How Bad can one be IN the kingdom of heaven?

[BobRyan]

God said -

3. I Jn 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4. Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

5. Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

6. Rev 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

7. I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Walter said
Before John says this, he also says that any professed believer who denies they are without present tense sin is a liar as well. Hence, there is no Christian who lives a sinless life (1 Jn. 1:8-10). If there were then 1 Jn. 2:1-2 would be unnecessary to say. However, on the other hand, no true child of God can characteristically and habitually continue in sin (1 Jn. 2:3-4). John uses the present tense "keepeth." He does not say that keeping of the commandments is the condition IN ORDER TO BE SAVED or IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIIFED or IN ORDER TO ENTER HEAVEN.

1John 1 cannot be bent to say that we will continually break God's commandments and if we do not then we are liars.

Bending it to such an extreme would make the Bible conflict with itself.

Rather 1John 1 states that all mankind are sinners and so all need to "confess their sins" for then "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins".

Then in 1Johh 2:1 "I write these things that you SIN NOT".

Your bend and wrench of 1John 1 to make it say that we MUST continue to sin "or else" - is totally without support from scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

God said -





1John 1 cannot be bent to say that we will continually break God's commandments and if we do not then we are liars.

Bending it to such an extreme would make the Bible conflict with itself.

Rather 1John 1 states that all mankind are sinners and so all need to "confess their sins" for then "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins".

Then in 1Johh 2:1 "I write these things that you SIN NOT".

Your bend and wrench of 1John 1 to make it say that we MUST continue to sin "or else" - is totally without support from scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

Psalms 14:1 says "There is no God."
In like manner why are you so reluctant to finish the entire verse of 1John 2:1. Is there a part of the verse that shoots down your theology??

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is no "boasting context" at all in 1Cor 7. Turns out that in exegesis - context is everything my friend.

I never said this chapter was about boasting. I said Romans 3:27-4:22 deals with boasting. This chapter is about marriage. This particular immediate context is about remaining in the condition when called unto salvation through faith in the gospel. Paul attacks the idea that circumcision is a necessary change that must e made when called by the gospel to salvation. Such an idea originates with the wrong perception of the demands of God's Law as though circumcision completed all the demands of the law of God. Instead what matters under law is the keeping of all the commandments not merely circumcision. Therefore, the gentile should not be fooled into thinking he needs to be circumcised in addition to his gospel calling.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rom 3:31 says nothing at all about boasting.

This is precisely why you are incapable of exegeting scriptures when it comes to justification by faith. Boasting introduces this context with verse 27 and the idea of boasting continues past verse 31 into Romans 4:2 demonstrating that verse 31 is confined to the continued subject of boasting in works.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Roman 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

The words "to glory" in Romans 4:2 represents the identical Greek term translated "boasting" in Romans 3:27.

Romans 3:31 demonstrates how justification by faith denies boasting but yet validates the Law of God. It denies boasting because it embraces the works of Jesus Christ rather than works performed by the believer. It validates the law of God becuase the works of Christ SATISFIES all of the Law's demands against the believer.

This is the simple "good news" of the gospel.

 

[Dr. Walter]

God said - 1John 1 cannot be bent to say that we will continually break God's commandments and if we do not then we are liars.

I John 1:8-10 explicitly states that children of God are never without sin and sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jn. 3:6).

What you do not understand is that the whole person of the believer has not yet been saved. What has been born of God cannot sin, but his body has not been born of God nor has his soul but what is born of Spirit is spirit (Jn. 3;6). Indwelling sin inhabits his body as much as the indwelling Spirit inhabits his spirit (Rom. 7:17,22, 25; Gal. 5:16) so that he is able to "put off" the flesh and "put on" the new inward man daily.

Rather 1John 1 states that all mankind are sinners and so all need to "confess their sins" for then "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins".

I John 1:8-10 is not talking about all mankind but ONLY BELIEVERS as John says "WE" and the "WE" are only those who have "fellowship" with God through Christ and walk in the light (vv. 5-7).

You are twisting the scriptures to include the lost world when the immediate context before and after can only be applied to saints (1:1-7; 2:1).

