Romans 2:25-29

[Dr. Walter]

If we try to "Wash out" the entire text of Romans 2 simply because the Rom 2:1-5 section deals with the wicked then we would have to wash out all of the saints of Romans 1:1-17 because the Rom 1:18-32 section deals with the wicked.

Dear Reader this is the first time that Bob has admitted he was wrong about Romans 2:1-5. In every single previous discussion he has demanded that verse 4 proves there is a saint being referrenced in this text. Finally, he admits he is wrong. Step one toward recovery - admission of error!!!

The saints of Romans 2 get "immortality and eternal life"

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Paul simply sets forth the criteria "according to....works" under law to receive eternal life! This text does not apply it to anyone in specific as the generic terms prove.

If I were talking to a group of boys and set forth the rules to obtain acceptance or rejection based upon qualifications I would not be saying anyone in that group obtained either but just declaring the criteria and consequences for anyone who attempting to do it. That is all that Paul is doing, setting forth the criteria and consequences for obtaining justification or condemnation UNDER LAW by works!

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is no Gospel "justification" needed by those who have no sin.

Exactly, and that is why this context is about LOST people who THINK they can be justified by their works because no saved person THINKS like that becuase they have accepted justification by THE WORKS OF CHRIST IN THEIR BEHALF and would not even THINK nonsense like those in this context!!!! The Justified by grace have NO SIN before God "in Christ."

The Romans 2:4 context is the Gospel call to repentance.

Finally! That is better stated Bob but as verse 5 clearly shows NONE that Paul is describing in verse 4 repent. Again, LOST people who THINK they will escape the judgement of God (v. 3) "according to his works."

The Romans 2:4-7 context is a contrast between those who respond to that call and those who reject it.

Hogwash! It is merely setting forth unto the UNREPENTANT SELF-RIGHTOUS people just described in verses 1-5 what the law requires "according to...works" (v. 6) to obtain justification for eternal life and what results in condemnation "according to...works" under Law. He simply sets forth the criteria and consequences for those SELF-RIGHTOUS Hypocrits THINKING They will escape judgement by their works.

This is no different than having a bunch of unqualified boys come up to me as a coach thinking they are qualified to be on the team. I simply set forth the criteria for acceptance and rejection without concluding anyone has been accepted or rejected.

The Romans 2:13 context for Gospel justification is specific to the Rom 2:13-16 Gospel Judgment to come.

You pervert the word of God by turning the word "judgment" into justifcation! This is not a context of gospel justification as verses 11-13 have not one word about the gospel being the standard but THE LAW. verses 14-15 have not one word about the gospel but the law of conscience that renders the Gentile without excuse on judgement day. The gospel reveals "the righteousness of God" in the Person and works of Christ and this is the ultimate standard to judge all men "according to his works" on judgement day. Your works must measure up to the SINLESSNESS of Christ's Person and works to be justified "according to...works."

 

[WestminsterMan]

Yet Romans 5:1 states quite clearly that we are justified by faith (faith plus nothing) meaning faith alone. snip...

I would just like to point out here that the part of your response "(faith plus nothing)" is not found in Romans 5:1.
Just my 2c...
WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

I would just like to point out here that the part of your response "(faith plus nothing)" is not found in Romans 5:1.
Just my 2c...
WM

Oh yes it is! Paul says that they have been "justified by faith" not by "faith and works"! Just "faith" alone. This is the conclusion of the whole argument about justification by faith "without works" (Rom. 3:28; 4:5-6). The whole Romans 4:1-25 is methodically a denial of justification inclusive of works but by faith ALONE. The very introduction of this argument in Romans 3:27 is to repudiate justification by anything that contains the principle or law of works and thus "without works" (Rom. 3:28).

 

[WestminsterMan]

Oh yes it is! Paul says that they have been "justified by faith" not by "faith and works"! Just "faith" alone. This is the conclusion of the whole argument about justification by faith "without works" (Rom. 3:28; 4:5-6). The whole Romans 4:1-25 is methodically a denial of justification inclusive of works but by faith ALONE. The very introduction of this argument in Romans 3:27 is to repudiate justification by anything that contains the principle or law of works and thus "without works" (Rom. 3:28).

Well, these verses only exclude works under the Mosaic Law and they do not exclude everything else - nor do they exclude the works which God has stored up for us. I would point you (naturally) to James - the only place in scripture where faith alone is mentioned and that would be in opposition to faith alone. I would further point you to virtually every verse dealing with judgement to see that works are indeed part of the equation. If you ignore these then you have scriipture contradicting itself. In my opinion, faith alone is a product of man and not scripture. You'll need to ignore much of scripture in order to come to a faith alone position. (I.e. Faith, grace, love, etc.)

Peace!
WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well, these verses only exclude works under the Mosaic Law and they do not exclude everything else

You are simply wrong! Romans 3:27 deals with "works" and "faith" as PRINCIPLES or as "law" in regard to including or excluding boasting. It does not deal with the works under Law of Moses (but includes it) or the good works due to conscience (Rom. 2;15) but includes it as both are based upon performing what is "good" as defined by Mosaic law and conscience.

Any doctrine of justification by the principle of "works" whether it is the works of the Mosaic law or the works of the conscience is condemned by Paul in Romans 3:27-28. Justification is concluded by Paul to be "without works" as a principle of justification regardless if it is in response to Mosaic law or the law of conscience. Proof this is true is that both Jews and Gentiles are included in verses 28-29 in the application "without works" covering "good" works in response to Gentile conscience (Rom. 2:15) or Jewish law.

Secondly, Pauls' primary example of justification without works is Abraham, a GENTILE who lived 430 years before the Law of Moses as the example, or "father of all who beleive". Hence, your argument that justification without works refers merely to without the works of the law is repudiated as worthless by Paul. Abraham could not have been justified by the works of the law and yet he was justified without works as a principle (Rom. 4:1-6). He was justified without obedience to divine ordinances (Rom. 4:9-12) and the law of circumcision was given to Abraham and yet he is justified without it. He is justified without Law keeping of any kind (Rom. 4:13-15).

