Romans 2:25-29

[WestminsterMan]

John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:37-40; 10:27-30; Galatians 1-5; Romans 3:24-5:2; 8:28-39; 11:6; I Cor. 3:11-15; Eph. 1-2:10; Psa 89; Isa. 53-55. Want more?

What? You are now providing scripture to prove a doctrine that you just stated was “…an empty hope void of any content”? Oh Lordy me…. Just for the record - none of those scriptures state that we are saved by “faith alone” to the exclusion of everything else - not one.

Yet, you cannot ignore the enormous amount of scripture placing importance on one’s work in the question of salvation. Now - if I might use you as my Piñata once more...

Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES [action or WORK] the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth [WORK] to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments [WORK]. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure [WORK] unto the end, the same shall be saved.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [WORKS], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS [WORKS] of the law shall be justified.

Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth [WORKS] he Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. [NOT FAITH ALONE]

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [Charity is greater than Faith!]

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE. [Faith AND Love]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. [GRACE IS REQUIRED NOT FAITH ALONE]

Phillipians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR OF LOVE, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. ["believing" is not enough!]

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure [WORK], we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.

John 6:28-29
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe [assent of the will – a work] in the one he has sent."

James 1:21-27
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Matthew 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did [WORKS] for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works.

Want more?

To ignore the importance of works is to ignore a great deal of scripture.

Peace!
WM

 

[DHK]

To ignore the importance of works is to ignore a great deal of scripture.

Peace!
WM

To include works in salvation is anathema. It is another gospel of which Paul said the messenger of which is accursed (Gal.1:8).

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

It is quite evident that works is excluded here. It is not of works. Salvation is a gift of God. It is not of works. No gift is of works.
1. It is by grace--the grace of God that Christ suffered on the cross to provide salvation for you and me. In this respect it is all of grace. It is all of grace because salvation is all of God; there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. It is not of works.

2. Is through faith and faith alone. The salvation, provided by the grace of God, must be accepted by faith and only by faith. No works are involved. It is a gift--a gift to be accepted by faith. It is by faith alone.

3. The object of that faith must be Christ. He is the one that does the saving. It must be Christ and his sacrificial work. His work is the only work that counts.

Thus salvation is by by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Anything different than that is a false gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

Having trouble with the ol’ memory there, doc?

On the one hand you state that "...'faith' alone is nothing but an empty hope void of any content" yet you also say that "...Paul says that they have been 'justified by faith' not by "faith and works"! Just 'faith' alone."

It looks like you're in something of a delima there, doc...

Good point. Once we all agree that the life of the saint is one of good works and that perseverance of the saints includes the Matt 7 teaching about the fact that "a good tree is known by its good fruit".

The idea of affirming -- but then denying that point is a big problem in consistency on Walter's part.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[WestminsterMan]

To include works in salvation is anathema. It is another gospel of which Paul said the messenger of which is accursed (Gal.1:8).

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Fortunately, there is more to scripture than Ephesians 2:8-9. And there is much more to scripture concerning the importance of works regarding salvation as I've shown in my last posting.

It is quite evident that works is excluded here. It is not of works. Salvation is a gift of God. It is not of works. No gift is of works.

True - we cannot earn our way to heaven. Yet neither this passage or any other passage excludes everything from salvation but faith.

1. It is by grace--the grace of God that Christ suffered on the cross to provide salvation for you and me. In this respect it is all of grace. It is all of grace because salvation is all of God; there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. It is not of works.

Well, then if its all of grace, it cannot be faith alone can it... if it is, then grace is by definition excluded.

2. Is through faith and faith alone. The salvation, provided by the grace of God, must be accepted by faith and only by faith. No works are involved. It is a gift--a gift to be accepted by faith. It is by faith alone.

No it is not and you will be unable to show directly from scripture that salvation is by faith to the exclusion of everthing else. It's just not there. (see the above)

3. 3. The object of that faith must be Christ. He is the one that does the saving. It must be Christ and his sacrificial work. His work is the only work that counts.