Then in 1Johh 2:1 "I write these things that you SIN NOT".

Bob, why didn't you quote the remainder of the verse? Because it would prove he is talking in context about ONLY SAINTS that is why and your interpretation would be exposed as false. You simply cannot be honest with the scriptues in their context.

 

[billwald]

>I John 1:8-10 explicitly states that children of God are never without sin and sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jn. 3:6).

Which is why continuing good works is the only objective test of a person's regeneration.

 

[Dr. Walter]

>I John 1:8-10 explicitly states that children of God are never without sin and sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jn. 3:6).

Which is why continuing good works is the only objective test of a person's regeneration.

I don't think anyone on this forum would deny that good works are the objective evidence of a person's regeneration. However, only men need "evidence." Other men need "evidence" to believe you are saved and you need evidence for your own assurance of salvation. God does not need evidence and evidence is consequential not causal of the new birth or possession of eternal life for entrance into heaven.

 

[billwald]

AGREE!

So people who think to themselves or write, "I do not have to do good works because I am under grace, not law," are under Law. <G>

 

[Dr. Walter]

AGREE!

So people who think to themselves or write, "I do not have to do good works because I am under grace, not law," are under Law. <G>

The Person and works of Christ are the object of justifying faith and what propitiates/satisfies the full demands of God for entrance into heaven and exit from hell.

The personal works of the believer play absolutely ZERO - ZILCH - NADA in regard to entrance into heaven. They play a significant role in regard to many other things but entrance into heaven is not one of them.

 

[BobRyan]

In Rom 6 Paul asks if we should sin becuse we are not under law - but under grace .. the answer is that IF you do present youself as a slave to sin you are no longer of Christ.

Turns out a lot of the rest of the Bible agrees with Romans 6 on that point.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.



Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John writing to the saints says -

BobRyan said -
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Then in 1Johh 2:1 "I write these things that you SIN NOT".

Dr Walter continually "circling back" to the case of the lost responds with

IBob, why didn't you quote the remainder of the verse? Because it would prove he is talking in context about ONLY SAINTS that is why and your interpretation would be exposed as false. You simply cannot be honest with the scriptues in their context.

In 1John 1:9 John speaks to ALL the readers saints and sinners "IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to forgive us our sins"

But in 1John 2:1 we have the message to the born-again saved saints "These things I write unto that you sin not".

What then is the scope of John's message to those people who do not happen to be saints as of the writing of the letter of 1John ??

Christ is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

Thus as 1John 4 states - God the Father sent Christ to be "The Savior of the World".


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

John writing to the saints says -

But in 1John 2:1 we have the message to the born-again saved saints "These things I write unto that you sin not".

Bob

Quote the rest of the verse Bob. It makes all the difference in the world.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (1 John 2:1)

 

[Dr. Walter]

In 1John 1:9 John speaks to ALL the readers saints and sinners "

He is not speaking to or addressing lost sinners in 1:1-2:1. The contextual pronouns that follow prove this:

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

NO LOST PERSON ADDRESSED IN VERSE 3 AS "WE" ARE APOSTLES AND "YOU" ARE THOSE WHO HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD AND BOTH ARE COMBINED AS "US" IN THE FOLLOWING PASSAGES.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.


NO LOST PERSON ADDRESSED IN VERSE 4

5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

SAME PRONOUNS AS IN VERSES 3-4 AND SO NO LOST PERSONS ADDRESSED IN VERSE 5

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

NO LOST PERSONS ADDRESSED IN "WE" OF VERSE 6

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

NO LOST PERSON ADDRESSED IN VERSE 7 IN "WE" OR "US"

8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

SAME PRONOUNS AND NO LOST PERSON BEING ADDRESSED IN VERSE 8

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

SAME PRONOUNS AND NO LOST PERSON BEING ADDRESSED IN VERSE 9

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

SAME PRONOUNS AND SO NO LOST PERSON BEING ADDRESSED IN VERSE 10

2:1 IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to forgive us our sins"

SAME PRONOUNS AND SO NO LOST PERSON BEING ADDRESSED IN 2:1

Therefore you lie when you imply that 1 John 1:1-2:1 addresses or includes lost sinners.

