Romans 2:25-29

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
I never argue that the UNSAVED are justified by "persevering in not keeping the commandments".

NEITHER have I ever argued that a SAVED person who loses salvation can THEN return to being saved by "keeping the commandments as a lost person".

The simple fact of the matter is that the stated motive is "love" and the contextual identity of those in possession of that motive are already saved persons. Hence, they are not keeping commandments in order to be justified, saved or entrance into heaven.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments."

Thus the saved saints of Matt 7 and Rom 2:7 are more than happy to READ the word of God in Romans 2 and be warned and motivated by it AS IT speaks to "Justified" And "on the day when according to My Gospel God WILL judge"

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The New Birth promise of Heb 8 "The Law written on the heart" is being identified in that Romans 2 section above. Impossible to miss for the unbiased objective Bible student.


In Romans 2 Paul does NOT argue "all Jews are lost" rather he argues that every man among the Jews and the Gentiles (BOTH groups) will go to heaven if the fruits show the born-again New Covenant result of a good tree, and every man among BOTH Jews and gentiles that shows the result of bad fruit will be found to be a bad tree - and will in the end - to to hell based on an unbiased impartial law regarding the fruit of the good tree vs the bad tree.

A principle Christ himself identifies in Matt 7.

WAlter - Out of one side of your mouth you admit that works do not justify anyone but out of the other side of your mouth works do justify saved people.

Hint: I did not write Romans 2.

Walter said -
Instead Paul teaches that saved person walk just as they received but Bob teaches we walk differently than how we received (Col. 2:6). Paul teaches that works cannot justify the lost (Rom. 7:7-11) nor sanctify the saved (Rom. 7:14-25) but Bob denies this.

On the contrary - I argue that the Romans 8 SOLUTION to the Romans 7 problem is "real"

I argue that the walk of the saved person is based on the justification and saved life that results from salvation found in Rom 5:1.

You keep trying to divide one part of the Bible against another. I accept both.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, do you beleive at the point of physical death the true beiever "SHALL NEVER DIE"?

Now, verse 23-25 have to do with PHYSICAL DEATH as it is expressly directed at "THY BROTHER" who was already in the tomb for four days. In verse 25 the phrase "though he were dead" has refernce to PHYSICAL DEATH as "yet shall he live" has reference to the future resurrection of the body from PHYSICAL DEATH.

However, verse 26 has to do with a person PHYSICALLY ALIVE "whosoever liveth and believeth in me"! It is this PHYSICALLY ALIVE BELIEVER that Jesus says "SHALL NEVER DIE." Bob, "BELIEVETH THOU THIS"???

I believe that the one who is alive AND believes in Christ will never die even though the body may indeed die.

But I do NOT believe that the one who IS alive and does NOT believe in Christ will "go to heaven anyway because at one time he USED to believe".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments."

Thus the saved saints of Matt 7 and Rom 2:7 are more than happy to READ the word of God in Romans 2 and be warned and motivated by it AS IT speaks to "Justified" And "on the day when according to My Gospel God WILL judge"

You treat the scriptures just like a JW or jumping Joe. You cannot deal with a text in its context, you must JUMP to other contexts dealing with other subjects and make a text fit your theory. In John 14 Jesus is not speaking to lost people but to saved people. Hence, he is not providing a motive for salvation but a motive of love as saved people. Simple enough, but when you have an agenda, even the simple things become tough don't they Bob???

Hint: I did not write Romans 2.

Hint: you don't understand it either. You distort it to mean something it neither says nor suggests.

On the contrary - I argue that the Romans 8 SOLUTION to the Romans 7 propblem is "real"

I argue that the walk of the saved person is based on the justification and saved life that results from salvation found in Rom 5:1.

You are attempting to change the subject. The Christian walks (Rom. 8) just as he received justification (Rom. 3:24-5:1) - by faith "without works" (Rom. 4:5-6).

The "solution" to Romans 7 is not the works of the law as that is the very thing Romans 7 is condemning. The solution is sanctification by faith as much as justification is by faith and both WITHOUT THE WORKS OF THE LAW. Both are without personal assistance of man but accomplished by faith in the promise and power of God alone!!!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Circling back Nonsense?