True - without His work there could be no salvation. I agree with everything you just said except the last sentence - there's just too much scripture to the contrary.

Thus salvation is by by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Anything different than that is a false gospel.

I would say it like this:
Thus salvation is by grace through faith in Christ alone.

However, that would nullify the doctrine of salvation by "faith alone."

Peace!

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

What? You are now providing scripture to prove a doctrine that you just stated was “…an empty hope void of any content”?

You pervert my words just as you pervert God's Word - not a good track record. You asked for texts that taught salvation by faith alone and I provided them. In every single one of these texts you will find only faith and NEVER WITH WORKS or CONDITIONED UPON WORKS but FAITH ALONE for salvation - EVERY SINGLE ONE!


Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES [action or WORK] the will of my Father who is in heaven.[/QUOTE]

Another text ripped out of context. Notice that their profession in verse 22 was Faith PLUS good works and they went to hell! He did not deny their good works but the foundation of their profession which was FAITH PLUS WORKS. Sand is a MIXTURE (faith plus works) whereas a "rock" is one solid object (Jesus - 1 Cor. 3:11).

Second, Jesus has explicitly defined that it requires more righteousness than the best of men to enter heaven (Mt. 5:20) which must equal the best of God (Mt. 5:48) - that cannot be found in your works.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth [WORK] to the end shall be saved.

Another text ripped out of context and perverted. The context is the tribulation period and the end design is PHYSICAL salvation from PHYSICAL death - read the next verse!

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments [WORK]. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You have no excuse to use this text if you read my last response to your use of this text WHICH YOU COULD NOT ANSWER. You have a seared conscience, the evidence of a heretic. This text describes you - a self righteous religious zealot who is completely ignorant of what the term "good" means by definition of God's Law! Go back and read my response and see if you can answer it - if not - you need to beleive it, repent and be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure [WORK] unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Same context as the one in Matthew 10 and same response!

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [WORKS], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Didn't want to start with verse 24 which introduces this,huh????? No heretic will. Instead you just rip it out of context pervert and move on. Lost people cannot do "good" in God's sight as God defines good. Only saved people can do "good" in God's sight. There is no subjunctive mode use here to define a CONDITION but it is the indicative mode of DECLARATION. Sorry!

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS [WORKS] of the law shall be justified.

This is a context of LOST MEN - verses 1-5 who think they will escape the judgement of God (v. 3) due to being BETTER than others - they are hypocrits just like you because no such human exists apart from Jesus Christ and judgement day will prove it. This is a judgement UNDER law (v.13) and law's standard of "good" is defined by James 2:10 and Galatians 3:10-11 which Paul denies ANY FLESH can do (Rom. 3:19-20).

Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth [WORKS] he Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is performed IN THE HEART as it proceeds next OUT OF THE MOUTH. The mouth is a CONFESSION of what has already transpired in the heart not the CAUSE for it as you falsely interpret it. Read Ephesians 2:10 and you will see the heart transformation expressed through faith (v. 8) occurs prior to "good works (v. 10). You are trying to make the evidence/consequence to be the cause and that is simply not so.

I Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. [NOT FAITH ALONE]

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [Charity is greater than Faith!]

More scripture jerked of context and misapplied. The context is SPIRITUAL GIFTS not salvation - look at what goes before and after and look at the inward application in verses 8-12! Love is the product of the Holy Spirit poured out in persons ALREADY justified and regenerated (Rom. 5:5) not in order to be saved or justified.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE. [Faith AND Love]

Read it again slowly! NOT EXTERNAL OBEDENCE OR DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD'S COMMANDS (circumcision or uncircumcision) but an INTERNAL state of faith working by love.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. [GRACE IS REQUIRED NOT FAITH ALONE]

