Everyone of God's created people are saved from their flesh when they die. My flesh died to the world when I was made sinless on June 14, 2008. Now God has total control of it, just like he will with everyone's flesh in paradise.
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Oneness doctrine
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
Everyone of God's created people are saved from their flesh when they die. My flesh died to the world when I was made sinless on June 14, 2008. Now God has total control of it, just like he will with everyone's flesh in paradise.
One more thing before I go. Just curious, what is the name of your god?
menageriekeeper
Active Member
If Rome killed all the saints, how'd you become one?
Do you reject all the entire Bible on the basis that Rome corrupted it, or just the NT?
How can you claim to have been converted if you reject the words of God?
In speaking as a prophet have you no fear?
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Do you reject all the entire Bible on the basis that Rome corrupted it, or just the NT?
How can you claim to have been converted if you reject the words of God?
In speaking as a prophet have you no fear?
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
John 10:5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice. :smilewinkgrin:
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
The Jews stoned Stephen to death, not the Romans. Stephen had been preaching to the Jews, including the Chief Priests, when Acts 7.59 says:
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
Does that mean you believe no saints have been killed since the early fourth century, or that there haven't been any saints since that time? In either case, can I ask you what your definition of "saint" is?
I'm sure you do have all kinds of interpretations, but if they lead you to the conclusion that Christianity is not of God, I wonder you base those interpretations on.
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Stanedglass
New Member
I understand I'm probably jumping in here at the 11th hour but couldnt resist this topic.
A while back (and its been a while) I started a poll/topic titled "Do you have to believe that Jesus is the 2nd person to be saved" which stemmed from a comment made by DHK
Round and round it went and yet no scripture was ever given that states that or that you must believe that God is triune to be saved.
So in my opinion it's not the ones who hold to a triune or oneness doctrine who are heretics, it's the one's who say that you HAVE TO believe in the Trinity to be saved. It's not scriptural. Only thing thats scriptural is that you must believe that Jesus is He. (John 8:24)
Dr. Walter
New Member
John 8:24 does not say "is he" (third person singular) but ego eimi "I Am" (first person singular) which is the delcaration to be God. Remember the design of John's gospel is to demonstrate that Jesus is God the Son. He begins that way (John 1:1-3) and develops witnesses to prove that he is not merely a man but God in the flesh. It concludes with the Testimony of Thomas - "my Lord and my God."
John 17:3 defines eternal life inseperably with a proper knowledge of the true God and His Son.
One does not have to completely understand the Trinity to be saved but no one can be saved that denies it (2 Jn. 9-11).
Stanedglass
New Member
Who says you can't be saved if you deny the trinity?
If I know Jesus as God, and trust in him, thats really all thats required for salvation...right?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Jn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..
Lack of understanding, lack of information is not an impediment but outright denial of the true nature of God is IDOLATRY.
There is "another Jesus" just as there is "another gospel." Faith in neither can save.
Idolatry originates with a false concept of the nature of God in the mind of a human. External expression of that false concept is manifested in words as well as actions (carving statues, pictures, etc.).
An idolatrous god is the concept that the Father is Alone God as demonstrated in the Jewish; Muslim; Unitarian; Jehovah's Witness, etc. religions.
An idolatrous god is the concept that Jesus is Alone God as demonstrated in the Oneness movement.
An idolatrous god is the concept that the Holy Spirit alone is God.
Eternal life is the revelation of the TRUE GOD not idolatrous revelations.
Stanedglass
New Member
At what point is someone saved? When they understand the Trinity or when they hear about a God who died for them and accept him?
My quote:
If Jesus is not the second person of the trinity, then who is he?
Is he Ram, Ganesh, Allah, who?
The second person of the triune Godhead defines who Christ is. Otherwise you are putting your faith in an unknown god. That is why the trinity is so important. It defines who Christ is. Without it, you deny the deity of Christ. He is no longer God the Son. If no longer God the Son, then who is he? He is an unknown god, that any religion could be worshiping. If you don't know who you are worshiping then you are not worshiping Christ. As Dr. Walter said, that is idolatry.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Staned Glass...
Well, it depends on the situation.
A person does not have believe in the Trinity *perfectly, or *precisely* the way most evangelicals see it...to be saved. In my opinion christians who demand that everyone view it exactly the way that they do, are..in my opinion...nit picking, and being legalistic and phariseeical.