The scriptures teach that justification by faith is not only a completed irreversable action at the point of initial faith in the gospel (Jn. 5:24) but is "without works" especially without the works of the Law (Rom. 3:27-28; 4:5-6; 12-16). The perfect tense demands it is a completed action and the words "without works" demands it is a completed action that stands alone.

However, Bob denies that justification is a completed action without works but asserts that it is merely the initial beginning of justification by the works of the law that concludes at judgment. He chooses to identify the post-intial gospel salvation as "perseverance of the saints" and further asserts that perseverance of the saints is law keeping which without there can be no final justification after the resurrection.

In essence he rejects the whole Biblical doctrine of justification by faith WITHOUT WORKS (Rom. 4:5-6) but assserts instead a progressive justification by works of the Law that begins with faith in the gospel and concludes with justification at the throne of God.

He has to lower the standard of the righteousness of the Law so that prospect beleivers can keep the law sufficient to be justified by it and therefore must redefine sin to something other than complete violation of every aspect of the Law (James 2:10).

In essence, he has NEVER "repented of dead works" but merely redefines "dead works" as Spirit enabled obedience to the Law necessary to be approved on judgement day for entrance into heaven. He confuses progressive sanctification by the Spirit of God for justification by the Son of God.

 

[BobRyan]

God said

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

But Walter claims that Bob said -

The scriptures teach that justification by faith is not only a completed irreversable action at the point of initial faith in the gospel (Jn. 5:24) but is "without works" especially without the works of the Law (Rom. 3:27-28; 4:5-6; 12-16). The perfect tense demands it is a completed action and the words "without works" demands it is a completed action that stands alone.

However, Bob denies that justification is a completed action without works but asserts that it is merely the initial beginning of justification by the works of the law that concludes at judgment. He chooses to identify the post-intial gospel salvation as "perseverance of the saints" and further asserts that perseverance of the saints is law keeping which without there can be no final justification after the resurrection.

.

Blaming ME for what Walter reads in Romans 2 is not as compelling an argument as I would have hoped for. It would be better to do the Bible study to work out the problem -- rather than slice and dice scripture and pretend that I wrote Romans 2!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

God said

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Paul says NOTHING different here than what he says in Galatians 3:10 or what James says in James 2:10.

Can't you see that Romans 2:13 is speaking about JUSTIFICATION UNDER LAW and what the LAW requires to be justified by its standard rather than justification by faith??????????????????? Isn't the basis for this justification by law "according to works" (v. 6) rather than "according to faith"???????????????

So simple, so clear, so easy and yet you want to force this text to read justification "according to faith" rather than what it clearly states is justification "according to works" of the Law! You don't care what it says, you onlly care what you want it to say!

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Again, this is justification under law by ones works. Paul provides the basis for judging the works of Gentiles since they were not given the Mosaic Law. They were given the same moral law written on conscience and that is the basis which God will judge all Gentiles who come before him "according to his works".

The gospel is brought in as the ultimate standard for JUDGMENT not salvation because the gospel reveals the RIGHTEOUSENSSS OF GOD in the person and works of Jesus Christ which is the ULTIMATE STANDARD to measure all Jews and all Gentiles who come "according to his works."


So simple, so clear, so evident that only a spiritually blind man can't see it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In Romans 2:17-25 Paul has proven there are no Jews who keep the Law. There is not one positive indication that any keep the law but all have violated it.

In Romans 2:25-29 Paul methodically proves that circumcision does not make the Jew better than the Gentile in the day of judgment.

1. Only if the Jew can persevere in keeping every point of the Law - which is impossible - does circumcision profit him on the day of judgement. - v. 25

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.


2. Although the Gentile has not been given the law of circumcision and only the moral law given the Gentile is written upon his conscience, if he could keep that law in every point - which is impossible - then his uncircumcision would be regarded as circumcision. Paul's point is that circumcision does not profit either Jew or Gentile as it is the fulfillment of the law given to each that really justifies them before God.


26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

3. Hence, circumcision profits NOBODY in the day of judgement because the Jew cannot keep the law any better than the Gentile - Rom. 3:1

Pretty simple and straight forward "IF" supposition that no Jew and Gentile ever have done or can do just as Romans 3:9 CONCLUDES

 

[BobRyan]

"IF We confess our sins He is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins" is not a funny way of saying "but of course nobody will ever confess sin".

