Does God know?

[freeatlast]

That is what the Bible teaches.

For of him and through him and to him are all things- Romans 11:36

By Him all things consist- Col 1

God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will- Ephesians 1

Amos 3:6- Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Joseph- "You meant it for evil but GOD MEANT IT for good."

The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

I have to admit that you have caught me off guard. I had no idea that some baptists hold that the fall, sin and every event in all eternity all happens because God ordains (commands) it to happen. In other words this is all a pupit show.

 

[Luke2427]

I have to admit that you have caught me off guard. I had no idea that some baptists hold that the fall, sin and every event in all eternity all happens because God ordains (commands) it to happen. In other words this is all a pupit show.

It is what our baptist forefathers believed by and large.

See the Baptist Confession of 1689.

Non-reformed baptists, though they have existed for a long time here and there, did not occupy a large portion of the Baptist world until about 75-90 years ago.

The Southern Baptist movement was by and large reformed for the first several decades. Her flagship seminary was and is to this day thoroughly reformed.

Arminianism hijacked the movement about the first quarter of the last century.

 

[freeatlast]

It is what our baptist forefathers believed by and large.

See the Baptist Confession of 1689.

Non-reformed baptists, though they have existed for a long time here and there, did not occupy a large portion of the Baptist world until about 75-90 years ago.

The Southern Baptist movement was by and large reformed for the first several decades. Her flagship seminary was and is to this day thoroughly reformed.

Arminianism hijacked the movement about the first quarter of the last century.

So with this type of belief doesn't this make God the author of sin?

 

[Luke2427]

So with this type of belief doesn't this make God the author of sin?

I cannot improve upon the words of the one who is considered the greatest theological and philosophical mind in American History, Jonathan Edwards:

Edwards answers, "If by 'the author of sin,' be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing . . . . it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin." But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his "positive agency."

God is, Edwards says, "the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."

 

[Luke2427]

So with this type of belief doesn't this make God the author of sin?

God can be the ultimate cause of evil and not be evil at all himself.

The issue is motive.

God's motive for ordaining that evil should exist is holy and noble and pure.

Motive is ALL that makes a thing morally right or morally wrong.

If I kill a man in his living room I am a murderer.

If I kill the same man on the battlefield I am a hero.

Same action same basic result- one is good and the other is evil.

Motive made the difference. Motive for one was malice. Motive for the other is defense of country.


We see this clearly with Joseph's brothers. Joseph said, "You meant it for evil but God MEANT IT for good."

Same action, different motives.

Adam's motive for partaking of the forbidden fruit was evil.
God's motive for Adam partaking of it was good.

God meant the evil to come to pass and yet he is perfectly holy and righteous at the same time.

In fact, evil is NECESSARY for God to DISPLAY his grace and mercy and love to the fullest.

God COMMENDETH his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

God uses our sin to SHOW his great love.

That in the ages to come he might SHOW forth the exceeding riches of his Grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2.

God SHOWS his great grace and receives glory for it throughout eternity by sin.

God's motive is for evil existing is for his glory.

His glory is the highest and noblest of all motives for anyone- including Himself.

 

[preacher4truth]

I cannot improve upon the words of the one who is considered the greatest theological and philosophical mind in American History, Jonathan Edwards:

People who reject this are literally saying "But God...I thought...uh...How dare God do this...wait a minute...uh...I thought?"

Why reply against the Potter and Creator of the universe? His thoughts are way above ours. We cannot understand all of it, and thus it is out of order since we can't understand all of it, to place blame on Him as if He commited some atrocity in doing what He has clearly done, as Jonathan Edwards has expressed, and to which His Word clearly attests.

Some people don't want to face this reality, due to the fact they have already painted their own portrait of what God is like. Deeper thought, while looking through a non-biased or presupposed lens and reason of Scripture, does indeed paint a completely different portrait of Him and who He is.