Every one acknowleges that the Trinity can not be fully understood, yet they turn right around and demand everyone view it...to the letter..exactally as they do! Its kind of sad.
A person MUST of course acknowlege the "Triune" nature, as the scriptures clearly teach it. The scriptures CLEARLY teach that the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And the scriptures clearly teach there is one God, not 3.
We have no choice but to accept that.
But God has decided to NOT give us detailed, lenghty, comprehensive teachings regarding how the Godhead functions, how the 3 persons relate to each other, how they communicate, etc etc. We have SOME information of course, but not tons of it. Thats why we tell people that it is somewhat of a mystery.
If something is a "mystery", you CAN NOT dogmatically demand that people believe it exactly as you do, or they are branded a heretic.
Thats why I personally dont brand the Oneness Petecostals as heritics because of there view of the Triune nature of God.
They CLEARLY understand that God has manifested himself in a triune way, as...
1) The Father
2) The Son (Jesus Christ)
3) The Holy Spirit.
But...they believe that God..the One God..is going back and forth, manifesting himself in those three different ways. I dont know what they do with Christ's baptism scene, but thats there buisiness.
I disagree with them, but I dont condemn them for that.
The Jehovahs Witnesses? Thats a different story. They clearly deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. That MUST be condemned.
That is entirely different than the Oneness pentecostals.
Same thing with the Mormons. They actually believe that they will "grow up" one day and become a God and start their own universe!!
That as well, MUST be condemed.
Those are way beyond the Oneness pentecostals.
Hope that helps.
Well, it depends on the situation.
A person does not have believe in the Trinity *perfectly, or *precisely* the way most evangelicals see it...to be saved. In my opinion christians who demand that everyone view it exactly the way that they do, are..in my opinion...nit picking, and being legalistic and phariseeical.
Every one acknowleges that the Trinity can not be fully understood, yet they turn right around and demand everyone view it...to the letter..exactally as they do! Its kind of sad.
A person MUST of course acknowlege the "Triune" nature, as the scriptures clearly teach it. The scriptures CLEARLY teach that the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And the scriptures clearly teach there is one God, not 3.
We have no choice but to accept that.
But God has decided to NOT give us detailed, lenghty, comprehensive teachings regarding how the Godhead functions, how the 3 persons relate to each other, how they communicate, etc etc. We have SOME information of course, but not tons of it. Thats why we tell people that it is somewhat of a mystery.
If something is a "mystery", you CAN NOT dogmatically demand that people believe it exactly as you do, or they are branded a heretic.
Thats why I personally dont brand the Oneness Petecostals as heritics because of there view of the Triune nature of God.
They CLEARLY understand that God has manifested himself in a triune way, as...
1) The Father
2) The Son (Jesus Christ)
3) The Holy Spirit.
But...they believe that God..the One God..is going back and forth, manifesting himself in those three different ways. I dont know what they do with Christ's baptism scene, but thats there buisiness.
I disagree with them, but I dont condemn them for that.
The Jehovahs Witnesses? Thats a different story. They clearly deny the Deity of Jesus Christ. That MUST be condemned.
That is entirely different than the Oneness pentecostals.
Same thing with the Mormons. They actually believe that they will "grow up" one day and become a God and start their own universe!!
That as well, MUST be condemed.
Those are way beyond the Oneness pentecostals.
Hope that helps.
Stanedglass
New Member
Stanedglass
New Member
Either you believe in the trinity or you don't. It is really quite simple: One God subsisting in three distinct but co-equal and co-eternal persons (not manifestations and not personages as the Oneness teach). They are persons. And that is important.
We acknowledge that the nature of God cannot be fully understood. Look in any Bible dictionary and it will give you a succinct definition of the trinity. That definition will contradict everything about God that Oneness believes. You may not completely understand the inward workings of the trinity, but one must take it by faith, that that is what it is. It is not what the Oneness teach. The Oneness teach heresy.
True, and that all three of these persons make up that one God and are equal one to the other.
There is quite a bit of information on the trinity if we search for it.
It is not a mystery; only difficult to understand. By your definition the very nature of God is a mystery; therefore we cannot believe in God. We must remain atheists, lost in our sin.