Obviously

Rom 10:9 "IF you confess with your mouth and believe" is not a funny kinda way of Bible writers claiming "nobody will confess or believe".

Obviously.

Even so - Romans 2 --- is true!

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The New Birth promise of Heb 8 "The Law written on the heart" is being identified in that Romans 2 section above. Impossible to miss for the unbiased objective Bible student.


In Romans 2 Paul does NOT argue "all Jews are lost" rather he argues that every man among the Jews and the Gentiles (BOTH groups) will go to heaven if the fruits show the born-again New Covenant result of a good tree, and every man among BOTH Jews and gentiles that shows the result of bad fruit will be found to be a bad tree - and will in the end - to to hell based on an unbiased impartial law regarding the fruit of the good tree vs the bad tree.

A principle Christ himself identifies in Matt 7.

 

[Dr. Walter]

"IF We confess our sins He is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins" is not a funny way of saying "but of course nobody will ever confess sin".

Obviously

Rom 10:9 "IF you confess with your mouth and believe" is not a funny kinda way of Bible writers claiming "nobody will confess or believe".

You are shooting yourself in your own foot and don't even realize it! The "if" is conditional in both cases. Likewise in Romans 2:28-29, "IF" a gentile or Jew can "according to his works" (v. 6) "fulfill the law" (v. 27) as defined by the law (vv. 12-13, ) then of course the law justifies them worthy of eternal life as they are righteous within and without!

However, Bob, there is no such man on planet earth that can "fulfil the law" (v. 27) and therefore there is no such man on planet earth that is righteous within and without according to the demands of the Law!

All of Romans 2 concerns righteousness by definition of the Law of God and justification under law "according to....works." Paul is dealing with the fools of this world who actually believe they can be justified "according to his works" UNDER LAW! This is the very doctrine you are embracing and teaching and so you fit among those described in Romans 2.

 

[Dr. Walter]

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Bob is so intent on making Romans 2 include genuinely saved persons that he fails to see the obvious.

What is the just basis for God to judge the gentile "according to his works"? We know what is the basis for God to judge the Jew (vv. 12-13) but what is the just basis for God to judge the Gentile "according to his works"? Verse 14-15 define the just basis upon which God can justly judge the Gentile "according to his works."

The Gentile was not given the Law of Moses and so God cannot justly judge the Gentile "according to his works" by the Law of Moses. Verse 14 begins by stating this fact "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law" of Moses!

What standard do they have then? What basis do they have to discern right from wrong and act accordingly? The short answer is God has given them a "conscience" which God has designed to correspond to the moral law given to Moses. God has written the moral law upon the conscience of the Gentile thus providing a just basis for God to judge the Gentile "according to his works" in keeping with the judgements pronounced by his own conscience.

Now, the long answer is found in a step by step logical development by Paul in verses 14-15. First, Paul establishes the fact that the Gentiles have not been given the Mosaic Law

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law"

Next, he argues that even so, there is a natural process at work within the Gentile that corresponds exactly to how the law of Moses operates upon the Jew. This natural process has to do with revealing right and wrong just as the Law of Moses reveals right and wrong and therefore this natural process provides the basis for God to judge the Gentile "according to his works."

"do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

However, Paul has not defined what this natural process is! He has only defined how it corresponds with the Law given to the Jew and that it provides the same function as the Law of Moses for the Gentile. In the next verse he defines what this natural proceess is:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Note the words "the work of the law"! The "work of the" Mosaic law was to define right and wrong. The Gentile "shew the work of the law written in THEIR hearts" by what they do and don't do. That is what verse 14 says - They "DO by nature the things written in the law."

Now, Bob wants to take verse 15 and demand it refers to regenerate Gentiles when in fact it refers to EVERY GENTILE who do not have the Mosaic Law as the just basis to judge them "according to his works" but do have the same function as the moral law working within their beings and written upon their hearts in what we call the "conscience." The conscience of the Gentile provides the just basis for judging the gentile "according to his works" as he responds to the condemning or approving function of the conscience. God can judge the Gentile for violating his conscience.

