Experiential death and the Christian

[Dr. Walter]

I am not talking about physical or spiritual death. I am talking about a true child of God that is in spiritual union with Christ but walk "after" but not "in" the flesh. I am talking about a true child of God that must be instructed to "put off" the flesh and "put on" the new inward man created in true holiness and righteousness.

I am talking about the Galatians 5:16, 25 and Romans 7:25 man. Your living above sin and justified by works advocates are deathly afraid of this kind of man in scriptures because it exposes their whole soteriological as ignorance and deception. They cannot admit that there is a continuing GROWTH experience in the life of a child of God that is molded by an INWARD CONTINUING BATTLE between indwelling sin in their flesh and the indwelling Spirit of God in their spirit. They cannot admit that this battle is lost and won on a daily basis (take up your cross daily) but the war has already been won by Christ. They cannot admit that some Christians are losing daily battles more often than winning them and that its this very loss that God uses to grow them.

No, they invent a doctrine called "perseverance of the saints" that is defined to exclude any such man but rather present a fictious man that always wins more than he loses such daily battles and when he loses his eternity is at stake because they deny that Christ has already won the war.

Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Of course those who believe in living above sin and that entrance into heaven is ultimately justified by works deny that such texts even refer to saved people. It should seem obvious that Paul would not tell saved people to "put off" and "put on" if saved people were not in a conflict between the two.

Experiential death in the life of a Child of God is when they fail to "put off" the old man and his deeds. Experiential death in the life of a child of God is when they walk "after" the flesh. Experiential death in the life of a child of God is when they reap what they sowed to the flesh.

 

[BobRyan]

I like the idea of growth in the Christian walk.

For examle there is the "non-growth" of those who continually circle back to the issue of how a lost person should become saved - whenever the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints comes up.

Heb 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.

There is a growing in sanctification walk that we see in Romans 8 "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh". And as Paul says to the saints in Rom 8 "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN you will live".

in Christ,

Bob

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I like the idea of growth in the Christian walk.

For examle there is the "non-growth" of those who continually circle back to the issue of how a lost person should become saved - whenever the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints comes up.

When a man does not comphrehend the present tense salvation of time due to present tense reaping and sowing right now or experiential life and experiential death then such a person will redefine these texts to teach justification for entrance into heaven by good works.

When a man does not comprehend the obvious truth of false profession among professing Christians as a repeated subject in the New Testament (Heb. 4:2) then obviously he will redefine such scriptures as proof texts for falling away from salvation by true Christians. This is a mark of spiritual immaturity at minimum or a lost state at maximum.


When a man does not comprehend the clear Biblical teaching of justification by works BEFORE MEN as evidence of true profession then such a person will redefine such texts to teach justification for entrance into heaven by works.

You cannot make any comment to the subject because you are Biblically illiterate concerning the subject.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul changes from the past tense to the present tense in Romans 7:14-25. Here he describes the PRESENT STATE of himself as a born again saved man in relatioship with the law of God (Rom. 7:22). Formerly he has referred to himself as a lost man in relationship to the law of God (Rom. 7:6-13). In both past and present instances his aim is to prove that neither the lost man can be justified by the law nor can the saved man be sanctified by the law of God.

The fault is not in the law of God (Rom. 7:12). The lost man is "in the flesh" (Rom. 7:5) and is at enmity with the Law of God (Rom. 7:7-10) and therefore cannot be justified by the law (Rom. 7:5; 8:7-8). The saved man is "in the Spirit" (Rom. 7:6; 8:9) and although he has a willing "mind" to submit to the Law of God (Rom. 7:22,25) he has no inherent ability to overpower indwelling sin and therefore his body is subject to sin while his mind is subject to the law of God (Rom. 7:25). Here is the every day experience of a true child of God who is spiritually alive "in the Spirit" but is attempting to fulfill the righteousness of the law apart from "walking after the Spirit."