Therefore the present tense "have sin" the plural pronouns "we" and "us" refers strictly and only to BELIEVERS.

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding 1John 1:9 "If we CONFESS our SINS He is FAITHFUL and Just to FORGIVE US our sins AND to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness"

(Very similiar to what we find in the Gospels)

Luke 25
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.


Luke 15
9"When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost!'
10"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Mark 1:4
John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 5:32
"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

He is not speaking to or addressing lost sinners in 1:1-2:1.

The idea that the lost are not included in this promise of repentance and forgiveness is not supported by scripture and would have stopped the Gospel dead 2000 years ago.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The idea that the lost are not included in this promise of repentance and forgiveness is not supported by scripture and would have stopped the Gospel dead 2000 years ago.

Why discuss with you? I placed every single verse in 1 John 1:4-2:1 in your face and proved by the consistent use of pronouns that lost sinners are NEVER ONCE addressed in this context. All you can do is make some unsubstantiated rediculous general denial! That is the essence of SDAism.

 

[BobRyan]

I show "repeatedly" that the gospel context for the subject of repentance and forgiveness is never "just the saved people living at the time John wrote his letter".

Your failed argument to the contrary not withstanding.

In John 17 Christ states that the words spoken are "not for these only" but are for ALL who should believe. This is the view of John -- as it turns out.

Your solution requires that you ignore text upon text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I show "repeatedly" that the gospel context for the subject of repentance and forgiveness is never "just the saved people living at the time John wrote his letter".

Your failed argument to the contrary not withstanding.

In John 17 Christ states that the words spoken are "not for these only" but are for ALL who should believe. This is the view of John -- as it turns out.

Your solution requires that you ignore text upon text.

in Christ,

Bob

In regard to the text of 1 John 1:-2:1 you have showed absolutely nothing except your total disregard of the Scripture. I went through that text verse by verse and openly challenged you to find any reference to lost people as the subjects of this text - YOU CANNOT DO IT and your lame excuses and diversions demonstrate YOU CANOT DO IT. I will take the inspired words of John over your uninspired commentary any day of the week.

 

[freeatlast]

[SIZE=+0]1. Can you be DISOBEDIENT in the kingdom of heaven without being cast out?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]By disobedient I will assume that you mean is it possible to sin as a Christian? The answer is yes it is. However if by disobedient you mean can one be a Christian and be in a spirit of rebellion (practice sin) then the answer is no. That would be someone who was never saved.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Now can a Christian be cast out. First no child of God, contrary to the false teaching of "backsliding" will ever return to sinning. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]1John 3:7-9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]So as we see it is impossible for a Christian to return to sinning as a practice because His seed remains in them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Second to be cast out would be synonymous to becoming lost again. There has only ever been one law that makes man lost. That law was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And there has only been one law that saves. That is what took place on another tree and is received by faith. The Law of Moses had no provision to save men or cause them to be lost, The law of Moses came with promises of blessing or cursing for this life, not a promise of salvation or damnation. So since there is no law given that is greater then the law of the cross no person can be cast out of the kingdom after salvation because the onlt law to casr out has passed. There is no more a tree of the knowledge of good and evil.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]2. Does disobedience determine ENTRANCE into the kingdom of heaven or only POSITION and RANK in the kingdom of heaven[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]While the practice of sin is the evidence that a person is not saved it is not what keeps them lost. Our rejection to come to repentance and faith is why we are lost and at salvation we are changed to not practice sin any longer. While the law has no provision to save or cast out the law will be used to judge our place/position in the kingdom of God. So the law will be a measuring stick by which we are judged at the bema seat. We will either reap reward or suffer loss at to what we should have received. The law will also we used at the great white throne to determine the level of torment that the lost experience.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]

 

[Dr. Walter]

[SIZE=+0]1. Can you be DISOBEDIENT in the kingdom of heaven without being cast out?[/SIZE]

Mt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Which one of the above was cast OUT of the kingdom of heaven? The one who obeyed or disobeyed? Answer: - NEITHER - because personal obedience is not what gains entrance INTO the kingdom of heaven as the next verse declares (Mt. 5:20). The kind of righteousness that gains entrance into the kingdom of heaven must "EXCEED" (v. 20) the best of men and EQUAL the best of God (Mt. 5:48). Hence, our obedience does not obtain entrance and therefore does not demand explusion but determines position and rewards "IN" the kingdom of heaven.