The Jew is proved to be a sinner because he violates ONE POINT of the Law of God. The Gentile is proved to be a sinner when he violates ONE POINT of the law written upon his conscience. Hence, God can justly condemn the Gentile as a sinner as he can the Jew.

Finally, verse 16 provides an additional standard to judge "every man according to his works" whether under Mosaic Law or law of Conscience. The gospel reveals the true standard of the Law in the works of Jesus Christ. The works of the Jew and the works of the Gentile must measure up to the works of Jesus Christ to escape the judgement of God. His righteous works is inclusive of the secrets of the heart (motives) as well as the words and actions:

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Now again, Bob wants to interpret verse 16 to prove that saved gentiles and Jews are being spoken about becuase of the use of the term "gospel" when in fact, the gospel is brought into this picture to "JUDGE" not to save anyone in the day of judgement. It is too late to be saved in the day of judgement.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Romans 2 deals with lost people only

Romans 1:18-31 deals with lost people only
Romans 2:1-5 deals with lost people only

Bob, denies that Romans 2:1-5 deals with lost people only and quotes verse 4 as proof:

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

However, is this a reference to the saved or to lost people who reject the goodness of God? The answer is found in the pronoun "thee"! The pronoun "thee" has for its antecedent the very same person described in verses 1-3:

1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

The nearest grammatical antecedent for "thee" in verse 5 is "O man" in verse 4 who is the hypocrit who actually believes he will escape the judgement of God.

Moreover, the pronoun "thee" continues into verse 5:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Hence, it is quite easy to prove that Romans 2:1-5 deals with LOST men ONLY and in particular the self-righteous lost man that believes he will escape the judgement of God because he is BETTER THAN THOU.

Now, Bob thinks that verses 6-11 describe saved and lost people. However, Paul is merely describing the criteria and consequences of the judgement that the BETTERN THAN THOU man in verses 1-5 thinks he will escape "according to his works."

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

This is strictly a consideration based purely "according to .....works" not according to faith, or salvation, or grace, or mercy. No, this is viewing the judgement of God purely from "works" and purely under the standard of "Law" (vv. 12-13) without regard to anything other than the merits of that "person" (v. 11). The merits of Christ have no place in this judgement. The grace or mercy of God has not place in this judgment. Justificaton by faith has no place in this judgement. This is a judgement strictly by works under the Law according to personal merits.

The criteria and consequences for personal merits are strictly and explicitly stated:



7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

This not the only place in scripture where the criteria for approval under law in order to merit eternal life is stated.

"who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" - v. 7

"for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." - Gal. 3:10

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." - James 2:10

Indeed, the very text goes on to say:

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Again, there is no place here for Christ's merits or mercy, or the grace of God or justification by faith "without works." This is strictly dealing with personal merits based upon the unflinching demands of God's Law.

Paul's point is simple. Mr. Hyprocrit if you believe you will escape the judgement of God "according to...works" then here is the criteria that will be demanded by the Law of God in regard to YOUR OWN PERSONAL MERITS!

There are no justified by faith people in this text. There are none saved by grace in this text. There are not who according to God's mercy are saved in this text (Tit. 3:5). This is dealing with lost people who believe just like the Jew and just like SDA people that they can escape the judgement of God "according to...works" of the law.

 

[BobRyan]

1. I have stated (about a zillion times) that Rom 1:1-17 deals with saved saints and 1:18-32 with the lost.

I have stated that in the same way Romans 2 ALSO deals with both the lost and the saved -- and so also does Romans 3.

2. In the case of Romans 2 - we see interleaving of the lost-vs-saved compared side-by-side.

3. The Call to Gospel repentance in Rom 2:4 is "proof" that the entire chapter is "in the context" of the same Rom 1:17 gospel that starts out the book of Romans.

4. Instead of arguing "WE All go to hell because this is not a discussion of how the gospel can change lives" in Romans 2 -- what you have is --

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
=================end quote

That is a case of God showing that people are not saved "because they are Jew" - but rather because they respond to the Rom 2:4 call to repentance and experience the New Covenant - benefit of the changed heart (vs 13-16).