Understand what Oneness believes:
No they don't; not in the way that evangelical Christianity does. They actually deny the trinity. They have no explanation for Christ's baptism given in Matthew 3 where all three persons of the trinity appear at the same time: the voice of the Father, the Spirit as a dove, and Christ in the Flesh. According to their theology this is impossible because one is simply a "manifestation" of the other. This is heresy.
It is your business to contend for the faith and rebuke error.
Every book of the NT tells us to beware of false doctrine. Why wouldn't you condemn them for that when Christ does, Paul does, Peter does, John does, etc.
As do the Oneness!!
Stanedglass
New Member
Alive in Christ
New Member
DHK...
You posted...
Some of those I dont have any problem with at all. Many are very problematic.
But for sure their different take regarding the Triune nature of God is one of the least problematic.
If God were to open a door of witness for me to talk with a Oneness, I wouldnt even bring up the Trinity issue.
Some of the other are much MUCH more problematic. Things that really can keep someone from being saved.
But not understanding the Trinity is not going to keep anyone out of heaven, if they are Ok with the foundational issues like justification through faith in Christ alone, the importance of being grounded in the Grace of God, understanding our "new life" etc.
I have GREAT issues with several of the others, but but not how they view the Triune nature of God. They are certainly WRONG regarding the Triune nature of God, but I'd move on to other issues.
You posted...
Some of those I dont have any problem with at all. Many are very problematic.
But for sure their different take regarding the Triune nature of God is one of the least problematic.
If God were to open a door of witness for me to talk with a Oneness, I wouldnt even bring up the Trinity issue.
Some of the other are much MUCH more problematic. Things that really can keep someone from being saved.
But not understanding the Trinity is not going to keep anyone out of heaven, if they are Ok with the foundational issues like justification through faith in Christ alone, the importance of being grounded in the Grace of God, understanding our "new life" etc.
I have GREAT issues with several of the others, but but not how they view the Triune nature of God. They are certainly WRONG regarding the Triune nature of God, but I'd move on to other issues.
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Very interesting responces Alive. Thanks for everyones input on this subject. :type:
Like only Oneness go to heaven.
But it is problematic--very problematic. Look at the statements made concerning it:
They do deny the trinity, so one cannot say that they believe in it.
They claim that Christ IS the Father. He isn't. He is a separate person. There are three persons in the trinity. The son is a separate person from the father, co-equal and co-eternal, but entirely separate.
They claim that Christ IS the Holy Spirit. He isn't. He is a separate person from the Holy Spirit, co-equal, co-eternal, but a separate person. Each one: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate person. They do not take the place of each other. They believe in one God. But they do not believe that that one God exists in three persons. They deny the trinity. Like the J.W.'s when you deny the trinity deliberately how can you be saved? It is a vital doctrine to evangelical Christianity.
And your starting point with the J.W.'s would probably be the same, not the trinity; so what is the difference? Why is one wrong and not the other? You are inconsistent.
And some of the J.W. doctrine is much more problematic. Both can keep people from being saved. Don't be inconsistent.
But they aren't are they? They don't believe in justification of faith.
They believe that only they, Oneness are going to heaven.
And furthermore they completely deny the existence of the trinity.
We used to have Oneness on the board before they were banned. It was they that brought the issue up. And when you confront them, they will probably do the same with you--just like Muslims and J.W.'s do. The Bible says: "Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you with meekness and fear."
It is a matter of obeying the Bible and being ready to give an answer of your faith.
Alive in Christ
New Member
DHK,,,
You posted...
Yes, and those are some of the TRULY serious issues that I have ALWAYS had with the oneness folks.
No, my starting point with the J.W.'s could very well start with the Triune nature of God, since the JW's flat out DENY that Jesus is God.
That is MUCH more problematic than the Oneness folks, who acknowlege that God manifests Himself in 3 different ways. They simply misunderstand how the triune nature of God works.
They are both wrong, and I am not being inconsistant.
Its 2 different circumstances.
You posted...
Yes, and those are some of the TRULY serious issues that I have ALWAYS had with the oneness folks.
It would be more accurate to say they GROSSLY misunderstand how the Triune nature of God works.
No, my starting point with the J.W.'s could very well start with the Triune nature of God, since the JW's flat out DENY that Jesus is God.
That is MUCH more problematic than the Oneness folks, who acknowlege that God manifests Himself in 3 different ways. They simply misunderstand how the triune nature of God works.
They are both wrong, and I am not being inconsistant.
Its 2 different circumstances.