It's the same thing in some persons portrait of Christ. They see Him only as love, and have an anemic concept of Him. They refuse to look at some of the difficult passages of Scripture.

Some people will never admit that the God of Scripture is vastly different than the God of their theology.

 

[Jarthur001]

This raises a question. If God knows every single detail throughout all of eternity then is it because He ordains it or because He looks down through history?

Yes...at least I think I agree with this statement. It depends on what you mean by ordain.

 

[webdog]

I suppose ur referring to the 2 Kings 20 example of Hezekiah being told that he will die—then praying—then not dying until 15 years later. This certainly brings up the topic-- does Gods change his mind—in response to our prayers. Now I will be the first to admit—I have preconceived notions that impact my thinking about this topic—so I’m probably not as open to suggestion as I should be—but I personally don’t see God not knowing something with this example. Either God is all knowing & knew that Hez would respond the way he did—thus moved him to do so. Or even if we allow middle knowledge to exist—God knew the possibility of all options—and still knew what the outcome would be based on the particular choice. Or finally, God did not know—and does not know the future until man makes his choice—which questions His omniscience. The first two I can accept as plausible, the last I cannot. Thus, God still knew the outcome although Hezekiah was required to take action. As far as God dealing with his creation outside of time—God is certainly outside of time—but he also deals with is creation in relation to time. Not sure what u mean by ur last question—so maybe I just misunderstood all u said--& posted all this 4 nothing-lol-

Thanks for your honesty.
As to the above bolded, if God knew the outcome of Hezekiah's situation, why / how could He decree to set his home in order that he WAS going to die knowing this was not the case? The would be a lie. Did God lie to Hezekiah to make him take action?

 

[freeatlast]

I cannot improve upon the words of the one who is considered the greatest theological and philosophical mind in American History, Jonathan Edwards:

Perhaps there is a need for a definition of the word "ordain." Here is what I get from a dictionary.
appointed: fixed or established especially by order or command

In the writing that you offered from Edwards he seems to suggest that God simply allows things to happen even though against His will and any ordaining is the ordaining by permission to do as one desires even if against His soverign will. At least that is how I got what he says. However if that be the case then it does not speak to the issue at hand which is God knowing all that will happen in every moment in all eternity before it happens. It only explains in Edward's view how sin came about when a sovereign God rules.

On the other hand if by "ordain" we hold that it means what the dictionary gives then God has actually "authored" (directly makes it happen) sin as well as everything in all eternity because there could not even be sin without Him causing it Himself since nothing has the authority outside of Him to go against His pre-ordained will. I hope I am making myself clear. So with this let me ask for clarification. You and some others are suggesting that God has ordained sin based on what the definition of ordain is, correct?

 

[freeatlast]

Yes...at least I think I agree with this statement. It depends on what you mean by ordain.

Ordain "appointed: fixed or established especially by order or command"

 

[Jarthur001]

I have to admit that you have caught me off guard. I had no idea that some baptists hold that the fall, sin and every event in all eternity all happens because God ordains (commands) it to happen. In other words this is all a pupit show.

Not at all a puppet show. This is the often the logic of those who reject Calvinism, but it is misunderstanding that leads to this rejection.

Calvinism does not teach man has no will, nor does it teach that man does not make choices. Clearly man does make choices every day they are alive. But the choices are not free. God places the choices that we have before us. Opening and closing doors. Those that are not born again will never see God as a choice, even though he stands before the sinner.

Man's will is not free, but rather bound to his desires. Man, apart from the new birth, does not desire God but rather desires his OWN will to sin. God must open the eyes to the truth of the gospel, showing man he is in need.

Man is controlled by sin. God at times uses that desire in man to bring about his plan. Scripture is full of stories tell of this. This does not make God the designer of sin, but shows that God is in control of all things.

In most cases that I'm thinking of at the moment, God is asking the sinner to do right, yet knowing full well that the sinner will NOT do right, thereby LEADING the sinner to his plan and God's own will. NOTICE: Man has made the choice to sin, but God KNEW it when he offered man the choice. So man is the MAKER of sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

Ordain "appointed: fixed or established especially by order or command"

I would not say that he ORDERS sin. He does establish the arena which he knows a sin will take place.

