These are wonderful quotes. Every Christian should believe them. These truths are CLEARLY taught in the Word of God.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Which "camp" is really the defender of Divine Sovereignty?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
- Status
These are wonderful quotes. Every Christian should believe them. These truths are CLEARLY taught in the Word of God.
Benjamin,
Welcome back. Please stay. Its good to have at least one thinker or the other side.
Cypress,
I downloaded your file and read about 4 pages. The quotes from Calvinist that I read, I agree with. The writer that wrote the debate points is grade school level arguments. If one desires a good laugh, please read it. If one wants to know Calvinism, just read the quotes.
Convicted....
You have given some of these quotes. You seem to disagree. Lets take a look.
Yes, God indeed uses sinners to bring about his will. in the OT he says he would bring down Gog and Magog, rather PULL them down to execute judgment. right? So you should not have a problem with this one.
Yes..It was God that placed...arranged the garden into place. He PLACED or arranged it so that the tree was in the garden. Satan did not sneak in the garden, without God knowing. Could have God hindered Satan from coming to the garden? Did God have the power to stop Satan? God arranged it so that Satan came into the garden, and arranged the tree in the garden and knew that man would fall into sin.
So...God makes people sin?
No...God arranged the arena and mans will sins. (book of James)
Dan 4..
Dan 4...
Not at all. Would you rather have man in control?
I was going to respond to Willis on this, but you have taken the words right out of my... fingers.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Mercy
God will show mercy on whom He will show mercy on.
You better believe that. There was a time in my life where God was not showing me mercy at all to me a believer. I will let you know if the world is falling apart around you and God is showing you no mercy, Jesus will never turn you away when you come to Him.
Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
It is amazing to me how people use a message to bring people to the Lord to say some can't come. We all know God is sovereign and just, all men have the same hope Jesus and we are the messengers.
Leviticus 19:15
“‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.
Romans 2
God’s Righteous Judgment
1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Acts 10:
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
God will show mercy on whom He will show mercy on.
You better believe that. There was a time in my life where God was not showing me mercy at all to me a believer. I will let you know if the world is falling apart around you and God is showing you no mercy, Jesus will never turn you away when you come to Him.
Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
It is amazing to me how people use a message to bring people to the Lord to say some can't come. We all know God is sovereign and just, all men have the same hope Jesus and we are the messengers.
Leviticus 19:15
“‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.
Romans 2
God’s Righteous Judgment
1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Acts 10:
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Last edited by a moderator:
psalms109:31
Active Member
By the Spirit and life in the words of Jesus, have you not heard.
John 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
Praise God through Jesus, for the words of Spirit and life to the dead and He has made us the messengers of it. Now believe( not you have already believed trusted in Jesus) and be saved or believeth not and be condemned
Last edited by a moderator:
slave 4 Christ
New Member
Why are they so scary? Look who is in complete control.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
convicted1
Guest
Benjamin,
Welcome back. Please stay. Its good to have at least one thinker or the other side.
Cypress,
I downloaded your file and read about 4 pages. The quotes from Calvinist that I read, I agree with. The writer that wrote the debate points is grade school level arguments. If one desires a good laugh, please read it. If one wants to know Calvinism, just read the quotes.
Convicted....
You have given some of these quotes. You seem to disagree. Lets take a look.
Yes, God indeed uses sinners to bring about his will. in the OT he says he would bring down Gog and Magog, rather PULL them down to execute judgment. right? So you should not have a problem with this one.
Yes..It was God that placed...arranged the garden into place. He PLACED or arranged it so that the tree was in the garden. Satan did not sneak in the garden, without God knowing. Could have God hindered Satan from coming to the garden? Did God have the power to stop Satan? God arranged it so that Satan came into the garden, and arranged the tree in the garden and knew that man would fall into sin.
So...God makes people sin?
No...God arranged the arena and mans will sins. (book of James)
Dan 4..
Dan 4...
Not at all. Would you rather have man in control?
You DoG'ers seem to be accrediting "sin" to the wrong person. Sin comes through satan/lucifer/beelzebub(sp?)/great red dragon, etc and not God. In Isaiah 14 you can see where lucifer was cast down by God because he wanted to exhalt his throne above "the most High", and for this, he was cast down from heaven. In Genesis we see him as the serpent who beguiles Eve, and then Eve then offers the fruit to Adam, and he eats. This came about by the works of Satan, and not God. All sin is of the devil.
Lucifer was in heaven, one of the higher ranking ones, an Archangel, I believe(not for sure on this exactly, btw), and iniquity was found in him. It wasn't placed in him by God either. So the "lineage" of sin is traced back to Satan, and not through God. To even state that God indirectly, yet alone directly, had/has anything to do with sin is out and out disgraceful. God is a righteous God, and to be righteous He has to be sinless, and He is. He even had to forsake His only Son, turn His back on Him, if you will, because sin was placed upon Jesus, making Him a symbol of sin, yet no sin was found in Him. If God turned His back on His only begotten Son because of His sin sacrifice, it's a shame that ANYONE would suggest that God indirectly has/had anything to do with sin. Sin abounds because of Satan, and not God!!!! He allows sin to happen for His reasons, and I don't know why. But He doesn't have one thing to do with it.
i am I am's!!