How great ignorance! You cannot even understand what your quoting. Grace includes faith becuase faith "is of grace" (Rom. 4:16) BUT IT IS NOT OF WORKS (Rom. 4:4). "NOT OF WORKS" therefore both grace and faith are WITHOUT WORKS. Grace is opposite of works (Rom. 11:6)

Phillipians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Another text ripped out of context and perverted. Try reading the next text to define the cause. You have only quoted the consequence! You cannot work out what is not first worked in and the very next verse tells you "FOR IT IS GOD THAT WORKETH IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DF HIS GOOD PLEASURE." Verse 12 has nothing to do with working FOR salvation but rather working OUT salvation that God has first worked in.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR OF LOVE, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

He is speaking of the PRODUCT of faith or its evidences. Faith itself is a "gift" of God "not of works" (Heb. 12:2; Philip. 1:29; Jn. 6:29; Rom. 4:16).

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:

You have a VOCATIONAL calling (Eph. 4:1) that requires FAITHFULNESS and the conseqence is not heaven but rewards (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. ["believing" is not enough!]

This is not a context of how to be saved! Such were to be separated from (2 Thes. 3:6) but yet counted as a "brother" not as an enemy (2 Thes. 3:14).

 

[Dr. Walter]

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

"store for themselves a good foundaton" refers to rewards not entrance into heaven (1 Cor. 3:14-15). "that they may lay hold on eternal life" - belevers already have eternal life (Jn. 5:24) in regard to spiritual life in union with God right now! They do not have eternal life in their body right now. They experience eternal life right now as they walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Obedience to God right now provides the ability to "lay hold" of it IN YOUR DAILY EXPERIENCE. This is what Paul means by "REDEEMING THE TIME" by being filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:16-18). However, this concept is way over your head as you don't even understand the a,b,c's of intial salvation.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure [WORK], we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.

Reigning is a POSITION in heaven not the condition to enter heaven. Read the verse before and after this one rather than just ripping it out of context.

John 6:28-29
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe [assent of the will – a work] in the one he has sent."

Whose work is it? Is it YOUR work or is it "the work of God"? Who is the author and finisher of it (Heb. 12:2)? You or God? Who begins it in you as well as finishes it in you (Philip. 1:6)? You or God? Who gives it to you (Jn. 6:40,64-65)? You or God?

James 1:21-27
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

What saves your soul? "the engrafted word"? Who ingrafts it? Look at verse 18 which you conveintly ommitted. Certainly we are to be doers of the Word and God requires faithfulness in service but not for entrance into heaven!

Matthew 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did [WORKS] for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Notice that the sheep did not even realize they were doing these things whereas the goats believed they did and challenged Christ to name the place and time they did do these things to Christ. The justified man is a changed man because there is no such thing as justification without regeneration and there is no such thing as regeneration without progressive sanctification. The life reveals whether one is a sheep or goat but it does not MAKE them such. Good works are the EVIDENCE but good works do not obtain heaven (Eph. 2:10).

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

Look at the increased sized and bold words above! Who is the court before whom the professor stands? Men or God? What does works "shew"? Works are the visible evidence in the court of human observation - they justify your profession before men.This was true with Abraham and Rehab.

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works.

Paul's point is that they are inseparable in a living person. He is not trying to prove in this context which one comes first or which is the cause and which is the effect. You could stretch this analogy to argue that but it would be contrary to the immediate context and therefore an abuse of the analogy. He has already determined cause and effect relationship in James 1:18 in perfect harmony with Paul in Ephesians 2:10. Works are the consequence of faith.

Notice that I deal with your scriptures and harmonize them with mine. However, you simply pit scriptures against scriptures which indicates lack of understanding of what you are quoting.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Having trouble with the ol’ memory there, doc?

On the one hand you state that "...'faith' alone is nothing but an empty hope void of any content" yet you also say that "...Paul says that they have been 'justified by faith' not by "faith and works"! Just 'faith' alone."