Finally,he is justified WITHOUT ANY KIND OF WORKS WHATSOEVER that he participates in (Rom. 4:16-21) as justification by faith (v. 16) is illustrated in the birth of Isaac which was accomplished by power of God alone without the assistance of either Abraham or Sarah as God waited until they were both "dead" in regard to any ability to assist or participate but could only embrace the promise by faith - it is this illustration that serves as the direct application to justifiation by faith in the gospel - Roman 4:22-5:2.

- nor do they exclude the works which God has stored up for us. I would point you (naturally) to James - the only place in scripture where faith alone is mentioned and that would be in opposition to faith alone.

You cannot pit one text against another and you cannot legitimately use a context that deals with one thing to interpret a context that deals with quite a different thing.

1. Romans 4 deals with justification by faith without works BEFORE GOD
2. James 2 deals with verifying justification by faith without works BEFORE MEN ("before God" - Rom. 4:1; "shew me....shew you" - James 2).
3. Every illustration used by James evidenced faith before men (two spies, all Israel seeing the red cord; Isaac and servant of Abraham).

James is speaking about justification by faith VIEWED FROM THE HORIZONTAL HUMAN PERSPECTIVE whereas Paul is dealing with justification by faith viewed from the divine perspective.

I would further point you to virtually every verse dealing with judgement to see that works are indeed part of the equation. If you ignore these then you have scriipture contradicting itself.

1. Matthew 7:21-23 deals with LOST professors
2. Romans 2:1-29 deals with LOST self-righteous hypocrits who think they can escape the judgement of God "according to his works" under the Law.
3. Rev. 20 deals with the Lost

Every text dealing with true beleivers and judgement according to works is about rewards IN HEAVEN not entrance into heaven (I Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; etc.).

Apples versus oranges!

In my opinion, faith alone is a product of man and not scripture. You'll need to ignore much of scripture in order to come to a faith alone position. (I.e. Faith, grace, love, etc.)

In the opinion of Scriptures justification by the principle of works is straight from hell and the doctrine of demons and you can only justify it by perverting scriptures, ignoring context, pitting scripture against scripture.

Peace!
WM

You have no "peace" with God if this is what you professed to believe in at your conversion.

 

[WestminsterMan]

You are simply wrong! Romans 3:37 deals with "works" and "faith" as PRINCIPLES or as "law" in regard to including or excluding boasting. It does not deal with the works under Law of Moses (but includes it) or the good works due to conscience (Rom. 2;15) but includes it as both are based upon performing what is "good" as defined by Mosaic law and conscience.

Any doctrine of justification by the principle of "works" whether it is the works of the Mosaic law or the works of the conscience is condemned by Paul in Romans 3:27-28.

So you may say. However, I completely disagree with your interpretation of Romans 3:27-28.

Paul is clearly talking about boasting as excluded by deeds of the law – the only law he could have been referencing was the old Mosaic Law under which the Jews were bound.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law [is boasting excluded]? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Additionally, this passage never says that justification excludes love, grace, or anything else for that matter, so this cannot be a proof text for faith alone.

As I said before, you are ignoring much of scripture that talks about the importance of grace, faith, love, and works. Faith alone (to the exclusion of everything else) is simply not supported by the totality of scripture.

Secondly, Pauls' primary example of justification without works is Abraham, a GENTILE who lived 430 years before the Law of Moses as the example, or "father of all who beleive". Hence, your argument that justification without works refers merely to without the works of the law is repudiated as worthless by Paul. Abraham could not have been justified by the works of the law and yet he was justified without works as a principle (Rom. 4:1-6). He was justified without obedience to divine ordinances (Rom. 4:9-12) and the law of circumcision was given to Abraham and yet he is justified without it. He is justified without Law keeping of any kind (Rom. 4:13-15).

Finally, he is justified WITHOUT ANY KIND OF WORKS WHATSOEVER that he participates in (Rom. 4:16-21)

Yet it does not exclude grace and thus, it isn’t by faith alone. You just refuted your own position there Dr.

Romans 4:16-21 (New King James Version)
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace.

Ouch...

snip… as justification by faith (v. 16) is illustrated in the birth of Isaac which was accomplished by power of God alone without the assistance of either Abraham or Sarah as God waited until they were both "dead" in regard to any ability to assist or participate but could only embrace the promise by faith - it is this illustration that serves as the direct application to justifiation by faith in the gospel - Roman 4:22-5:2.

Wrong my friend! James is teaching that works show true faith. I insist that James 2:14–26 shows that works are more than mere evidence of faith. Works actually justify. James is speaking about works growing out of faith. If works of faith are not a part of our justification, then it is hard to understand why James would say, as he does, that "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" (Jas. 2:21). When Paul said that Abraham was not justified by works but by faith he had to mean that Abraham was not justified by keeping the Old Testament law, while James means that Abraham was justified by doing a work that grew out of his faith in God.

You cannot pit one text against another and you cannot legitimately use a context that deals with one thing to interpret a context that deals with quite a different thing.

Agreed. That’s why one must take all of scripture together in context or one winds up with conflicted beliefs as you have clearly indicated here.

1. Romans 4 deals with justification by faith without works BEFORE GOD
2. James 2 deals with verifying justification by faith without works BEFORE MEN ("before God" - Rom. 4:1; "shew me....shew you" - James 2).
3. Every illustration used by James evidenced faith before men (two spies, all Israel seeing the red cord; Isaac and servant of Abraham).
James is speaking about justification by faith VIEWED FROM THE HORIZONTAL HUMAN PERSPECTIVE whereas Paul is dealing with justification by faith viewed from the divine perspective.

Hogwash! That’s simply your personal opinion not supported by scripture.