Willis
convicted1
Guest
Please read post #27
convicted1
Guest
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I worship the God of all the scripture, including this one.
Yep, I agree.
Determining to accomplish his purposes despite the sinful choices of mankind, yes. Determining the sin of man, I don't think so.
And I seriously question the person who believes that God determined the rape, torture and murder of a 5 year old...as would just about any rational thinking person that is not looking through their dogmatic lenses.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Maybe in your world, but if you study history you will see that this pendulum swings different directions at different times and circumstances.
Oh, condescension. Is that the debate tactic of school yard bullies? Enough said.
As a wise friend once stated, "An analogy need not be similar in every respect, or any respect you arbitrarily decide it should be similar in. An analogy is by its very nature, not exactly the same in every facet as the point being made. An apple might be a good analogy for explaining the spherical nature of the Earth, but only a moron would try to suggest the analogy goes beyond - or is intended to go beyond - one single respect, that being the general spherical shape of an apple."
So, when someone uses the analogy of an apple/earth around you, I suppose you would use condescension and then say something you think is really profound like: "The earth produced the apple, right?"; and think you have somehow actually addressed the point being made by the analogy, but you have not.
Which form of Calvinism?
Lapsarianism
Four-point Calvinism
Hyper-Calvinism
Neo-orthodoxy
Neo-Calvinism
Plus, I wasn't attempting to explain any form of Calvinism with that statement. I was making an accusation based upon the actual claims of Calvinists on this board, such as, "God determines all things (including the sinful choices of man)." Thus, the correct response would be for you to explain how these types of claims from Calvinists "doesn't impugn the holiness of God by making him the ultimate cause of sin," ...but that may be too much to ask.
God is not the author of sin, but it was his will that sin exist.
Now answer this question. How did Satan come to sin?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
How does a corpse rebel and resist, yet you have no problem with that response?
Another stupid topic designed around creating competition in the two Theological camps.... IE another Urinating Contest.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
A corpse does not.
The physical body is not a corpse. The spirit is that part of man that can relate to God. It is dead. It does not rebel and resist.
It is the NATURAL MAN that rebels and resists.
It is the CARNAL mind that is enmity with God.
The spirit does nothing before regeneration.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Does man's soul content with God? Is God just punishing the man's physical body in hell or isn't his soul involved. You seem to be limiting man's response to a physical one, when clearly other aspects are in play. Please expound.
convicted1
Guest
I completely agree with the first part of this statement, but I am not for sure on the second part of it. To say "It's His will for sin to exist" makes Him an indirect cause of sin, and that's completely false. God knows that sin abounds on earth, and if He wanted to, He could stop that thisquick, but He will put a stop to sinning when He tells His son to come and take us home!! By God knowing that sin abounds, I believe He has put the responsibilty of choice on us; choose Him and live, or choose satan and die. The the responsibilty is upon us after He calls us.
Well now, let's see......
Isa. 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Pro. 16:17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.
18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall
Well, according to these passages of scriptures I have given to you, Satan sinned due to his pride. He saw that he was beautiful, and also had a "following" of angels, because a 1/3 of them fell with him. His pride caused him to sin before God Almighty, and even wanted to be higher than Him. I preached this once:"Satan didn't want to take God's place, but rather, he wanted God beneath him, as one of his servants." That way God would have given reverence to Satan, and not Himself. This is what cause Satan/Lucifer to sin.....his pride!! Nowhere does it say God put it(sin) in him, but Lucifer CHOSE to sin, and those that sin now, sin after him. He is our "thorn in the flesh", that we have to contend with. He is why we must "crucify our flesh daily", he is why we have to ask God to forgive our sins we commit, that are not pleasing unto him. Satan, and Satan alone, is who causes us to sin. When we were sinners, we followed after him, and enjoyed it. When God saves us, He saves our soul, but the flesh has to fight with him(Satan). We then have a warfare and with God in the battle for us, we win every time!! :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :wavey:
i am I am's!!
Willis
Sin could not exist unless God allowed it to. God had to actively remove his goodness for sin to be able to exist. God could have built the universe so that Adam would never have chosen to sin- but he didn't. The logical implication is that God willed for sin to exist. If he did not will for it to exist it could NOT have existed.
This is what Scripture teaches. "He is before all things and by him all things consist."
"For of him and through him and to him are all things."
Either God is and always has been in complete control of everything or he is not.
Either EVERYTHING exists of him and through him and to him or it does not.
The Bible is clear- it does.
I agree with all of this. None of it has anything to do with God willing that evil exist.
- Status