universe known as Cause and Effect.

You think choices are spontaneous.

And I am not trying to intimidate anyone, but your lack of intimidation is not because Calvinists here do not tower above you intellectually- but because you are not smart enough to see it. :thumbs:

 

[StefanM]

I think this position is indefensible.

This idea that love cannot be love without free will, meaning, I assume to ability to choose to love or not to love- is not biblical or logical.

The love that Jesus has for the Father is real love- the highest and greatest of loves.

But Jesus does not have the power of contrary choice. He MUST love the father. His perfect and divine nature will not allow otherwise.

My love for my children is real love. I do not have the power of contrary choice. I MUST love them. Love for them has overtaken my will.

This is real love.

The BEST loves in the universe are indeed those that are so great that the will is done away with by them.

This is very well said.

 

[Winman]

Choices have causes, Winman. Something causes you to make the choice you make.

You adhere to this absurd notion that choices escape this law of the universe known as Cause and Effect.

You think choices are spontaneous.

And I am not trying to intimidate anyone, but your lack of intimidation is not because Calvinists here do not tower above you intellectually- but because you are not smart enough to see it. :thumbs:

You love to talk about what causes a choice, but you do not understand what a choice is.

Say you are driving your car and come to a fork in the road. You have options, you can take the road that goes north, or the road that goes south. You can take either for whatever reason compels you.

But what if the road leading north is blocked off with a concrete barrier? Now you have no choice but to take the road leading south.

It doesn't matter the cause, if you have no options you cannot make a choice.

You can' t simply make up your own definitions for words.

 

[Robert Snow]

Is it fair to say that most of these guys have come along within the last 100 years.

It seems to me that this "non-reformed yet not Arminian" thinking is a relatively new movement.

Maybe you should join the Amish, after all Jakob Ammann was around before either Edwards or Spurgeon.

You seem to believe that the older the better. We're not talking wine here, we're talking theology. Age has nothing to do with it. Just because something is older doesn't mean it is more truthful.

Before the birth of Jesus Christ in Bethlehem, the Jews had a theology that went all the way back to Abraham. Their understanding of what God required was incorrect, but it was older than what Jesus taught, which was actually what God had intended. So, be careful with this false notion that older is always better.

 

[Luke2427]

You love to talk about what causes a choice, but you do not understand what a choice is.

Say you are driving your car and come to a fork in the road. You have options, you can take the road that goes north, or the road that goes south. You can take either for whatever reason compels you.

But what if the road leading north is blocked off with a concrete barrier? Now you have no choice but to take the road leading south.

It doesn't matter the cause, if you have no options you cannot make a choice.

You can' t simply make up your own definitions for words.

No one is denying options winman. What swe are denying is that you can choose one just as easily as the other.

When you come to that fork in the road something is going to cause you to choose the path that you wind up choosing.

Your choice has a cause. Is it a choice? Sure. Did something cause you to choose what you wound up choosing- Absolutely.

Choices have causes. They are effects and they have causes. It is a law of the universe.

Jesus said the reason they rejected him in John 8 was beCAUSE they were of their father the devil and his will they WOULD certainly do.

 

[Amy.G]

These guys make you feel stupid? Why? Their arguments are often completely illogical, such as when Luke insists man can have choice when he has no options. The very definition of choice requires a minimum of at least two options.

To believe this you must be naive, or indoctrinated to believe an illogical fallacy. I find neither intimidating.

Don't let them bamboozle you, any person with a lick of sense can easily see through these false arguments.

No, it's not their arguments. It's their attitudes. But they have apologized and I have accepted it.

 

[Amy.G]

I apologize.

Accepted. Thanks.

 

[Luke2427]

Age has nothing to do with it. Just because something is older doesn't mean it is more truthful.

I am very glad to hear you finally admit that. Now you can begin to learn from younger smarter people.:thumbs:

 

[Robert Snow]

I am very glad to hear you finally admit that. Now you can begin to learn from younger smarter people.:thumbs:

All right youngster, watch out! :tongue3:

 

[Amy.G]

I am very glad to hear you finally admit that. Now you can begin to learn from younger smarter people.:thumbs:

Luke, you know what they say don't you? You'd better be nice to older people. They have all the money! :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, you know what they say don't you? You'd better be nice to older people. They have all the money! :laugh:

Very true.