1. Matthew 7:21-23 deals with LOST professors
2. Romans 2:1-29 deals with LOST self-righteous hypocrits who think they can escape the judgement of God "according to his works" under the Law.
3. Rev. 20 deals with the Lost

Every text dealing with true beleivers and judgement according to works is about rewards IN HEAVEN not entrance into heaven (I Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; etc.).

But scripture doesn't say that does it - its talks about ALL men great and small - not just some elect. Further, the reward is heaven or hell. And upon what do you suppose that reward is based upon? Works!

Romans 2:5-13 (New King James Version)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on EVERY SOUL OF MAN who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

There are those old pesky works again.

Apples versus oranges!

Hardly!

In the opinion of Scriptures …

Correction - in YOUR opinion...

…justification by the principle of works is straight from hell and the doctrine of demons and you can only justify it by perverting scriptures, ignoring context, pitting scripture against scripture.

What an ugly thing to say.

You have no "peace" with God if this is what you professed to believe in at your conversion.

And you have no idea whether I am at peace with God or anyone else for that matter. Unless, of course you are a prophet. Are you a prophet Dr. Walter?

Peace!
WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

In order to support a justification by "good" works doctrine from the scriptures you have to:

1. Reduce the standard of God's law of righteousness to "almost" sinless perfection

2. Teach you can live above sin by some kind of perverted definition.

3. Redefine the "works" to something other than what God defines as "good" versus "bad."

4. Reject Jesus Christ as Savior.

5. Think you are better than Jesus Christ

A. Concerning the first above. You must be justified by God's standard of righteousness to obtain eternal life by "good" works. The God's standard of righteousness is His law and it denies anything less than a perpetual life of works that do not fail at any point of the law at any time in your life (James 2:10; Gal. 3:10-11; Mt. 5:20,45) but 100% love for God with 100% of all your being 100% of the time and your neighbor as yourself and anything less "comes short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). God does not have TWO different standards of righteousness. Righteousness without sin is how the Bible defines "doing" the works of the law.

Those who believe in justification by works must DO AWAY with this standard because "ALL" have already sinned and come short of this standard (Rom. 3:23). Neither can one claim that God has forgiven me my past sins and I can be justified by God's standard of righteousness as I confess and repent of sins because the Scripture demands a life that has never once sinned in the past, never once sins in the present and never once sins in the future in order to be justified by the law's standard of Righteousness or as Christ puts it "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect." Your Father in heaven has never once sinned in the past, never sins in the present and never will sin in the future - that is the ONLY KIND of life justified by God's standard of righteousness.

Your response: "There is none righteous, no not one" according to that definition? That is why Christ left heaven and came to earth to provide what we cannot provide ANY TIME in our own life by our works.

So you have to deny this is God's standard of righteousness and have to assert his standard either INCLUDES sin or you can live above sin.


B. This brings us to the second Distortion: Since you reduced God's standard to either include sin or define sin so that you live above it. The Bible calls all who do so liars and denies there is any truth in them (I Jn. 1:8) and the context of 1 John 1:1-2:1 by the pronouns demands he is talking ONLY of persons professing salvation. This means "no flesh" (jew or gentile, professed Christian or lost) can be justified by the law's standard and definition of sin (Rom. 3:19-20; Gal. 3:10-11).

C. This brings us to the third distortion by those who advocate justification by "good" works"

You have to define the persistant declaration by Paul that we are justified by faith "without works" to mean without the works of the law of Moses as though the law of Moses does not reveal the standard of righteousness to define all "works" either good or bad. As though the law written on conscience is not consistent with the moral law of Moses that defines all works either "good" or "bad" according to God's standard of righteousness.

You have to deny that Paul uses a GENTILE not under the Law of Moses (Abraham) as the example of ALL TRUE BELIEVERS when he puts forth Abraham as the example or pattern ("father") of justification by faith WITHOUT WORKS. Paul illustrates in the illustration of the birth of Isaac, that Justifying faith is not faith plus works = faithfulness but the total absence of ALL WORKS that include Abraham's participation as God waited until both Abraham and Sarah were "dead" in regard to anything they could do as ACTIVE participation in the birth of Isaac. It is from this illustration he draws the definition of "faith" (Rom. 4:21) and directly applies that definition to justification by faith in the gospel (Rom. 4:22-25).

D. You have reject Jesus Christ as Savior: This is repeatedly stated by Paul to those who believe they are justified by works in the book of Galatians. Why? Because only the life of Jesus Christ can measure up to the standard of the law as defined in point "A" above and satisfy all of its demands. This is the promised provision in Romans 3:24-26 that must be received by faith "in Christ" as your SUBSTITUTE before the Law of God. Christ standing in your place and you standing in Christ's place before the law by imputation (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8). Either he stands in your place or you do - either his works represent you before God's law or your works do but you cannot have both. You must reject what God provides in Jesus Christ to believe in justification by works.

E. This brings us to the final point ("5") - Those who beleive in justification by works believe they are better than Christ. They reject the righteousness of Jesus Christ IN THEIR BEHALF as SUFFICIENT to satisfy the laws FULL demands against them. No, They insist that they can not only improve upon but justificaton cannot be had without their works. They beleive they are better than Jesus Christ because they deny his provision is sufficient to satisfy the Law of God in their behalf.

Well, these verses only exclude works under the Mosaic Law and they do not exclude everything else - nor do they exclude the works which God has stored up for us. I would point you (naturally) to James - the only place in scripture where faith alone is mentioned and that would be in opposition to faith alone. I would further point you to virtually every verse dealing with judgement to see that works are indeed part of the equation. If you ignore these then you have scriipture contradicting itself. In my opinion, faith alone is a product of man and not scripture. You'll need to ignore much of scripture in order to come to a faith alone position. (I.e. Faith, grace, love, etc.)

Peace!
WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

So you may say. However, I completely disagree with your interpretation of Romans 3:27-28.

I could care less if you disagree with me or not. However, don't challenge my interpretation unless you are prepared to prove I am wrong because I can prove your wrong IF you are honest and objective with the text - no problem!