Paul instructs the Galatian Christians:

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.........25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Some object to this interpretation because of Romans 7:14 which says that we are "sold under sin." They say this cannot refer to a saved person. However, Paul goes on to repeatedly and explicitly define and restrict this statement to one aspect of his nature - "that is my flesh" (v. 18) "my members" (v. 23) "this body of death" (v. 24) "with my body" (v. 25) while at the same time explicitly and repeatedly denying that any other aspect of his nature was responsible for the origin of sin within his being:

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.......20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me....22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The body of the Christian is sold under sin, a servant of sin and the proof is that it will die due to indwelling sin. Paul deals with the salvation of the bodies of believers at the resurrection, only then will that indwelling "corruption" be removed and the believer's body will put on "incorruption" (1 Cor. 15:50-58).

In the mean time, the saved live in a body where in the principle of corruption (indwelling sin) is alive and well and there is an every day struggle, battle between "the flesh" and "the spirit" of man that is always a losing proposition if man relies on the Law of God or his own strength to deliver him from the power of indwelling sin. The Law of God has no power to justify the lost man or sanctify the saved man is the lesson of Romans 7. We are neither justified or santified by the Law of God but by faith in Christ "As you received the Lord Jesus Christ so walk ye in him" (Col. 2:6) is the message of Romans 8:1-27. The power to defeat indwelling sin does not come from the Law or from ourselves but from the indwelling Spirit of God. The purpose of justification is to obtain entrance into heaven. The purpose of progressive sanctification by the Spirit of God is to obtain present deliverance from the power of indwelling sin (Rom. 7:24; 8:2-13) so that we can EXPERIENCE life now over death now, experience assurance of salvation now (v. 14) and leadership now (v. 16) and publicly identify in both character and conduct as "sons" of God now for future glory in heaven then (vv. 17-25).

When a man does not comphrehend the present tense salvation of time due to present tense reaping and sowing right now or experiential life and experiential death then such a person will redefine these texts to teach justification for entrance into heaven by good works.

When a man does not comprehend the obvious truth of false profession among professing Christians as a repeated subject in the New Testament (Heb. 4:2) then obviously he will redefine such scriptures as proof texts for falling away from salvation by true Christians. This is a mark of spiritual immaturity at minimum or a lost state at maximum.


When a man does not comprehend the clear Biblical teaching of justification by works BEFORE MEN as evidence of true profession then such a person will redefine such texts to teach justification for entrance into heaven by works.

You cannot make any comment to the subject because you are Biblically illiterate concerning the subject.

 

[BobRyan]

I like the idea of growth in the Christian walk.

For examle there is the "non-growth" of those who continually circle back to the issue of how a lost person should become saved - whenever the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints comes up.

Heb 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.

There is a growing in sanctification walk that we see in Romans 8 "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh". And as Paul says to the saints in Rom 8 "IF by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh THEN you will live".

By contrast - the endless "circle back" model would go to the "foundation of repentance" the moment that a lost person is changed, born-again, justified by faith as we see in Rom 5:1.

As Paul points out in Heb 6:1 if you keep using the "circle back" model as your excuse not to move forward then you suffer the Heb 5:13 problem of remaining in infancy in the Christian walk.

Thus the Rom 2:7 issue of perseverance of the saints also see in Rev 14:12 becomes a difficult concept for you.

Paul says in Heb 5 that he had many more things to teach but it was difficult because the Christians were seeking out the "circle back" model continually wanting to go "back" to the subject of the "Foundation for Repentance".

How sad that they had that problem... back then ....

In Romans 7 Paul STARTS with the perfect "circle back" starting point "alive apart from the law" as a lost person imagining that "all is well". But when the Law came - he realized his sinful condition and died. He then stated that in the born again state -- in Romans 7 last half of chapter he sees SIN in him at war with the new-creation law of his mind. And the end of Romans 7 is an appeal for help.

Romans 8 is the answer. Not only peace with God - but also "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

In Romans 8 the point is made that the LOST do not submit themselves to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they. Sadly - some Christians view themselves that way as well.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

By contrast - the endless "circle back" model would go to the "foundation of repentance" the moment that a lost person is changed, born-again, justified by faith as we see in Rom 5:1.

As Paul points out in Heb 6:1 if you keep using the "circle back" model as your excuse not to move forward then you suffer the Heb 5:13 problem of remaining in infancy in the Christian walk.