It looks like you're in something of a delima there, doc...

No dilemma! Neither DHK or myself asserted an EMPTY faith but were talking about the faith defined by Paul in Romans 3:24-5:2 which is "without works." This kind of faith is specifically defined in regard to the object it embraces in Romans 3:24-25. It is then synstematically defined as "without works" from Romans 3:27-4:21. This is the faith of Romans 5:1-2 which is ALONE - meaning without works!

Heavens! This is not only logically false but grammatically ridiculous as well. If something is alone (sole, isolated, by itself) then it cannot be listed in conjunction with three other things. Let’s just bypass the “without our works” part for a moment to get at the heart of the problem.

1. If we are justified by grace alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…
2. If we are justified in Christ alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…
3. If we are justified through faith alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…

Now, if you drop the word alone from the original sentence, then we have something with which I completely agree.

Your argument begins with distortion and ends with distortion. We are discussing "faith" in Romans 5:1-2 as defined by Romans 3:24-4:22 and applied as in Romans 4:23-25. As it is defined by the context we are justified by faith ALONE in connection with YOUR WORKS. As defined by this context Faith has for its cause grace and its object the righteousness in Jesus Christ WITHOUT YOUR WORKS as the basis for justification in God's sight. Thus defined we are justified by faith without works and thus faith alone in opposition to faith plus works or faith inclusive of works.

This works for me theologically not to mention that it is no longer a semantic absurdity.

Now to the works part…

Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I think we would agree that no amount of our OWN works could save us. Yet, we are saved under God's grace: … for GOOD WORKS which God PREPARED BEFOREHAND so that we would WALK IN THEM.

Grace is the CAUSE rather than works. Faith is the INSTRUMENT rather than works. Jesus Christ is the OBJECT of upon which this faith rests rather than our ACTIVITY and the whole is a "gift of God NOT OF WORKS." It is this gift of God that is the "workmanship of God created in Christ Jesus" (v. 10a) that precedes and is the cause of "good works" that follow rather than the cause of this gift or the basis for God's creative work in Christ. Creation is something that only God can do that excludes ALL OF OUR WORKS.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by WestminsterMan
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth [WORK] to the end shall be saved.

Walter said

Another text ripped out of context and perverted. The context is the tribulation period

Wrong!

Matt 10 is about Jesus sending out the 12 disciples -

Hint: read "The context" vs 1-5.


BTW - you can spot a dead argument a mile away. It usually shows up in the form of "ad hominem" as the response to "the Bible".

Classic example --


First the Bible example

Originally Posted by WestminsterMan
John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [WORKS], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Then the Classic "dead argument" ad hominem response -

Walter

Didn't want to start with verse 24 which introduces this,huh????? No heretic will. Instead you just rip it out of context pervert and move on. Lost people cannot do "good" in God's sight as God defines good. Only saved people can do "good" in God's sight.

...
You have no excuse to use this text if you read my last response to your use of this text WHICH YOU COULD NOT ANSWER. You have a seared conscience, the evidence of a heretic.

Not sure why the Baptist seminary that Walter goes to is so apparently so married to the idea of "Ad hominem" as the solution to cases where the Bible stand in opposition to some point of doctrine.

Where did they ever get the idea that the objective unbiased bible student would go for that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by WestminsterMan
Matthew 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did [WORKS] for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

That is the slam dunk!

Next comes the "misdirect" response

Walter

Notice that the sheep did not even realize they were doing these things whereas the goats believed they did

Not the point. The point is that Christ shows how works play in the final result.

Of course - to his credit -- sometimes Walter will step back into a solid Bible position after at first trying to wriggle out of it.

so in the remainder of his response Walter actually gives the correct Bible affirmation of WM's posted text.