Paul is clearly talking about boasting as excluded by deeds of the law – the only law he could have been referencing was the old Mosaic Law under which the Jews were bound.

Oh, why is both the Jews and Gentiles included then in the conclusion (vv. 29-30). Did Paul say "the law OF MOSES" or did he say "the law, OF WORKS" in verwse 27 and did he not use the exact same term "law" with faith - "the LAW of faith" in verse 27?

Do you understand his argument here? Apparently not! He is considering BOASTING and which principle "law" excludes it or includes it. The "law" of works or the "law of faith." That is does that which defines works to be works or the law by which works operated as works exclude boasting or include boasting by its very nature? Does the "law of faith" or that which defines what is faith in essence include or exclude boasting?

If you can't figure that out then Paul answers it in the same verse and illustrates what he means in Romans 4:1-5 where he continues to deal with BOASTING as it relates to "works" and "faith."

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

If you work for justification then God OWES it to you "according to...works" and Paul says that such a principle for justification does not exclude but rather promotes boasting as your works put God in your DEBT and therefore you are not saved by grace or justified by faith. Can you understand what he is saying!

You cannot claim Abraham is a Jew but he was a Gentile, born in Ur and was a Chaldean by birth. You cannot claim Abraham was attempting to keep the works of the Law of Moses because Abraham lived 430 years prior to Moses and was not under that law and therefore the "works" that he could boast of (Rom. 4:1) could not be the works of the Mosaic law but his own "good" works because works put God in your DEBT if justification comes by works and God is not in your DEBT and you are not justified by works but by grace if you are justified "before God" at all.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Additionally, this passage never says that justification excludes love, grace, or anything else for that matter, so this cannot be a proof text for faith alone.

Justification is not regeneration! Justification is not progressive sanctification! Justification is a completed at the point of faith in the gospel and Paul proves this in Romans 4:9-12 demonstrating that Abraham was already justified PRIOR TO submission to circumcision (v. 11) demonstrating that the Pauline justification by faith is not a linear incompleted ongoing process that includes obedience to divine rites but is a completed action at the time of faith. This is proven again in Romans 5:1-2 where Aorist and Perfect tense verbs demand it is a completed action that takes place in the past and STANDS COMPLETED right up to the present.

Romans 4:16-21 (New King James Version)
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace.

You simply do not understand the first principles of the Biblica doctrine of justifcation. Justified by Grace is defined in Romans 3:24 as "FREELY BY GRACE" and the term translated "freely" is else used of those who hated Christ where it is translated "without a cause"! There was no cause in Christ for them to hate him. Justification of sinners (Rom. 3:23) "freely" by grace (Rom. 3:24) is WITHOUT ANY CAUSE FOR JUSTIFICATION IN THE SINNER which defies your doctrine that demands there is cause - good works.

Faith is of this kind of grace - IT IS WITHOUT ANY CAUSE in the believer because it is a GIFT of grace (Eph. 2:8) "not of yourselves...NOT OF WORKS" as "good works" comes AFTER the work God in regeneration and conversion to the gospel takes place (Eph. 2:10) not before or during as you teach.

Wrong my friend! James is teaching that works show true faith. I insist that James 2:14–26 shows that works are more than mere evidence of faith.Works actually justify.

Insist all you like but it does not change the text. James is not talking about justification "before God" but before men as he explicitly says "SHEW ME...I will SHEW THEE." Man cannot see the heart they only hear the mouth and if that is all you have is mouth than no man should beleive your mouth speaks the truth. The demons have the MOUTH but they do not have demonstrate it by deeds. Abraham demonstrated his mouth before his son and servant. Rahab demonstrated her mouth with hiding the servants and hanging out the red cord for all Israel to see. James says Abraham was justified by works when he offered his son upon the altar as that is recorded for his audiance to verify and when they read it they will see that Isaac beheld it as well.

Hogwash! That’s simply your personal opinion not supported by scripture.

Prove it wrong if you can! Be my guest!

But scripture doesn't say that does it - its talks about ALL men great and small - not just some elect. Further, the reward is heaven or hell. And upon what do you suppose that reward is based upon? Works!

Salvation is a GIFT not a reward! (Rom. 6:23; Ephes. 2:8). Hell is a REWARD "according to ones works" but what you get in heaven is REWARDS as 1 Corintians 3:11-15 explicitly and clearly states. A man whose foundation is Christ can lose the whole house of works and still be saved (I Cor. 3:14-15) because entrance into heaven is not a reward based upon works but a gift based upon faith in Christ's faithfulness.

Romans 2:5-13 (New King James Version)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on EVERY SOUL OF MAN who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

There are those old pesky works again.

The subject of this judgment are defined in Romans 2:1-5 and so that is why you omitted that portion because it would condemn your inference placed on this text. Secondly, Paul simply sets forth the criteria and consequences of judgement under the Law of God (vv. 11-13) "according to his works" (v. 6) directly at self-righteous people like you who believe they can actually escape the judgement of God under law by their own GOOD works.

What an ugly thing to say.



And you have no idea whether I am at peace with God or anyone else for that matter. Unless, of course you are a prophet. Are you a prophet Dr. Walter?

Read again what I said. I said "IF" this was your actual belief at the time of your professed conversion to Christian you are still spiritually dead and do not have peace with God and never will have peace with God as long as YOUR GOOD WORKS play any role in your justification "before God."

 

[BobRyan]

Well, these verses only exclude works under the Mosaic Law and they do not exclude everything else - nor do they exclude the works which God has stored up for us. I would point you (naturally) to James - the only place in scripture where faith alone is mentioned and that would be in opposition to faith alone. I would further point you to virtually every verse dealing with judgement to see that works are indeed part of the equation. If you ignore these then you have scriipture contradicting itself. In my opinion, faith alone is a product of man and not scripture. You'll need to ignore much of scripture in order to come to a faith alone position. (I.e. Faith, grace, love, etc.)