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Regarding the Gospel judgment that is future - mentioned in Rom 2, we SEE the "good news" of the Judgment in Dan 7:22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints". And in Dan 7 the GOOD NEWS of the judgment is seen "in the text" because it terminates the persecution of the saints and precipitates the 2nd coming. (Good News indeed!)

Paul repeats this doctrine in his letter to Corinth "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of God to given an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good OR evil" 2Cor 5:10

The "Changed heart" of Rom 2:14-16 is again the emphasis of the chapter near the end .

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The repeated theme is that salvation is across the lines - of both Jew and Gentile.

It is not based on culture or nationality, nor even arbitrary selection.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

1. I have stated (about a zillion times) that Rom 1:1-17 deals with saved saints and 1:18-32 with the lost.

I have stated that in the same way Romans 2 ALSO deals with both the lost and the saved -- and so also does Romans 3.

2. In the case of Romans 2 - we see interleaving of the lost-vs-saved compared side-by-side.

3. The Call to Gospel repentance in Rom 2:4 is "proof" that the entire chapter is "in the context" of the same Rom 1:17 gospel that starts out the book of Romans.

4. Instead of arguing "WE All go to hell because this is not a discussion of how the gospel can change lives" in Romans 2 -- what you have is --

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
=================end quote

That is a case of God showing that people are not saved "because they are Jew" - but rather because they respond to the Rom 2:4 call to repentance and experience the New Covenant - benefit of the changed heart (vs 13-16).


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Regarding the Gospel judgment that is future - mentioned in Rom 2, we SEE the "good news" of the Judgment in Dan 7:22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints". And in Dan 7 the GOOD NEWS of the judgment is seen "in the text" because it terminates the persecution of the saints and precipitates the 2nd coming. (Good News indeed!)

Paul repeats this doctrine in his letter to Corinth "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of God to given an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good OR evil" 2Cor 5:10

The "Changed heart" of Rom 2:14-16 is again the emphasis of the chapter near the end .



The repeated theme is that salvation is across the lines - of both Jew and Gentile.

It is not based on culture or nationality, nor even arbitrary selection.


in Christ,

Bob

I have answered this hogwash completely on the other line. No sense repeating it here.

 

[Dr. Walter]

1. I have stated (about a zillion times) that Rom 1:1-17 deals with saved saints and 1:18-32 with the lost.

I have stated that in the same way Romans 2 ALSO deals with both the lost and the saved -- and so also does Romans 3.

2. In the case of Romans 2 - we see interleaving of the lost-vs-saved compared side-by-side.

3. The Call to Gospel repentance in Rom 2:4 is "proof" that the entire chapter is "in the context" of the same Rom 1:17 gospel that starts out the book of Romans.

4. Instead of arguing "WE All go to hell because this is not a discussion of how the gospel can change lives" in Romans 2 -- what you have is --

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
=================end quote

That is a case of God showing that people are not saved "because they are Jew" - but rather because they respond to the Rom 2:4 call to repentance and experience the New Covenant - benefit of the changed heart (vs 13-16).


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Regarding the Gospel judgment that is future - mentioned in Rom 2, we SEE the "good news" of the Judgment in Dan 7:22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints". And in Dan 7 the GOOD NEWS of the judgment is seen "in the text" because it terminates the persecution of the saints and precipitates the 2nd coming. (Good News indeed!)

Paul repeats this doctrine in his letter to Corinth "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of God to given an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good OR evil" 2Cor 5:10

The "Changed heart" of Rom 2:14-16 is again the emphasis of the chapter near the end .



The repeated theme is that salvation is across the lines - of both Jew and Gentile.

It is not based on culture or nationality, nor even arbitrary selection.


in Christ,

Bob

1. There are no saved people in Romans 2:1-5. The pronoun in verse 4 has it nearest antecedent with the person being described in verses 1-3 and verse 5 who receive damnation rather than justification "according to his works." These are those who believe that "according to his works" they will escape the judgement of God and who are the subjects being addressed by Paul in Romans 2:6-3:9.

2. There are no saved people in Romans 2:6 simply because the whole basis of judgment here is not "according to" grace, faith, mercy but strictly "according to his works" and "according to" strict law (vv. 12-13). This text is the first verse in response to the persons introduced in verse 1-5 who believe they can escape the judgement of God based upon some personal superiority over others.