[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]By disobedient I will assume that you mean is it possible to sin as a Christian? The answer is yes it is. However if by disobedient you mean can one be a Christian and be in a spirit of rebellion (practice sin) then the answer is no. That would be someone who was never saved.[/SIZE]

The disobedience of the "least" in the above text is found in the present tense - on going continous action rather than a particular completed action.

[SIZE=+0]Now can a Christian be cast out.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

ALL the father give ALL come and ALL the father gives "I SHALL LOSE NOTHIN"

First no child of God, contrary to the false teaching of "backsliding" will ever return to sinning.

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]1John 3:7-9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]So as we see it is impossible for a Christian to return to sinning as a practice because His seed remains in them.[/SIZE]

I believe John is referring to that aspect of human nature that has acutually been born of God (Jn. 3:6). The flesh has not been born of God and nothing in it is good (Rom. 7:18). What has been born "of flesh is flesh and that which has been born of Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). I believe the human "spirit" as distinct from the body and soul (Heb. 4:12; 1 Thes. 5:23) has been born of God and cannot sin at all. This is the "inward man" in Romans 7:21 that delights in the law of God and the "new man" created in true righteousness and holiness in Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 2:10 that is distinct within the human nature from the conscious self ("I" Rom. 7:21). It is where in our human nature the Spirit of God dwells and is His sancturary. It is glorified and incapable of sinning and finds expression only as we yeild to the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:10-13).

Hence, I do not add the word "practices" to these verses but take it in the absolute sense as worded in our KJV so that which is born of God "cannot sin" because the seed of God "abideth in him."

 

[freeatlast]

I think I take issue here if I am understanding you. First no one is cast out in those passages although in actuality they are. The kingdom spoken here is not limited to heaven. God's kingdom is an idiom for His entire rule. he even rules hell (outer darkness). In the case of the matt passage the Lord is saying that those who practice sinning (present tense) and lead others in like actions will be in a place where those who are lest go, outer darkness. The comparison of least and greater is not two individuals or even two groups being compared. It is two places being compared with one being the greater and the other being the lessor each populated with its own type of people. Next the Lord is not suggesting that the actions of either sent them to their respective places, but that their actions does identify as to the fact that they belong there. They are there because they either came to faith or did not, and their actions give evidence as to their faith or lack there of. In other words how they lived proved that thier final home is the place that they belong.

Quote:
I believe John is referring to that aspect of human nature that has acutually been born of God (Jn. 3:6). The flesh has not been born of God and nothing in it is good (Rom. 7:18). What has been born "of flesh is flesh and that which has been born of Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). I believe the human "spirit" as distinct from the body and soul (Heb. 4:12; 1 Thes. 5:23) has been born of God and cannot sin at all. This is the "inward man" in Romans 7:21 that delights in the law of God and the "new man" created in true righteousness and holiness in Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 2:10 that is distinct within the human nature from the conscious self ("I" Rom. 7:21). It is where in our human nature the Spirit of God dwells and is His sancturary. It is glorified and incapable of sinning and finds expression only as we yeild to the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:10-13).

Hence, I do not add the word "practices" to these verses but take it in the absolute sense as worded in our KJV so that which is born of God "cannot sin" because the seed of God "abideth in him."

I am not inclined to hold that view. Here is the reason. John is dealing with Gnosticism. Part of their belief, and they had many false beliefs, was that the flesh was evil and the spirit was good and the two could not influence the other. So in their belief they did no sin since their spirit was good and anything that was of the flesh would not be sin applied to them because it was the flesh that did it and not the spirit. They claimed to be right with God, but outwardly lived in sin. In 1John 3 the writer is giving the church a way to identify those who are are saved and those who are not so that the church did not openly invite these false believers into the community of believers only to be lead away themselves with false teachings.
The passage in 1John 3:9 is present tense continual action and needs to word "practice" to properly understand the passage. We can know them by their fruit as rotten even if they profess to be ripe.