Peace!
WM

WM - indeed the works God has created us for are works of obedience. But this is only for the saved saints - for the lost person there is only one answer - to place their faith in Christ and accept the Gospel of salvation - from then on it is a matter of "perseverance of the saints" in "doing good" as Paul states in Romans 2.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. Rom 1:1-17 deals with saved saints and 1:18-32 with the lost.

I have stated that in the same way Romans 2 ALSO deals with both the lost and the saved -- and so also does Romans 3.

2. In the case of Romans 2 - we see interleaving of the lost-vs-saved compared side-by-side.

3. The Call to Gospel repentance in Rom 2:4 is "proof" that the entire chapter is "in the context" of the same Rom 1:17 gospel that starts out the book of Romans.

4. Instead of arguing "WE All go to hell because this is not a discussion of how the gospel can change lives" in Romans 2 -- what you have is --

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
=================end quote

That is a case of God showing that people are not saved "because they are Jew" - but rather because they respond to the Rom 2:4 call to repentance and experience the New Covenant - benefit of the changed heart (vs 13-16).


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Regarding the Gospel judgment that is future - mentioned in Rom 2, we SEE the "good news" of the Judgment in Dan 7:22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints". And in Dan 7 the GOOD NEWS of the judgment is seen "in the text" because it terminates the persecution of the saints and precipitates the 2nd coming. (Good News indeed!)

Paul repeats this doctrine in his letter to Corinth "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of God to given an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good OR evil" 2Cor 5:10

The "Changed heart" of Rom 2:14-16 is again the emphasis of the chapter near the end .

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The New Birth promise of Heb 8 "The Law written on the heart" is being identified in that Romans 2 section above. Impossible to miss for the unbiased objective Bible student.

 

[BobRyan]

Dear Reader this is the first time that Bob has admitted he was wrong about Romans 2:1-5. In every single previous discussion he has demanded that verse 4 proves there is a saint being referrenced in this text.

Dear reader - in Romans 2:4 God says it is the "goodness of God that leads you to repentance". Turns out that Gospel call to repentence "is for you" whether you are saved or lost - it is always God that convicts us of our sins and calls us to repentance -- under the "one Gospel".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Justification is not regeneration! Justification is not progressive sanctification! Justification is a completed at the point of faith in the gospel and Paul proves this in Romans 4:9-12 demonstrating that Abraham was already justified PRIOR TO submission to circumcision (v. 11) demonstrating that the Pauline justification by faith is not a linear incompleted ongoing process

The justification that is past (of the Romans 5:1) fits your description. But this is not the case with the Romans 2:13 justification that is future.

Nor is it true of the ongoing walk of faith for the saints in Romans 8 and in 2Peter 1:2-9.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dear reader - in Romans 2:4 God says it is the "goodness of God that leads you to repentance". Turns out that Gospel call to repentence "is for you" whether you are saved or lost - it is always God that convicts us of our sins and calls us to repentance -- under the "one Gospel".

in Christ,

Bob

Bob has told you another lie. The pronoun "thee" is not the audience reading this letter. It is not saved people. The pronoun "thee" is the same person being described in verses 1-3 as well as in verse 5 - THE LOST RELIGIOUS HYPOCRIT who thinks he can escape the judgement of God by his own works.

This is just plain grammar that no amount of hot air or denial can EVER change.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The justification that is past (of the Romans 5:1) fits your description.

You actually admit that Romans 5:2 fits my description? My description is justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without any of your good works. That is the justification that Jesus says "shall not come into condemnation" in the future for any true believer (Jn. 5:24) as it stands as completed action right up to the present (Rom. 5:2 - perfect tense)

But this is not the case with the Romans 2:13 justification that is future.

Your exactly correct! It is not the case with Romans 2:13 because Romans 2;13 has nothing to do with true beleivers, nothing to do with justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. Romans 2:13 by context is about all who are OUTSIDE OF CHRIST but think they can escape the judgment of God (v. 3) according to their own works (v. 6) under law (vv. 12-13).

Nor is it true of the ongoing walk of faith for the saints in Romans 8 and in 2Peter 1:2-9.

Once again you are exactly right. Romans 8 and 2 Peter 1:2-9 have nothing to do with justification at all but with progressive sanctification or the fruit of regeneration - which you do not have a clue about.

 

[Dr. Walter]

WM - indeed the works God has created us for are works of obedience.[/QUOTED]

God has not created any works for us! We are created in Christ Jesus "UNTO good works" (Eph. 2:10). We participate in good works as we yeild to the Holy Spirit (Rom. 6; 8). Imparted righteousness is not the same as imputed righteousness as the former includes our partipation with God but the latter excludes any participation with God whatsoever. The righteousness of justification is wholly and totally IMPUTED righteousnes found in the Person and works of Christ.

But this is only for the saved saints - for the lost person there is only one answer - to place their faith in Christ and accept the Gospel of salvation - from then on it is a matter of "perseverance of the saints" in "doing good" as Paul states in Romans 2.

That is not justification by faith. Justification by faith includes perseverance in gospel faith (Jn. 5:24; 6:37-40; 10:27-30) by preservation of God's power (Philip. 1:6). Good works have nothing to do with justification before God (1 Cor. 3;11-15).

1. Rom 1:1-17 deals with saved saints and 1:18-32 with the lost.

I have stated that in the same way Romans 2 ALSO deals with both the lost and the saved -- and so also does Romans 3.

Bob this inclusion theory fails! Roman 1:1-17 uses universal salvation designations but Romans 2:1-29 does not use such universal salvational language but uses GENERIC language.

Romans 3:1-20 has no reference to the saved and uses not salvational language for the saved. Romans 3:24-29 uses definitive salvational language for the saved. So your theory is forced and false.

2. In the case of Romans 2 - we see interleaving of the lost-vs-saved compared side-by-side.

Absolute lie! There is not one universal salvation designation used in this entire chapter such as the salvational terms used in Romans 1:1-17 or in Romans 3:24-29 - NOT ONE!