3. There are no saved people in Romans 2:7-13 but rather the strict criteria and consequences according to law to those who come to God strictly by "works" and under law. Nothing is stated in verse 7 or verse 9 to indicate the presence of any justified by faith because nothing is stated that is different than what is stated in Galatians 3:10 or James 2:10. There are no salvation designations (child of God, believers, elect, etc.) but only generic designations "to them" "every soul" "every man" etc., which are descriptives of all who believe they can escape the judgement of God "according to his works."

4. There are no saved people in Romans 2:14-15 but rather the revealed standard by which the gentiles can be judged "according to his works" justly since the gentiles were not given the law of Moses. Applying verse 15 to saved people denies any just basis to judge lost gentiles.

5. There are no saved people in Romans 2:16 but the "gospel" is only included at this point as the gospel reveals the righteousness of God "according to his works" or the works of Jesus Christ as the ultimate standard to judge all who come by law to be judged "according to his works" and this text has to do with judgement not salvation.

6. There are no saved people in Romans 2:17-24 and this is proved by the pronouns in verses 23-24 as they grammatically refer back to those in verses 17-22 as lost law keeping Jews who do not keep the law.

7. There are no saved people in Romans 2:25-29 as the subject is the profitability of circumcision in the day of judgement for the Jew over the Gentile and the only condition that is set forth for such profit is if the circumcised keep all other points of the law which Romans 3:1 presumes to be impossible and therefore without profit as an edge for the Jew over the gentile in the day of judgement. Likewise, the Gentile has no more edge over the Jew in the day of judgement unless he too can fulfil all points of the law he is under and "if" that were possible then his uncircumcision would be regarded the same as circumcision as circumcision is the sign of keeping all points of the law.

 

[BobRyan]

God said --

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

And while I can appreciate the traditions of some who might "Need" that text above to edit out the statements of fact about the saints listed above getting eternal life -- yet the text remains unchanged!

Walter said
3. There are no saved people in Romans 2:7-13

Your argument is with the text.

Walter said
but rather the strict criteria and consequences according to law to those who come to God strictly by "works" and under law. Nothing is stated in verse 7 or verse 9 to indicate the presence of any justified by faith because nothing is stated that is different than what is stated in Galatians 3:10 or James 2:10. There are no salvation designations (child of God, believers, elect, etc.) but only generic designations "to them" "every soul" "every man" etc., which are descriptives of all who believe they can escape the judgement of God "according to his works."

The bend-and-wrench of the text you attempt results in the nonsensical "all who believe they excape the judgment of god - get eternal life" since the text that says they "get eternal life" is the one you want to bend so that it is made to apply to the lost who think they can "escape the judgment of god".

Your argument (such as it is ) is with the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

You have not even touched my arguments. Verses 1-5 there are no saints. Verses 6-11 there is no grace, no justification by faith, no saints, no children of God, no elect, only the criteria and consequences stated for "EVERY SOUL" who comes before God on the basis of LAW by their own works.

My position stands and your interpretation reads into the text what is simply not there.

And while I can appreciate the traditions of some who might "Need" that text above to edit out the statements of fact about the saints listed above getting eternal life -- yet the text remains unchanged!



Your argument is with the text.




The bend-and-wrench of the text you attempt results in the nonsensical "all who believe they excape the judgment of god - get eternal life" since the text that says they "get eternal life" is the one you want to bend so that it is made to apply to the lost who think they can "escape the judgment of god".

Your argument (such as it is ) is with the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

No saints in Romans 2:1-5

1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


There are no saints in this text! Bob believes that verse 4 and "thou" refers to the saved. However, the pronoun "thou" has for its nearest antecedent "O man" being described in verse 3 which is the same kind of person being described in verses 1-3. What kind of man is that?

1. The hypocrit - v. 1
2. The one the judgement of God is against - v. 2
3. The hypocrit who thinks he will escape the judgement of God - v. 3

Moreover, the pronoun "thou" in verse 4 is the one being described also in verse 5! What kind of man is that?

