The fact that they were seeking after God.
NONE seeketh after God. Romans 3
The Bible does not tell us how long a time lag. I figure it varies.
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God Can Do Whatever He Wants To Do With Whoever He Wants To Do It
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The fact that they were seeking after God.
NONE seeketh after God. Romans 3
The Bible does not tell us how long a time lag. I figure it varies.
You're saying God can't draw the lost. This proves you do not believe in the Sovereignty of God to draw who ever He pleases. You're trying to limit God to your understanding instead of the other way around.
MB
You're basing your theology of no one seeking God on one verse in Romans 3 that references a single verse in the Psalms.
Yet there are multiple verses saying that people do seek God.
The Bible does not say there is any time lag. Also I can't find in the Bible where regeneration precedes belief.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
MB still going around spreading falsehood and putting lying words in the mouths of others, things they've never said?
He and several others enjoy this bearing false witness, saying someone said something they've never said. That they enjoy this fare is interesting. Wonder what the Scriptures say about loving and making lies?
There is no fear of God to these. Simply religious folk who won't think twice to lie and twist someones words. Don't waste your time with these luke, just keep on preaching.
Anyhow: :godisgood:
charles_creech78
New Member
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
I don't know about you but when I was lost and a sinner I started to seek the Lord to forgive me. I was knocking seeking and crying for God to save me. I was a sinner going down to a devils hell. I was seeking Gods forgiveness and mercy. I was not regenerated nor was I born again. I was a sinner who needed to be born again! The scripture up above was exactly what I was doing when I was seeking God! I was so lost when he came to me. My heart was so heavy with the thought that I had sinned against God and he died for me. My burden was there when I asked him to forgive me. I felt it lift of my soul! Glory and Honor to Jesus. I felt the shame leave! Thank you Lord! I felt him born my soul again. He saved me! Blessed be the name of the Lord. I got up off of my knees rejoicing and it was the goodness and mercy of God that lead me! I love him because he firsts loved me. I was not born again when I was seeking forgiveness! I was a lost soul who needed God to save him. God bless!
There are verses that teach that men seek after God but those verses have to be in agreement with Romans 3 which says that none do.
Now, is there a contradication in Scripture? No.
The way they are reconciled is this:
NONE seek after God until they are drawn by God. Then those drawn by God seek after him.
Jesus said, "None can come to me except my Father draw him.
There it is again.
NONE. No one.
No one seeks after God until God draws him.
As for Scripture that proves that regeneration precedes faith, look at I John 5:1- "Everyone that believeth that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."
If they HAVE BEEN born of God then the being born of God precedes believing.
Jesus said in John 3- "Except ye be born again ye cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."
You can't see it- you can't perceive it- you can't comprehend it.
I Corinthians 2:14 says, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... NEITHER CAN HE."
This is the reason why the new birth MUST take place before faith because faith is "receiving the things of the Spirit of God". One CANNOT do that so long as he is only natural. He must become something more than natural.
Regeneration makes him spiritual so that he now can SEE the Kingdom of God and so that he now will SEEK after God and so that he will believe and be saved.
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That was God drawing you Charles. That drawing is the early stages of regeneration.
No one seeks after God. God draws THEN they seek.
charles_creech78
New Member
Okay you all need to make it clear about God drawing someone which you just did. Do you believe he draws all men?
No attitude, honestly. Just came across wrong.
The Magi were almost for certain of 'the school of Daniel' the prophet. And by their actions they showed the work of the law written in their hearts and that they were children of the heavenly Jerusalem ('more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband' ). Yea, they traveled such great distance to worship the King while those of the earthly Jerusalem who KNEW where the King was to be born and who were a mere five miles from where the King was born, showed no interest in that King.
No, the one verse in Romans 3, which references Psalm 14, says no one seeks God. The verse in John says none can come to Christ unless they are drawn. Seeking and coming to Christ are not synonymous.
Sorry, the Bible doesn't say that. It says no one comes to God unless they are drawn.
No, it happens simultaneously.
He does. He has gone on the record via pm that he cannot question the salvation of others on the public forum, but he does believe that...and has now crossed that line by stating such openly (and violating the very BB rules he is supposed to enforce).