Walter said
and challenged Christ to name the place and time they did do these things to Christ. The justified man is a changed man because there is no such thing as justification without regeneration and there is no such thing as regeneration without progressive sanctification. The life reveals whether one is a sheep or goat but it does not MAKE them such. Good works are the EVIDENCE but good works do not obtain heaven (Eph. 2:10).

Indeed - the good tree produces good fruit and so in that future judgment looking at the fruit - does not change the tree - it simply shows in real life who already IS a born again saint and who is not.

The very point we see in Rom 2:13-16!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Of course this means that Matt 25:31-45 will now have to be added to the classic Romans 2 illustration below -

Romans 2 quote --
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
=================end quote

That is a case of God showing that people are not saved "because they are Jew" - but rather because they respond to the Rom 2:4 call to repentance and experience the New Covenant - benefit of the changed heart (vs 13-16).


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Regarding the Gospel judgment that is future - mentioned in Rom 2, we SEE the "good news" of the Judgment in Dan 7:22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints". And in Dan 7 the GOOD NEWS of the judgment is seen "in the text" because it terminates the persecution of the saints and precipitates the 2nd coming. (Good News indeed!)

Paul repeats this doctrine in his letter to Corinth "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of God to given an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good OR evil" 2Cor 5:10

The "Changed heart" of Rom 2:14-16 is again the emphasis of the chapter near the end .

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The New Birth promise of Heb 8 "The Law written on the heart" is being identified in that Romans 2 section above. Impossible to miss for the unbiased objective Bible student.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Wrong!

Matt 10 is about Jesus sending out the 12 disciples -

Hint: read "The context" vs 1-5.

Can you see the spread between verse 5 and verse 22?? I don't think you can. The immediate context of verse 22 is prophetic and identical in context with Matthew 24 passage. It is talking in context the verse before and verse afterwards about PHYSICAL death and how to "escape" it.


In John 5:24-28 the how of salvation and its condition has been established along with the promise that the believer "shall not come into condemnation." Jesus is not setting forth conditions for salvation in John 5:28-29 but simply identifying between the lost and saved at the resurrection. The lost man is not good and cannot do good in God's sight in regard to salvation characteristics.

You both are spinning the word of God to suit your bellys (Rom. 16:17-18).

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 10
1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: ...

5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: ""Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 ""And as you go, preach, saying, " The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
8 ""Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
9 "" Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,
10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.
11 ""And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.
12 ""As you enter the house, give it your greeting.
13 ""If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
14 ""Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
15 ""Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.
16 "" behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
17 ""But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 "" But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 ""For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 "" Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.


Like the sermon on the mount - the entire discourse is a single set of instructions. In this case it is given to the disciples as Christ sent them out. Surely everyone agrees that these same warnings apply to all who would be sent out on the Gospel mission of evangelism.

Walter - your belly not withstanding (to put this in your own terms) - there is absolutely no excuse for wrenching the text into "Christians need not listen to Jesus -- this is only for some odd group at the end of time" heterodoxy.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

That is the slam dunk!

Next comes the "misdirect" response

There is no question that each group is being identified by how they treated what Jesus calls his "brethren." There is no question the "sheep" are already "sheep" before the judgement arrives and the goats are already goats before the judgement arrives so Jesus is not presenting conditions to become "sheep" or conditions to become "goats" or how to be saved. So there is no works for salvation or works presented as conditions to obtain salvation but simply outward evidences of inward sheep nature. The fruits manifest the nature rather. Nowhere does Jesus present the fruit as the cause of the nature.

My consistent position has been that we are first created in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:10a) by through regeneration coupled with conversion to the gospel through faith (Eph. 2:8) without works "unto" good works. The good works follow and never precede or are involved with regeneration/conversion. The good works are outward evidences of an inward work of God that is finised and irreversable manifested outwardly through obedience to God's Word.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Why didn't you quote verse 23 my friend? Doesn't help your cause does it! If you would have added that verse you would see he is talking about PHYSICAL DEATH and how to avoid dying at the hands of persecutors.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The term "saved" is not used always for the same thing in scriptures. DHK has sufficiently illustrated this to you in a former post. However, that doesn't fit your agenda so you conveniently ignore it.