3. The Call to Gospel repentance in Rom 2:4 is "proof" that the entire chapter is "in the context" of the same Rom 1:17 gospel that starts out the book of Romans.

Romans 2:4 is "proof" that Romans 2:1-29 is speaking about LOST self-righteous unrepentant persons who think they can escape the judgement of God. The pronoun "thee" in Romans 2:4 is grammatically inseparable from the person being described in verses 1-3 and verse 5. You are intentionally distorting this text. You don't respect the grammar and therefore you don't respect God's Word but twist to suit your belly (Rom. 16:17-18).

4. Instead of arguing "WE All go to hell because this is not a discussion of how the gospel can change lives" in Romans 2 -- what you have is --

This introduction "WE all go to hell...." is a complete distortion of Paul and my interpretation of this text. I have never said such about this text. I have repeatedly and consistently said that Paul's intent behind Romans 2:6-13 is to set forth the JUST criteria for EVERYONE who fits the description of Romans 2:1-5 or such self-righteous lost hypocrits who think they will escape the judgement of God due to their own works (v. 6) with the JUST consequences as defined by God's JUST standard - His law! There is not one single salvation designation found in Romans 2:7-11 as found in Romans 1:1-17 OR in Romans 3:24-29.

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
=================end quote

That is a case of God showing that people are not saved "because they are Jew" - but rather because they respond to the Rom 2:4 call to repentance and experience the New Covenant - benefit of the changed heart (vs 13-16).

That is a lie and intentional twisting of Romans 2:4. Again, the pronoun "thee" in Romans 2:4 is grammatically descriptive and has for its antecedent the type of person being described in verses 1-3 as well as verse 5. The LOST UNREPENTANT self-righteous man who THINKS (v. 3) he will escape the judgment of God by his own works (v. 6) WITHOUT CHRIST.

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Regarding the Gospel judgment that is future - mentioned in Rom 2, we SEE the "good news" of the Judgment in Dan 7:22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints". And in Dan 7 the GOOD NEWS of the judgment is seen "in the text" because it terminates the persecution of the saints and precipitates the 2nd coming. (Good News indeed!)

You nicely separate the BASIS for justification used against those in Romans 2;1-10. The BASIS is not justification by grace but by law, not by faith but by works UNDER the law, not good works outweighing bad works but by a entire life that measure up to every point of the law or does not (James 2:10; Gal. 3:10-11).

Daniel 7:22 has nothing to do with Romans 2:16 as Romans 2:16 is dealing with people described in Romans 2:1-6 and not saints. In Daniel 7:22 you have the common salvation designation "saints" but in Romans 2:16 no such designation. Romans 2:16 presents the righteousness revealed in the gospel, which is the righteousness found in the PERSON of the gospel - Jesus Christ - as the absolute standard for anyone who comes to God by his own works (v. 6). You believe you are as good as Christ because that is what it takes to measure up to the gospel on the day of judgement. This is precisely what Jesus said to the rich young ruler "Why callest thou me good, for there is NONE GOOD but one and that is God."

Paul repeats this doctrine in his letter to Corinth "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of God to given an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good OR evil" 2Cor 5:10

Again, this is another text found in a completely different context where "WE" by context are nothing but Christians (2 Cor. 5:1-9; 11-and the judgement is for rewards in heaven (1 Cor. 3:11-15) not justification to enter heaven. This is about receiving "the things" done in the body not receiving heaven or hell!

The "Changed heart" of Rom 2:14-16 is again the emphasis of the chapter near the end .

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

Note the reversal of the texts above in order to fit Bob's twisted reasoning. If you apply verses 14-15 to regenerate Christians then you have removed any just basis for God to judge Gentiles who do not have the law of Moses! This text is designed not to teach regeneration but to teach that SELF-RIGHTEOUS Gentiles can be justly judged according to his works (v. 6) based upon the law that is written in conscience. Applying this text as Bob does denies any just basis for God to judge LOST self-righteous Gentiles. Anyone reading the developmental argument from verse 11-15 can easily see that just as Paul has laid forth the JUST criteria and consequences of God's judgement in verses 6-10 he lays down the JUST standard by which those Just criteria and consequences are determined in verses 11-16 - THE LAW of God written on stone/parchment/skins for the Jews and written upon conscience for the Gentile and the same righteousness revealed in the personal works of Jesus Christ (v. 16)

Bob does not have a clue to understanding Romans 2 and really does not even attempt to be objective with the text but is committed to defending His lies.

 

[WestminsterMan]

snip...
Insist all you like but it does not change the text. James is not talking about justification "before God" but before men as he explicitly says "SHEW ME...I will SHEW THEE." Man cannot see the heart they only hear the mouth and if that is all you have is mouth than no man should beleive your mouth speaks the truth. The demons have the MOUTH but they do not have demonstrate it by deeds. Abraham demonstrated his mouth before his son and servant. Rahab demonstrated her mouth with hiding the servants and hanging out the red cord for all Israel to see. James says Abraham was justified by works when he offered his son upon the altar as that is recorded for his audiance to verify and when they read it they will see that Isaac beheld it as well.

snip...

Prove it wrong if you can! Be my guest!

Hang on just a minute there Doc...

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), it was you who initially set out (with great bravado and pomposity I might add) to prove that faith alone is a sound scriptural doctrine. I simply asked you to show me directly from scripture where this doctrine may be found. The only thing you have been able to do thus far, is to jump to a fallacious conclusion that, since Paul in Romans 3:27-28 is excluding works from justification (and I disagree with how you are defining works in this context), the verses mean faith alone. Yet, the passage never says that justification excludes anything else - only the works of the Mosaic Law – a fact that renders your conclusion false. Further, if justification is by faith alone (by itself, isolated, sole) then scripture should to be replete with clear and straightforward examples of it; yet, it isn’t – which is why you have been unable to prove it, all the while running around this thread like a blind dog in a meat house.

Conversely, I have shown you how, in plain language no less, that James 2:24 indicates the exact opposite of faith alone. Further, there are multitudinous parts of scripture that indicate the importance of works in the question.