1. The one with a hard and impenitent heart - v. 5a
2. The one treasuring up wrath against himself - v. 5b

CONCLUSION: There is no saved persons spoken of in verses 1-5

 

[Dr. Walter]

No saints in Romans 2:6-13

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


1. What kind of men has verses 1-5 been talking about?

a. Hypocrits
b. Those who think they will escape the judgement of God
c. Those who are treasuring up wrath against themselves
d. Those against whom the wrath of God will be revealed on Judgement day
e. Those whom the judgement of God will be RIGHTEOUS toward:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

It is this introduction that God's judgement will be revealed as "RIGHTOUS" against self-righteous Hypocrits that forms the foundation for verses 6-13.

Paul's aim is to demonstrate that the judgement and wrath against hypocrits on the day of judgement will be JUST and FAIR due to the following considerations:

1. It will be according to his works - vv. 6-10
2. It will be under God's Law according to its revelation to every man - vv. 11-13

Under law good works will receive good consequences - vv. 7, 10
Under law bad works will receive bad consequences - vv. 8-9.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


Note the GENERIC and NONE SALVATION tags of the subjects "to them" "every soul" and "every man" "to the Jew" "to the Gentile."

Paul does not use common SALVATION tags in contrast to common DAMNATION tags such as "sheep" versus "goat" or "saint" versus "sinner" or "believer" versus "unbeliever" or "saved" versus "lost" or "godly" versus "ungodly."

Paul simply sets forth the CRITERIA of the Law to receive the appropriate CONSEQUENCES of the law to demonstrate the justness of God's law "according to his works."

Not only is there no common Pauline Salvation versus Damnation tags used but in Paul discussion with the Law in verses 11-13 there is no reference to any other consequence "under law" then DAMNATION. Salvation is not even a consideration under law in verses 11-12:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

No mention of salvation "by the law" - ZERO - ZILCH because the introductory subjects who think they can escape the judgement of God are hypocrits and this is judgement "according to...works" "BY THE LAW"

Bob imagines that verse 13 speaks about the saved. However, verse 13 simply reinforces verses 11-12 concerning damnation to all whose works are judged "by the law" as the law only justifies those who keep the law of God.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.[/COLOR]

This verse does not declare anyone accomplished this standard! Bob is trying to force this text to be a declaration that some accomplished this standard when this text only defines what must be accomplished in order for the law to justify a person "according to his works." There is a big difference between DECLARING and DEFINING! There is no declaration here that anyone accomplished that demand but only what the law DEFINES as worthy to be justified by works under law.

Bob imagines that the Law's standard of "doing" it "according to his works" has changed from how James defines it in James 2:10. Bob imagines that the law's standard of "doing" it "according to his works" has changed from how Paul defines it in Galatians 3:10-11. Bob imagines that this text first declares some to have accomplished this standard and then imagines that the Law's standard for "doing" it in order to be "justified by the law" has changed.

 

[BobRyan]

The Saints of Romans 2 get Eternal Life

1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


There are no saints in this text!

If we try to "Wash out" the entire text of Romans 2 simply because the Rom 2:1-5 section deals with the wicked then we would have to wash out all of the saints of Romans 1:1-17 because the Rom 1:18-32 section deals with the wicked. Those calls to Bible revisionism simply do not work!

The saints of Romans 2 get "immortality and eternal life"

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

I have repeatedly stated that we have BOTH the lost AND the saved in Romans 2 AND in Romans 2.

You keep arguing that if Romans 2 addresses anyone who is not saved then we can freely ignore all of the examples of the saved saints of Romans 2.

That is no way to justify the eisegesis your wrench of Romans 2 requires.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Under law good works will receive good consequences - vv. 7, 10
Under law bad works will receive bad consequences - vv. 8-9.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


...
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.[/COLOR]

This verse does not declare anyone accomplished this standard!

There is no Gospel "justification" needed by those who have no sin.

The Romans 2:4 context is the Gospel call to repentance.

The Romans 2:4-7 context is a contrast between those who respond to that call and those who reject it.

The Romans 2:13 context for Gospel justification is specific to the Rom 2:13-16 Gospel Judgment to come.

The Romans 2:14-16 context for the Law on the heart - is specific to the Rom 2:26-29 work of the Holy Spirit - circumcising the heart which happens under the Heb 8 "New Covenant" where the Law of God is written on the heart.

in Christ,

Bob