Matthew 10
1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: ...

5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: ""Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 ""And as you go, preach, saying, " The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
8 ""Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
9 "" Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,
10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.
11 ""And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.
12 ""As you enter the house, give it your greeting.
13 ""If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
14 ""Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
15 ""Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.
16 "" behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
17 ""But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 "" But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 ""For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 "" Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.


Like the sermon on the mount - the entire discourse is a single set of instructions. In this case it is given to the disciples as Christ sent them out. Surely everyone agrees that these same warnings apply to all who would be sent out on the Gospel mission of evangelism.

Walter - your belly not withstanding (to put this in your own terms) - there is absolutely no excuse for wrenching the text into "Christians need not listen to Jesus -- this is only for some odd group at the end of time" heterodoxy.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

22 "" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Why didn't you quote verse 23 my friend? Doesn't help your cause does it! If you would have added that verse you would see he is talking about PHYSICAL DEATH and how to avoid dying at the hands of persecutors.

The nonsensical idea that "enduring to the end" will STOP your earthly persecutors from killing you - is ... well.. not rational.

Why go to such a bible-bending extreme??

Who is supposed to go for that kind of logic?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

22 "" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.




The nonsensical idea that "enduring to the end" will STOP your earthly persecutors from killing you - is ... well.. not rational.

Why go to such a bible-bending extreme??

Who is supposed to go for that kind of logic?

in Christ,

Bob

The sad truth is that anyone who quotes the scriptures accurately and points out the precise langauge is "bible bending extreme" whenever it exposes your eisgetical false doctrines.

The fact remains that verse 23 instructs them how to escape PHYSICAL DEATH by "fleeing" to another city rather than staying and receiving death at their hands

 

[WestminsterMan]

You pervert my words just as you pervert God's Word - not a good track record.

Nice. You cannot even defend your own statements. If your words are perverted then they are so by your own hand. I simply re-posted your comments. Anyone can go back and determine their validity. As to whether I pervert scripture, well... that's nothing more than your opinion - and a fallible one at that. I can say the same thing of you (with equal authority) but where does that get us? Off topic, which might be your tactic here.

You asked for texts that taught salvation by faith alone and I provided them. In every single one of these texts you will find only faith and NEVER WITH WORKS or CONDITIONED UPON WORKS but FAITH ALONE for salvation - EVERY SINGLE ONE!

But that isn't the question at hand is it doc? Nothing you provided states salvation by "faith alone" to the exclusion of everything else - they only exclude works and the type of works spoken of is indeed arguable. The statement "faith alone" only occurs one place place in scripture and that is in James 2:24 stating: "You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." This was a big problem for Luther and for you as well. Perhaps you, like Luther, would like to "...throw Jimmy into the stove"?

I will say it again. In order to prove justification by "faith alone" you must show scripture stating that very thing. You cannot do it and have not done it thus far because it simply isn't in scripture. All you have managed to do is to set up the straw man that justification is by faith without works, which to any intellectually honest reader is clearly insufficient. You continue to post reams of mostly interpretive opinion, while dodging the seminal issue. Fine - continue to flail away - and when you are ready to have a serious discussion I'll be here.

However, just for the record you never even addressed my main point.

What I have repeatedly stated is that we are justified by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone WITHOUT OUR WORKS

If something is alone (sole, isolated, by itself) then it cannot be listed in conjunction with three other things. Let’s just bypass the “without our works” part for a moment to get at the heart of the problem.

1. If we are justified by grace alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…
2. If we are justified in Christ alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…
3. If we are justified through faith alone then nothing else is required, else it wouldn’t be stated as “alone” would it…

Now, if you drop the word alone from the original sentence, then we have something with which I completely agree.

We are justified by grace in Christ through faith!