Thus the Rom 2:7 issue of perseverance of the saints also see in Rev 14:12 becomes a difficult concept for you.

Paul says in Heb 5 that he had many more things to teach but it was difficult because the Christians were seeking out the "circle back" model continually wanting to go "back" to the subject of the "Foundation for Repentance".

How sad that they had that problem... back then ....

In Romans 7 Paul STARTS with the perfect "circle back" starting point "alive apart from the law" as a lost person imagining that "all is well". But when the Law came - he realized his sinful condition and died. He then stated that in the born again state -- in Romans 7 last half of chapter he sees SIN in him at war with the new-creation law of his mind. And the end of Romans 7 is an appeal for help.

Romans 8 is the answer. Not only peace with God - but also "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

In Romans 8 the point is made that the LOST do not submit themselves to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they. Sadly - some Christians view themselves that way as well.


in Christ,

Bob

First, you don't even believe in the Biblical teaching of Justification by faith "without works" that is plainly and repeatedly taught in precise details in Romans 3:24-5:2 so you have nothing to "circle back" to!

Second, your doctrine of Justification by faith is a mixture of the Galatian heresy with Romanism and totally foreign to the Scriptures. You do not believe we are justified by faith "WITHOUT WORKS" nor do you believe justification "without works" is a completed action no-progressive or repeatable. Hence, there is nothing to "circle back" to as you don't even embrace the fundementals but reject them totally.

Third, you do not believe in the Biblical doctrine of perservance of the saints because Jesus flatly denies that anyone the Father gives to him will be lost and you believe the very opposite. You have perverted the Biblical teaching of perservance in saving faith into a doctrine of works for salvation. You have transformed the Biblical passages that are designed to manifest fasle professors into apostate true believers.

Hence, your "circle back" rationale is empty rhetoric as far as I am concerned.

 

[freeatlast]

I am not talking about physical or spiritual death. I am talking about a true child of God that is in spiritual union with Christ but walk "after" but not "in" the flesh. I am talking about a true child of God that must be instructed to "put off" the flesh and "put on" the new inward man created in true holiness and righteousness.

I am talking about the Galatians 5:16, 25 and Romans 7:25 man. Your living above sin and justified by works advocates are deathly afraid of this kind of man in scriptures because it exposes their whole soteriological as ignorance and deception. They cannot admit that there is a continuing GROWTH experience in the life of a child of God that is molded by an INWARD CONTINUING BATTLE between indwelling sin in their flesh and the indwelling Spirit of God in their spirit. They cannot admit that this battle is lost and won on a daily basis (take up your cross daily) but the war has already been won by Christ. They cannot admit that some Christians are losing daily battles more often than winning them and that its this very loss that God uses to grow them.

No, they invent a doctrine called "perseverance of the saints" that is defined to exclude any such man but rather present a fictious man that always wins more than he loses such daily battles and when he loses his eternity is at stake because they deny that Christ has already won the war.

Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Of course those who believe in living above sin and that entrance into heaven is ultimately justified by works deny that such texts even refer to saved people. It should seem obvious that Paul would not tell saved people to "put off" and "put on" if saved people were not in a conflict between the two.

Experiential death in the life of a Child of God is when they fail to "put off" the old man and his deeds. Experiential death in the life of a child of God is when they walk "after" the flesh. Experiential death in the life of a child of God is when they reap what they sowed to the flesh.

This raises a question, not a disagreement, but just a question. Paul states this in Philippians 3:4-6 where he defends his pedigree not for justification for salvation, but to show his better pedigree does not justify so lessor ones certainly will not either.

3:4-6 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

So here is my question. Paul clearly states that he was blameless under the law. Not sinless, but blameless. If that is the case, and I believe he is stating the truth, are we to understand that the Romans 7 passage is saying that now that he is saved he is struggling obeying the same law. In other words if while he was under law he could walk in obedience why should he now be struggling?

I ask this because I see so many use the Roman passage as an excuse for their failures (sins). In fact I have listened to people teach that we all sin every day which i hold as absolutely false. I asked one pastor after teaching that if he sinned every second. he said absolutely not. I asked well do you sin every minute. he said no. I asked him do you sin every hour. he said no he did not. So i asked him if there was some sort of clock in heaven that chimed and he knew he had to get his sin in for the day. He just looked at me. I asked him were we get the idea that a person cannot go even one day without sinning? It certainly is not in the bible.