Such is the double standard of the BB...
psalms109:31
Active Member
Drawing
The words of Jesus is amazing it is Spirit and life, it is the words of the Father drawing us, because after Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself, those who listen and learn.
It is right at the door asking us to open the door of our heart to let us in.
The word of Jesus is the regenerating power of God. This is the day the dead will hear His voice and those who listen and let Him in will have eternal life.
Without the word of Jesus we are dead, by rejecting it we reject life.
We are the messengers of life to the dead.
The words of Jesus is amazing it is Spirit and life, it is the words of the Father drawing us, because after Jesus is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself, those who listen and learn.
It is right at the door asking us to open the door of our heart to let us in.
The word of Jesus is the regenerating power of God. This is the day the dead will hear His voice and those who listen and let Him in will have eternal life.
Without the word of Jesus we are dead, by rejecting it we reject life.
We are the messengers of life to the dead.
The Magi were astrologers that were following a star. That's what piqued their interest. That's all the Bible says about them. There is nothing in there about being "the school of Daniel." Nothing about them responding to the law written in their hearts.
You do realize you have crossed over to full out trolling, right? Any fa sad of civility you tried to exhibit early on has been flushed down the toilet. The true colors are bleeding through...
MB did not bear false witness. He used the very "logical" argument you are so apt to throw around in pointing out exactly how illogical his (and yours) view on regeneration is. If one must be regenerated to seek God, MB's point stands.
Of course this will just draw your ire since I questioned you, and you view anyone questioning a reformed "expert" as insulting.
You do realize you gave the "atta boy" to the very Luke you were so quick to want to fight a couple weeks ago, right? Do you think this is the WWE? :laugh:
At least Luke has been civil these past couple weeks in his exchanges, and should be commended for that. You are something else...
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They are the same thing.
The Word of God is clear- none seek after God.
But we know that some do.
So how do we reconcile this paradox?
Simple. None seek until they are regenerated. None come until they are drawn.
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. This natural man does NOT seek God.
John said in John 1 that man does not come to the light because he loves darkness rather than light and does not want his deeds reproved by the light.
This is natural man. He does not come, he does not seek, he does not believe because he cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God.
This is what the Word of God clearly teaches.
Do you have any Scripture to support this notion?
This is pure eisegesis. Nothing in the text states the magi were regenerated or were truly seeking after God.
In fact, Simon (Acts 8) was a magi and was seeking a higher power, not diligently seeking God.
....Wise-men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Mt 2:1,2
Are you implying that their pagan religion of astrology had informed them of 'He that is born King of the Jews'? And that this King would have a star to announce His arrival? And that this 'King of the Jews' would be worthy of their worship?
Perhaps those Jews of Jerusalem would have been better off to have been pagan astrologers instead of of the covenant of Moses.
Ah, the brevity of scripture. It almost forces one to do some reasoning on one's own, doesn't it?
Ah, the brevity of scripture. It almost forces one to do some reasoning on one's own, doesn't it?
Then I question your ability to study scripture to any reasonable degree.
Rom 13 epitomizes this very thing. It is where it describe what Love does as well as is. Love is an action and that action is one you choose.
We are not smitten with love at the mere site of something or someone because they are appealing to our sences.. that is bibilically described as lust.
Love is choice and something you do.
No, the way SCRIPTURE defines love. Love in scripture is NEVER an event that has happened to someone. It is something that they chose to do.
I stand completely amazed at the complete lack of your understanding here
Of course He loves the Father, His very nature is Love and He can not deny Himself thus He 'would not' and not, 'can not', not love the Father. However we are not talking about God the Father and Jesus who are one and always have been.
However we are talking about people and love and how it relates to us.
Interesting, you build your own house of cards (made up of complete fallacies) and then pretend you are knocking it down. Quite amusing if it wasn't so sad.
First, are you using reformed's definition of 'Libertarian free-will', thinking it is the definition, or are you using the non-reformed definition?
Secondly, the view of limited choice (which I use) is in fact established in scripture and through out it. Limited choice (my view and many other non-cals) states that no man has any choice unless God gives it to them, and if God gives it to them both option are valid and the person able to choose between them. Otherwise you have either God deceiving someone or telling them lies that they 'can choose' but not really.