This works for me theologically not to mention that it is no longer a semantic absurdity.

Peace!
WM

 

[BobRyan]

The fact remains that verse 23 instructs them how to escape PHYSICAL DEATH by "fleeing" to another city rather than staying and receiving death at their hands

I think we can all agree that "flee to another city" is to avoid physical death.

But you give this as the answer for "persevere until the end and be saved" as if there is a way to bend vs 22 into "flee physical death".

You can not wedge the vs 23 command to flee the city - into the vs 22 command about persevering firm to the end to be saved. one speaks to physical death - local, earthly - the other speaks to the larger issue of salvation itself.

Impossible to ignore. And conflating the two only results in nonsense.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think we can all agree that "flee to another city" is to avoid physical death.

Well, thanks for at least agreeing to the obvious which is something you rarely do when it denies your desired interpretation of a text. A rare admission. I commend you!



[/QUOTE] But you give this as the answer for "persevere until the end and be saved" as if there is a way to bend vs 22 into "flee physical death".

You can not wedge the vs 23 command to flee the city - into the vs 22 command about persevering firm to the end to be saved. one speaks to physical death - local, earthly - the other speaks to the larger issue of salvation itself.

Impossible to ignore. And conflating the two only results in nonsense.[/QUOTE]

You admit that fleeing to another city is to escape physical death but deny that the verse before it can mean such! Is it becuase you did not read the verse before verse 22 (v. 21) and did not recognize that it is the subject of PHSICAL DEATH that precedes and follows verse 22?


21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Is it because you did not read the first part of verse 22 and note the subject is "ye shall be HATED of all men" that you cannot see that the consequence of this hatred has already been defined as the subject in verse 21 as physical "death" - twice stated???

Impossible to ignore and jerking verse 22 out of this physical death preceding and following context is the real nonsense!

 

[BobRyan]

22 "" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Well, thanks for at least agreeing to the obvious which is something you rarely do when it denies your desired interpretation of a text. A rare admission. I commend you!

Nice gaming of the point but not supported by the facts.

Your response to vs 22 was to misdirect to the "flee this city" issue of vs 23 AS IF you could turn vs 22 into "how to spare your life if someone is persecuting you" context for vs 23.

That bit of misdiretion on your part is just as unsupported now as then.

I am simply saying that if you choose to just look at vs 23 about fleeing the city - then certainly all agree that the fleeing that is done there is to avoid temporal death in this life.

The issue was never "what does vs 23 mean" the issue was 'how in the world did you hope to bend the context for vs 22 into the one for vs 23"??

you give vs 23 as the answer for "persevere until the end and be saved" as if there is a way to bend vs 22 into "flee physical death".

You can not wedge the vs 23 command to flee the city - into the vs 22 command about persevering firm to the end to be saved. one speaks to physical death - local, earthly - the other speaks to the larger issue of salvation itself.

Impossible to ignore. And conflating the two only results in nonsense.

Walter said -

You admit that fleeing to another city is to escape physical death but deny that the verse before it can mean such!

I simply pointed out that it is non-sensical to say that "persevering until the end" was would stop people from killing the saints.

Is it becuase you did not read the verse before verse 22 (v. 21) and did not recognize that it is the subject of PHSICAL DEATH that precedes and follows verse 22?


21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hmm. So that is "really hated" and that is "really delivered to death". Turns out that is what happened to the saints all during the dark ages and even before that time. In the Vs 21-22 context we have the promise to that those who ENDURE such things - remaining faithful to the end of their lives will be saved - at last. And millions of Christians had to do that very thing!

The point remains.

So while it is true that for those who were not caught and delievered to death - were free to flee to the next city, those who were caught and delievered to death simply "endured until the end" - and receive the promise of eternal life.

This point is incredibly easy to see in the chapter - the objective unbiased bible student is not going to as befuddled in this verse as you seem to have hoped.

in Christ,

Bob