So back to my question;
Paul clearly states that he was blameless under the law. Not sinless, but blameless. If that is the case, and I believe he is stating the truth, are we really to understand that the Romans 7 passage is saying that now that he is saved he is struggling obeying the same law. In other words if while he was under law he could walk in obedience why should he now be struggling? How now is it that henow has the Spirit and is now practicing what he hates?

 

[Dr. Walter]

This raises a question, not a disagreement, but just a question. Paul states this in Philippians 3:4-6 where he defends his pedigree not for justification for salvation, but to show his better pedigree does not justify so lessor ones certainly will not either.

3:4-6 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

So here is my question. Paul clearly states that he was blameless under the law. Not sinless, but blameless. If that is the case, and I believe he is stating the truth, are we to understand that the Romans 7 passage is saying that now that he is saved he is struggling obeying the same law. In other words if while he was under law he could walk in obedience why should he now be struggling?

I think that "blameless" is to be taken in the same sense that Jesus said of the Pharisees concerning their outward condition before men. In the sight of men no humans observed the law more blamelessly than did the sect of the Pharisees. However, in the same text (vv. 10-12) he admits that as a Christian he still has not obtained sinless perfection either but rather forgets his mistakes and just continues to press toward the mark - sinless obedience to Christ. No other goal is worthy of the Christian.

I ask this because I see so many use the Roman passage as an excuse for their failures (sins). In fact I have listened to people teach that we all sin every day which i hold as absolutely false. I asked one pastor after teaching that if he sinned every second. he said absolutely not. I asked well do you sin every minute. he said no. I asked him do you sin every hour. he said no he did not. So i asked him if there was some sort of clock in heaven that chimed and he knew he had to get his sin in for the day. He just looked at me. I asked him were we get the idea that a person cannot go even one day without sinning? It certainly is not in the bible.

Romans 7:14-25 is not a context for excusing his sins but rather in a context for explaining why he is not without sin in regard to is Person in spite of regeneration and a new inward man that delights in the Law of God. It is a context of frustration not justification for sin. It is a context of continued resistance not submission to sin. It is a context of explanation of defeat for consistent battling against sin.

Romans 7:14-25 explains why the Christian is NEVER without sin to some exent in regard to at least one aspect of his own person - his body, the flesh, his members. The human body is sold under sin and the proof is that it is dying and will die. The human body of the Christian has not been redeemed from the power or presence of sin and will not be until the resurrection. Presently, there is nothing good in that aspect of the human nature (Rom. 7:18). It cannot be improved or made better, it must die or be transformed in glorification.

Romans 7:14-25 explains where sin indwell in the human nature and that sin originates within us from that source in distinction from other aspects of the human nature (Rom. 7:17,20).

Romans 7:14-25 explains why the redeemed human conscious self represented as "I" in this context joined with the regenerated inward new man (v. 21) that delights in the law of God are not capable of overpowering indwelling sin but will always be defeated in regard to this inward battle (vv. 15, 18b, 19). Indwelling sin can only be defeated in the sense of controlling our will and actions ("deeds of the body" - 8:13) by the conscious self ("I") yeilding to the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:10-13).

This inward battle never ceases in our life (Gal. 5:16-17) and we are always in the tension between indwelling sin and the Indwelling Spirit of God for control of our life. We win control by putting on the new man and putting off the old, by walking after the Spirit instead of walking after the flesh but the flesh is never saved from indwelling sin prior to glorification (Rom. 7:25).

Therefore, the true child of God can have victory over sin controlling his conscious self and external life as long as he walks in the Spirit but he can never be without the presence of indwelling sin even when under the control of the Holy Spirit in so much that even when John operates under the influence of the Spirit so that he cannot write error he still says in 1 John 1:8-10.

