What is water referring to?

[Robert Snow]

You want me to say...

Let me repeat myself:

If this interpretation (baptism being part of our salvation experience) is correct, Paul really missed the mark when it comes to evangelizing the lost.

1Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If baptism was essential, why would Paul make light of it here?

 

[TC]

I always thought it meant physical birth.

 

[Zenas]

Let me repeat myself:

If this interpretation (baptism being part of our salvation experience) is correct, Paul really missed the mark when it comes to evangelizing the lost.

1Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If baptism was essential, why would Paul make light of it here?

He wasn't making light of it. Paul is saying that the behavior of the Corinthians had become so bad that it would be an embarrassment to have baptized them. He was also explaining that he was sent to evangelize, not to baptize. We know that Paul was one of the most gifted evangelists who ever lived and that is where he focused his efforts. It takes a great gift to evangelize, but it takes no gift at all to baptize. Therefore, he left it up to others, perhaps leaders in the local church, perhaps his travelling companions. We see an analogous situation in Acts 6 where the apostles could not be burdened with waiting tables, so the church appointed seven men (deacons) for this purpose. Taking care of the Hellenistic widows was very necessary but it was something that required lesser spiritual gifts and not something that had to be done by the apostles.

Also, Paul did not refrain from baptizing when he needed to. We know he baptized two individual Corinthians and one Corinthian household. He also baptized 12 men at Ephesus, and he probably baptized Lydia and her household and the Philippian jailer and his household.

 

[Robert Snow]

He wasn't making light of it. Paul is saying that the behavior of the Corinthians had become so bad that it would be an embarrassment to have baptized them. He was also explaining that he was sent to evangelize, not to baptize. We know that Paul was one of the most gifted evangelists who ever lived and that is where he focused his efforts. It takes a great gift to evangelize, but it takes no gift at all to baptize. Therefore, he left it up to others, perhaps leaders in the local church, perhaps his travelling companions. We see an analogous situation in Acts 6 where the apostles could not be burdened with waiting tables, so the church appointed seven men (deacons) for this purpose. Taking care of the Hellenistic widows was very necessary but it was something that required lesser spiritual gifts and not something that had to be done by the apostles.

Also, Paul did not refrain from baptizing when he needed to. We know he baptized two individual Corinthians and one Corinthian household. He also baptized 12 men at Ephesus, and he probably baptized Lydia and her household and the Philippian jailer and his household.

Rationalization gone amuck! Sorry brother, but I just don't see it in God's Word at all.

 

[quantumfaith]

Being born again is 100% spiritual. It requires nothing earthly or physical. It is all of God through His Spirit.

Water is used throughout the Bible as a symbol for purity or purification, being washed clean. But physical water is not pure. It contains all kinds of micro organisms, some very bad and can never actually purify anything, much less the spirit of man.


We cannot be born again by physical water or physical birth. We are born of the Spirit of God only. That is what Nic did not understand.

I like this Amy. I would only add what I have always believed that baptism is an act of humble obedience and "ceremoniously" identifies us as a disciple of Christ.

 

[Logos1]

My understanding of the water and the spirit

I believe Jesus is drawing on what is written in the scriptures of their day (OT to us, of course) which ties together the water and the spirit to describe the New Covenant.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

There was an association of water to ceremonially cleanse the people of Israel from their sins at the time of the coming of the Messiah. This was evidenced by the baptisms taking place by John the Baptist and further work of the disciples. Hence you could think of the water as the washing away of sins by the work of Christ upon acceptance of His salvation represented by baptism and receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is describing the new way to have the proper relationship with God under the New Covenant superseding the rituals of the Old Covenant.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

[HankD]

Hello Hank. I'm no 'Greek guy', don't know about Granville-Sharp, but I agreed with this in post #14. I believe it could read 'Except one be born of water even the Spirit'.



Wind, water, I agree are indeed common metaphors or symbols for the Spirit. Fire, on the other hand, is by far and away primarily the metaphor/symbol most commonly used for the wrath of God.



7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

A closer scrutiny of the context of Mt 3 should show that fire is NOT being used as a metaphor/symbol for the Spirit, but is in reference to WRATH. This is the prophet John the Baptist speaking to his fellow countrymen, to who he was sent.

Speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees, “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” John was referring to that wrath that was to come upon 'that generation' of Jews (“even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees” and, “the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire”).

“ ..he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire...”. And that's exactly what Christ did to that generation of Jews that He walked among and preached to. To those that received Him, He gave the Spirit. Those that rejected Him had only that certain expectation of wrath to come.

Behold then the goodness and severity of God.....Ro 11:22

Yes, perhaps I misinterpreted the metaphor in the Matthew passage.

Maybe because the Koine word for "fire" is pur which is the root of the English word purify.

Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.​

Oh, BTW, I am not a 'Greek guy' but of Italian heritage

HankD

 

[SaggyWoman]

Water Baptism has no salvific purposes other than to bring praise to the Father.