 

[freeatlast]

I would not say that he ORDERS sin. He does establish the arena which he knows a sin will take place.

Let me deal with this first. If you are saying that God has created, appointed, the arena where sin can establish itself by the doings of His creation who has been given the ability to sin if some part of that creation so chooses then i agree. However it is my opinion to use the word ordained sin in regards to God is incorrect as that word carries with it the understanding that God was the One because of His sovereign authority brought about the sin.
Is this your point you are trying to make?

 

[freeatlast]

Not at all a puppet show. This is the often the logic of those who reject Calvinism, but it is misunderstanding that leads to this rejection.

Calvinism does not teach man has no will, nor does it teach that man does not make choices. Clearly man does make choices every day they are alive. But the choices are not free. God places the choices that we have before us. Opening and closing doors. Those that are not born again will never see God as a choice, even though he stands before the sinner.

Man's will is not free, but rather bound to his desires. Man, apart from the new birth, does not desire God but rather desires his OWN will to sin. God must open the eyes to the truth of the gospel, showing man he is in need.

Man is controlled by sin. God at times uses that desire in man to bring about his plan. Scripture is full of stories tell of this. This does not make God the designer of sin, but shows that God is in control of all things.

In most cases that I'm thinking of at the moment, God is asking the sinner to do right, yet knowing full well that the sinner will NOT do right, thereby LEADING the sinner to his plan and God's own will. NOTICE: Man has made the choice to sin, but God KNEW it when he offered man the choice. So man is the MAKER of sin.

What brought this about was the question if God knows every single event in all eternity does he ordain all eternity or look down through eternity to know the events?
With your explanation how does it relate to the original question?

 

[Jarthur001]

Let me deal with this first. If you are saying that God has created, appointed, the arena where sin can establish itself by the doings of His creation who has been given the ability to sin if some part of that creation so chooses then i agree. However it is my opinion to use the word ordained sin in regards to God is incorrect as that word carries with it the understanding that God was the One because of His sovereign authority brought about the sin.
Is this your point you are trying to make?

Understanding what sin is, helps to undertand that God can never MAKE sin.

Sin is a path away from God's will. We see this in the garden till this day.

So, if telling a lie was God's will, how could it also be a sin? It cannot.

 

[Luke2427]

Perhaps there is a need for a definition of the word "ordain." Here is what I get from a dictionary.
appointed: fixed or established especially by order or command

In the writing that you offered from Edwards he seems to suggest that God simply allows things to happen even though against His will and any ordaining is the ordaining by permission to do as one desires even if against His soverign will. At least that is how I got what he says. However if that be the case then it does not speak to the issue at hand which is God knowing all that will happen in every moment in all eternity before it happens. It only explains in Edward's view how sin came about when a sovereign God rules.

On the other hand if by "ordain" we hold that it means what the dictionary gives then God has actually "authored" (directly makes it happen) sin as well as everything in all eternity because there could not even be sin without Him causing it Himself since nothing has the authority outside of Him to go against His pre-ordained will. I hope I am making myself clear. So with this let me ask for clarification. You and some others are suggesting that God has ordained sin based on what the definition of ordain is, correct?

That may be how it appears but it is not what Edwards was saying nor is it what Edwards believed.

God ordained it by permitting it and orchestrating those circumstances so that once he permitted it, it would infallibly come to pass.

That is what he is saying in that quote.

Here is another good statement by Edwards on the matter:

Edwards says, "The crucifying of Christ was a great sin; and as man committed it, it was exceedingly hateful and highly provoking to God. Yet upon many great considerations it was the will of God that it should be done." Then he refers to Acts 4:27-28, "Truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" (see also Isaiah 53:10). In other words, all the sinful acts of Herod, Pilate, of Gentiles and Jews were predestined to occur.