Your position of “faith alone” is built mostly upon Abrahamic verses having to do with faith (among other things) yet, they cannot possibly be interpreted as excluding works altogether. It simply cannot be done. Well, I suppose it could be done… with some creative scriptural revisions. Hmmmm…. Let’s see how a revised Dr. Walter version might be rendered:

Luke 18:18-25 (Revised):

“And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, ‘Yet lackest thou one thing: Knowest that the commandments have nothing to do with your salvation because they concern works. Have faith alone in me alone and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.’

And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he lacked faith alone.

And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, ‘How hardly shall they who lack faith alone to enter into the kingdom of God!

For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a man who lacks faith alone in me alone to enter into the kingdom of God.’”

Jesus could have said it that way if He’d meant it that way, but He didn’t.

Read again what I said. I said "IF" this was your actual belief at the time of your professed conversion to Christian you are still spiritually dead and do not have peace with God and never will have peace with God as long as YOUR GOOD WORKS play any role in your justification "before God."

I am not in the habit of writing something to which I do not hold. So I will say this again. You have no idea if I am at peace with God or anyone else for that matter. Unless, of course you are a prophet… are you a prophet Dr. Walter?

Now – why don’t you stop with your homunculus attitude and meandering epistles, and show me the verse(s) stating that salvation is by faith alone? I think I know why - because you can’t, as they don’t exist!

Peace!
WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not), it was you who initially set out (with great bravado and pomposity I might add) to prove that faith alone is a sound scriptural doctrine.

You will never find a single syllable where I have ever said that "faith" saves anyone as "faith" alone is nothing but an empty hope void of any content.

What I have repeatedly stated is that we are justified by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone WITHOUT OUR WORKS!

1. It is "of faith that it might be of grace" - Rom. 4:16
2. It is "without works" that it might be not "of debt" - Rom. 4:4
3. It is of faith that it might be "FREELY by his grace" - Rom. 3:24

Grace is its basis - unmerited - Christ and his substitutionary satisfaction of the law by his OWN WORKS in behalf of the beleiver is its object and "without works" is its boast in Christ!

I simply asked you to show me directly from scripture where this doctrine may be found.

Can you be honest with God's Word? Lets put you to the test! Does God's Word say in Romans 3:27 that Paul boasting is included in what Paul says is the law "of works" or the law of Moses? Stick with his words not what you want to read into that text?

Now, if Romans 3:27 is condemning every form of justification that is inclusive of what is by nature ("law") defined as "works" then would not that equally deny justification by the "works of the law of Moses" for the Jew, (Rom. 3:28; Rom. 2:13) as well as, justification by works of the law of conscience" for the Gentiles (Rom. 2:15; 3:29-30)?? It certainly would.

Therefore would not that make justification EQUAL for both Jew and Gentile (Rom. 3:29-30)? It certainly would.

However, is Paul really meaning what he actually says in Romans 3:27 in regard to boasting? Is he really making a distinction between "works" and "faith" as opposing laws that define what they are by nature?

More proof that this is exactly what he means is that the illustration of Abraham in Romans 4:1-6 is used to teach that very thing. Notice that the term "glory" in Romans 4:2 is a translation of the exact same word as "boasting" in Romans 3:27 where boasting is introduced in this context. Notice that Romans 4:1-2 entertains this very question whether Abraham had grounds to "glory" in his works? Notice that verse 4 defines what "works" are by nature - NOT WHAT THE LAW OF MOSES IS by nature as Abraham lived 430 years before Moses. Romans 4:4 is definitive of what "works" is by nature or the "law, of works" (Rom. 3:27).

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.


He is not talking about the Law of Moses but about the very nature of works or what it is by essence. It is DOING something for something and that incurs DEBT to the doer by the one it is being done for! It indebts God to the worker! It inseparable from MERIT! However, it is contrary to grace and Paul previous to Romans 3:27 said "we are justified FREELY BY HIS GRACE." Grace is always placed in opposition to works by Paul in regard to justification before God (Rom. 11:6; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:10-12; Tits. 3:5). Hence, his point in Romans 3:27 which is contined by way of illustration in Romans 4:1-6 that justification by faith by essence of its nature is in opposition to what works is by essence.

Therefore if faith and works cannot be joined together in justification before God then the law is not of faith but of works (Gal. 3:12) and therefore the only conclusion can be we are justified by faith WITHOUT THE WORKS of the law (Rom. 3:28) just as the Gentile (Rom. 3:29-30).

Further, if justification is by faith alone... then scripture should to be replete with clear and straightforward examples of it

Let me put in words you can understand - Justification before God is soley by the works of Jesus Christ imputed to your account and your sins imputed to his account (2 Cor. 5:21) and all that faith does is RECEIVE it as fact! To repudiate this kind of faith is to repudiate Jesus Christ and his righteousness which is the sole object of faith. Jesus Christ and His righteousness DOES NOT NEED YOUR WORKS to satisfy the Law of God and none of your works will EVER satisfy the Law of God and if you reject this kind of faith you are rejecting Jesus Christ and any hope of salvation!!! Reread what I just said until it sinks in. Justifying faith is not alone - it embraces all the righteousness of Jesus Christ, all his works as the complete satisfaction FOR YOU before God and His Law!!!!!!

Conversely, I have shown you how, in plain language no less, that James 2:24 indicates the exact opposite of faith alone.

No! What you have shown is defiant repudiation of what the text qualifies in plain language to the the audiance that works justifies you - "shew ME....I will shew YOU" that is what you have shown.

No! What you have shown is defiant repudiation of the fact that every illustration used by James was works performed before MEN only and God never once mentioned as the audiance for these works. It is court of human opinion, human justification for your profession of faith.

Your position of “faith alone”...cannot possibly be interpreted as excluding works altogether. It simply cannot be done.

Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

You interpret Romans 4:21 in its context and see if it includes ANY ACTIVE PARTICIPATION by Abraham or Sarah to obtain what God promised???? Paul said that God waited until the facilities of Abraham and Sarah to participate were "DEAD"! How well can something "DEAD" assist God???? This analogy is what Abraham directly applies to justification by faith in Christ in verses 22-25.

Hmmmm…. Let’s see how a revised Dr. Walter version might be rendered:

Luke 18:18-25 (Revised): And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he lacked faith alone.

You have dug your own grave and signed your own death certificate in perfect ignorance of God's Word. You do not even understand what you are reading and it is self-evident, but good news, I will help you!

1. Note that this man, like you thinks they are as "GOOD" as Jesus and EQUAL to God in regard to instrinsic goodness! Notice the use of "good" four times in 18-19. He first acknowledges that Christ is "GOOD" (v. 18a) and then places himself on the same intrinsic level of GOODNESS when he says "what GOOD thing shall I do" to obtain eternal life. The same greek term translated "good" is "agathos" and means INTRINSICALLY GOOD by nature.

2. Notice that Jesus did not answer his question in verse 19 but dealt with his problem about using the term "good." He denied that ANYONE is "good" but one and that is "God."

a. Jesus was not denying that He was God but denying that this young man or any man can place themselves on the same level as God's GOODNESS.

b. Does this remind you of what Paul said in Romans 3:9-18???? NONE GOOD, NO, NOT ONE. However, this young man does not believe that and neither do you and I will prove it.

3. In order to help the young man understand that NONE ARE GOOD BUT ONE he tells him to keep the commandment and quotes commandments taken from the first and second tablet. This man believes he can be perfect and live above sin and so Jesus says, "if thou wilt be PERFECT" keep the law

4. This man like you believes that it is not only possible but claims to have kept the law.

5. Jesus demonstrates he has not kept the law and no man can keep the law for justification by simply applying the law in practical terms. He applies the first tablet of the law when he says "go sell" all that you have and come follow me - 100% totally love for God with all you are. Then he applies the second table of commandments by commanding him to give "all" to the poor thus loving his neighbor as himself

6. He went away sorrful proving he was a liar and every man is a liar who believes he can keep the law to obtain eternal life.

7. Christ denies that any man "rich" in self-esteem - INTRINSIC GOODNESS OF SELF can be saved. NONE ARE GOOD as the Law of God demands but God Himself and that is why God became man and provided the GOODNESS we need to be justified before him and obtain eternal life and it is soley WITHOUT OUR WORKS because they are not INTRINSICALLY GOOD ENOUGH but only through HIS LIFE, HIS WORKS received only by faith!

You have no idea if I am at peace with God or anyone else for that matter. Unless, of course you are a prophet… are you a prophet Dr. Walter?

Don't need to be a prophet to know this! Any man who comes to Christ on the basis that this young man did - keeping the commandments to obtain eternal life - keeping the commandments to be ultimately justified before God for entrance into heaven CAN NEVER HAVE PEACE with God as long as they cling to that heretical doctrine which denies Christ, repudiates Christ and SUFFICIENT righteous provided only by faith without works as none of your works are GOOD ENOUGH for if they were you do not need Jesus Christ because you are proclaiming yourself as GOOD AS GOD just like that rich young ruler.

Now – why don’t you stop with your homunculus attitude and meandering epistles, and show me the verse(s) stating that salvation is by faith alone? I think I know why - because you can’t, as they don’t exist!

Now, why don't you repent of your self-righteous works for salvation and trust in the righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith alone that is "FREELY BY HIS GRACE"????

 

[Dr. Walter]

Further, if justification is by faith alone (by itself, isolated, sole) then scripture should to be replete with clear and straightforward examples of it; yet, it isn’t – which is why you have been unable to prove it, all the while running around this thread like a blind dog in a meat house.

John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:37-40; 10:27-30; Galatians 1-5; Romans 3:24-5:2; 8:28-39; 11:6; I Cor. 3:11-15; Eph. 1-2:10; Psa 89; Isa. 53-55. Want more?

 

[WestminsterMan]

You will never find a single syllable where I have ever said that "faith" saves anyone as "faith" alone is nothing but an empty hope void of any content.

That’s an interesting claim doc…Let’s look at how this “discussion” began:

DHK stated:

Originally Posted by DHK
Yet Romans 5:1 states quite clearly that we are justified by faith (faith plus nothing) meaning faith alone. snip...

To which I replied:

Originally Posted by WestminsterMan
I would just like to point out here that the part of your response "(faith plus nothing)" is not found in Romans 5:1.
Just my 2c...
WM

Then you jumped in with:

Oh yes it is! Paul says that they have been "justified by faith" not by "faith and works"! Just "faith" alone.

Having trouble with the ol’ memory there, doc?

On the one hand you state that "...'faith' alone is nothing but an empty hope void of any content" yet you also say that "...Paul says that they have been 'justified by faith' not by "faith and works"! Just 'faith' alone."

It looks like you're in something of a delima there, doc...

What I have repeatedly stated is that we are justified by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone WITHOUT OUR WORKS!

Heavens! This is not only logically false but grammatically ridiculous as well. If something is alone (sole, isolated, by itself) then it cannot be listed in conjunction with three other things. Let’s just bypass the “without our works” part for a moment to get at the heart of the problem.

1. If we are justified by grace alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…
2. If we are justified in Christ alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…
3. If we are justified through faith alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…

Now, if you drop the word alone from the original sentence, then we have something with which I completely agree.

We are justified by grace in Christ through faith!

This works for me theologically not to mention that it is no longer a semantic absurdity.

Now to the works part…

Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I think we would agree that no amount of our OWN works could save us. Yet, we are saved under God's grace: … for GOOD WORKS which God PREPARED BEFOREHAND so that we would WALK IN THEM.

Thus, I would posit that there is an organic relationship between faith and works. Far from being intractably opposed to one another, they are in fact inseparable. Faith is necessary to produce truly good works, and works in turn are the evidence of true faith - two sides of the same coin as it were.

Peace!

WM