Actually it is the bible that contradicts your emphatically.
Scripture never once says that love just happens to someone and they are in love forever. No, even regarding our salvation, we love him because He first loved us (as just one example). It is a conscience choice. It does not state we love Him because loved happened us.
We are told to love one another.. it is a choice and always has been just as it always will be. Love is patient, it is kind, it does not exalt itself above another, ect.. all of these are actions performed do to a choice to love another.
Sadly, that is where you are wrong again because scripture speaks to this as well in multiple places. The majority of the reformed view just chooses to ignore them, or redefine terms to make more to their liking.
I agree.. it is called "Lust".
I didn't say it had nothing to do with anything.. I said it was what was already being looked for and once found (that is why she was attractive) he chose to focus his love on her.
Of course he does.. it is called salvation.
Look at Duet 30:15-20
Note that life and death not ONLY represent physical but also spiritual and God is telling them to choose.
but note specifically what 19 and 20 states about what happens once one chooses life..
Choose life SO THAT YOU MAY (so these things will come to pass).. 1) live; 2) love God; 3) obey God and be faithful; 4) have His promises
Note what 17 and 18states about those who do not choose life:
Note that not choosing life, these things will come to pass.. 1) will not/no longer hear; 2) drawn away toward other gods and serve them; 3) not receive the promises offered; 4) not live but perish!
This is but one example of many showing choice and that the choice has the chance of going 1 of 2 ways and and either choice was not only viable to the person but that God allowed them then opportunity to choose and as such were 'able'.
Yes, again it is called LUST.. not love.
Pretty story but yes, you need to be realistic and grasp the biblical understanding of love. You already knew what you were looking for, you had already determined in heart that if you ever found such a one you wanted her. You have already determined what you desired. The fact she exceeded these does not negate the fact you were already looking for those aspects in ANY woman. But when you found the one that matched it best.. you CHOSE to place your love toward her.
Agreed, but He didn't and thus established that grace pertaining to salvation is not forced upon anyone because it is intimately intertwined with faith.
Grace regarding general goodness I would agree with you on. God does something regardless of how your react to it.
However Grace regarding salvation (something offered) can be rejected. Your reaction to what God is doing is the basis for what He does next.
Thus we have the multitudes of scripture which speak to God saving or condemning people after they have chosen to believe or reject those truths God Himself has revealed to them via His Spirit.
John 3:36 / Duet 30:15-20 / Prov 1:23-33 Rom 1:18-32 / 2 Thes 2:10-12 - just to give a few of the many examples
You have to in order to maintain your position.. but when one holds to a biblical one.. it matters. No she did not deserve it, but she HAD to go willingly otherwise she would have wacked him in the head till he dropped her and she ran back in there after her dog. God does not save by grace alone because if it is not by faith, it can not be by grace - at least that is what scripture says.
We are not talking about common grace but salvic grace.. You of all people aught to the know difference. ALL grace is given .. but one is given irregardless of choice.. the other can not be fully bestowed without person accepting it, otherwise it is rejected.
They did choose it. Just because they don't like what their rejection entails does not mean they didn't choose it.. Or are you now rejecting the reformed doctrine that man in general has made his choice to be separated from God.You REALLY need to at least stay on track with my position if you are going to attempt to rebut it. Yes God is in control of all that, in conjunction with our choices and all other mankind as well. YET, they can still choose to leave. Maybe not under the most ideal circumstances they would like but they can. The fact is.. many 'stay' where they don't want to live, and many 'stay' at a job they don't like. It isn't they the "Can't" leave, it is that they have chosen not to.
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The text does not state that they were regenerated; you are right.
But this particular text doesn't have to for us to conclude that they were.
Here is why:
The Bible does teach that none seek after God and that man DOES NOT come to the light because he loves darkness rather than light.
Either these verses are true or they are not.
But we know that some DO seek after God and some DO come to the light.
How do we reconcile these things?
Simple: NONE who are in their natural state, spiritually dead, despising the light- NONE of them seek after God.
Who does then?
Those who are not in just a natural state, those who are not spiritually dead, those who no longer despise the light- these seek after God.
Who does that describe?
It describes the regenerate.
So when you see someone truly seeking after God you can conclude that they are regenerate.
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