Edwards ponders that someone might say that only the sufferings of Christ were planned by God, not the sins against him, to which he responds, "I answer, [the sufferings] could not come to pass but by sin. For contempt and disgrace was one thing he was to suffer. [Therefore] even the free actions of men are subject to God's disposal."

 

[Luke2427]

Understanding what sin is, helps to undertand that God can never MAKE sin.

Sin is a path away from God's will. We see this in the garden till this day.

So, if telling a lie was God's will, how could it also be a sin? It cannot.

God can be the ultimate cause of evil and not be evil at all himself.

The issue is motive.

God's motive for ordaining that evil should exist is holy and noble and pure.

Motive is ALL that makes a thing morally right or morally wrong.

If I kill a man in his living room I am a murderer.

If I kill the same man on the battlefield I am a hero.

Same action same basic result- one is good and the other is evil.

Motive made the difference. Motive for one was malice. Motive for the other is defense of country.


We see this clearly with Joseph's brothers. Joseph said, "You meant it for evil but God MEANT IT for good."

Same action, different motives.

Adam's motive for partaking of the forbidden fruit was evil.
God's motive for Adam partaking of it was good.

God meant the evil to come to pass and yet he is perfectly holy and righteous at the same time.

In fact, evil is NECESSARY for God to DISPLAY his grace and mercy and love to the fullest.

God COMMENDETH his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

God uses our sin to SHOW his great love.

That in the ages to come he might SHOW forth the exceeding riches of his Grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2.

God SHOWS his great grace and receives glory for it throughout eternity by sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

What brought this about was the question if God knows every single event in all eternity does he ordain all eternity or look down through eternity to know the events?
With your explanation how does it relate to the original question?

Again, you are trying to make two choices here. Like the Arminian vs Calvinism views. I'm saying that those that make a difference here (Arminian) must not understand that in the end there is no difference between the two.

Arminian...God looks down in time to know.
Calvinism...God knows because he decreed it.

The Arminian does not understand he is saying the same thing.

GOD KNOWS....
then..
GOD MAKES...

That is supralapsarianism

 

[Jarthur001]

God can be the ultimate cause of evil and not be evil at all himself.

The issue is motive.

God's motive for ordaining that evil should exist is holy and noble and pure.

Motive is ALL that makes a thing morally right or morally wrong.

If I kill a man in his living room I am a murderer.

If I kill the same man on the battlefield I am a hero.

Same action same basic result- one is good and the other is evil.

Motive made the difference. Motive for one was malice. Motive for the other is defense of country.


We see this clearly with Joseph's brothers. Joseph said, "You meant it for evil but God MEANT IT for good."

Same action, different motives.

Adam's motive for partaking of the forbidden fruit was evil.
God's motive for Adam partaking of it was good.

God meant the evil to come to pass and yet he is perfectly holy and righteous at the same time.

In fact, evil is NECESSARY for God to DISPLAY his grace and mercy and love to the fullest.

God COMMENDETH his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

God uses our sin to SHOW his great love.

That in the ages to come he might SHOW forth the exceeding riches of his Grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2.

God SHOWS his great grace and receives glory for it throughout eternity by sin.

I simply disagree and will go with the man from hippo on this. He too used the path idea.

 

[freeatlast]

Again, you are trying to make two choices here. Like the Arminian vs Calvinism views. I'm saying that those that make a difference here (Arminian) must not understand that in the end there is no difference between the two.

Arminian...God looks down in time to know.
Calvinism...God knows because he decreed it.

The Arminian does not understand he is saying the same thing.

GOD KNOWS....
then..
GOD MAKES...

That is supralapsarianism

Your response in this is not your fault it is mine. I was not clear on the issue. I do not take either view. I was posing a question in which I know both views are held either in absolute form or in some kind of mix and mash. I reject both views, but I do recognize I could be wrong, but I also feel those with the two views you gave could also be wrong.