Do you suppose if I am nicer to Mr. Snow he will send me a little?

I can be bought if the price is right!:laugh:

 

[Jerome]

"I have aimed in my ministry constantly to preach, as far as I can, the whole of the Gospel rather than a fragment of it. Therefore those Brethren who are sounder than the Bible abhor me as much as if I were an Arminian. And on the other side, the enemies of the Doctrines of Grace often represent me as an Ultra-Calvinist. I am rejoiced to receive the censure of both sides! I am not ambitious to be numbered in the roll of either party. I have never cultivated the acquaintance nor desired the approbation of those men who shut their eyes to Truths of God which they do not wish to see." —Charles Spurgeon, "General and Yet Particular"

 

[Winman]

No one is denying options winman. What swe are denying is that you can choose one just as easily as the other.

When you come to that fork in the road something is going to cause you to choose the path that you wind up choosing.

Your choice has a cause. Is it a choice? Sure. Did something cause you to choose what you wound up choosing- Absolutely.

Choices have causes. They are effects and they have causes. It is a law of the universe.

Jesus said the reason they rejected him in John 8 was beCAUSE they were of their father the devil and his will they WOULD certainly do.

You are changing your tune. You have always said it is impossible for the unregenerate to choose to believe on Christ. By your own words you are saying they have no choice.

You are hungry, you look in the refridgerator and see hot dogs and pizza. You have options, you can choose whichever you like. But what if all you have is hot dogs? Now you have no choice.

It doesn't matter why, if you have no options you cannot make a choice.

And if the unregenerate cannot possibly accept Jesus, then they have no choice except to reject him.

You have allowed people to deceive you with false arguments. If you wish to continue being deceived, that is your choice.

 

[Luke2427]

You are changing your tune.

No I am not. Any one who follows my posts at all can see that.

You have always said it is impossible for the unregenerate to choose to believe on Christ.

Right. It is.

By your own words you are saying they have no choice.

Wrong. Just because one cannot choose one way of two does not mean that he does not choose the other.

Two options are presented to him. He WILL choose the one that most appeals to him based on some cause.

That he most certainly will choose the one and that it is simply against his nature to choose the other does not negate the fact that the options are there. He just chose the only one he COULD choose.

You are hungry, you look in the refridgerator and see hot dogs and pizza. You have options, you can choose whichever you like.

EXACTLY. Which ever one I LIKE. There is the cause. I will not choose the one I do not like at the moment.

But what if all you have is hot dogs? Now you have no choice.

Life and death are set before man but he will always choose death without God. The options are there but he is only ABLE to choose darkness. He WILL NOT come to the light.

The natural man receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God.

The carnal mind is enmity with God is is not subject unto the law of God neither indeed can it be.

It doesn't matter why, if you have no options you cannot make a choice.

The problem is not with the options; the problem is with the chooser.

And if the unregenerate cannot possibly accept Jesus, then they have no choice except to reject him.

When you say "no choice except to reject him" you admit that there is choice.

No choice except- is still a choice. No dog except... is still a dog.

There is no dog there except Fido. Then there is a dog.

You have no choice BUT to reject. Then there is still a choice.

 

[Winman]

Luke, perhaps the hot dog analogy was poor, because there remains an option, you could choose not to eat at all.

But if your fridge is empty, then you have no options and cannot make a choice.

And this is the case with your theology, a person cannot choose Christ unless he is regenerated. His spiritual refridgerator is empty. He cannot make this choice unless God enables him. Because he does not have this enabling that is necessary to make this choice, he cannot choose Christ.

In your system it is not that he will not choose Christ, it is that he CANNOT.

You preach this stuff all the time and do not understand what you are truly saying.

 

[charles_creech78]

God has provided salvation for everyone, on a equal term of the Gospel! But it is our own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. It is are choose to receive that gift. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.