"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us"

John includes himself "we"
John places this in the present tense as he writes under inspiration

The redeemed man is not a glorified man and therefore the corruption of indwelling sin continues to abide in his nature and physical death of the body is undeniable proof of its continuing presence. Paul has not yet obtained sinlessness but presses on toward that mark as no other mark is worthy of the Christians aim.

Moreover, victory over the control by sin of our conscous self and outward life does not mean that either our conscious self or outward life is without the effects of sin. While in this unglorified state we will NEVER have a moment in time that we are without indwelling sin in our flesh and without the effects of sin in our conscius self and external life. We will never be able to say I have arrived until we are completely conformed to His image in the resurrection and only then can we declare complete victory over indwelling sin (I Cor. 15:55-58). This is reality and any view that says you can live without sin or above sin is a mental figment of pure imagination.

In the mean time, we live in a daily battlefield, mixed with daily defeats and victory depending on how we consciously yeild and walk after the Spirit. This is not a battle to enter heaven as Christ has already won that war for us. This is a battle to glorify God daily in our lives. This is a battle designed to reveal the plethora of weaknesses in our own lives in order to produce maturity through trial and error. This is a battle to develop our gifts through trial and error. This is a battle to find greater usefulness. This is a battle to experience what can only be learned from defeat and frustration (Rom. 7:14-25). This is a battle that will develop perseverance and hope. This is a battle to daily redeem the time for the glory of God and save it in forms of eternal reewards (Gal. 5:16-17). This is a battle where failure many times provides more importance for experiential growth than victory. This is not mountain top living but dropping into the valleys as well as climbing the up and down rugged slopes of mountains.

To say you are without sin is to deceive yourself or to say you can live above sin is pure deception but to wallow in sin and refuse to get up and strive for sinlessness is equally a state of mental imbalance.

All true born again children of God sin more than they want to (Rom. 7:18b-21). The true child of God can never get away with sin (Heb. 12:5-10).

The indwelling Spirit of God does not provide us ability to live ABOVE sin or WITHOUT sin but enables the inward regenerate man to outwardly express and manifest its righteous intents through the words and deeds of our bodies ACCORDING TUR MEASURE OF GROWTH, as we yield to the leadership of the Spirit. Such words and deeds are not flawless or without the affects of sin due to ignorance, misinstruction, or better expression but acceptable unto God because they are the products of the right intent of the heart, in a spirit of love, according to the light we have thus far obtained enabled by the will and power of God (Philip. 2:13). Next year, due to spiritual growth the outward expression may improve, the words may be better expressed and the actions may better conform to additional ligt but the process of growth never ends as we are being "conformed" to His image BUT NOT YET OBTAINED HIS IMAGE and it is that image which is sinless perfection.

 

[freeatlast]

I will ponder your reply. I will have to read it several times, but at this point I think I agree. I would say this. I made the point about not sinning daily not as a suggestion that we can somehow become sinless while being in these bodies. The very fact that we are new wine in old wineskins requires this body to burst. I was referring to the passage that tells us "to him who knows to do good and does not to him it is sin" (James 4:17).
I do not mean to suggest it as in perfection. Simply that we can walk in the light given, but with the understanding that we do not have the full brightness and are not left very long with the same amount of illumination as it must increase, 2Corinthians 5:17. As we grow and the light becomes more clear we become more able to see clearly although never reaching the ultimate brightness as the flesh limits our receiving that fullness. In the latter sense I do believe that we still fall short, but I also believe that we can achieve a walk that is equal to the amount of light we have been given at least in our outward deeds including our thoughts. Thus living a day without sinning. Although in my case the days seem few and are short in number. I am always concerned at fatalism or even an eager acceptance of our current state due to the flesh. We seem to live in a time when sin is accepted or excused. Even admitting our sinfulness (no one is perfect) is an excuse for many as it becomes an excuse for why we sin then making our sin without the possibility to confess.
Thank you for your time and reply. God bless

 

[Dr. Walter]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]I will ponder your reply. I will have to read it several times, but at this point I think I agree. I would say this. I made the point about not sinning daily not as a suggestion that we can somehow become sinless while being in these bodies. The very fact that we are new wine in old wineskins requires this body to burst. I was referring to the passage that tells us "to him who knows to do good and does not to him it is sin" (James 4:17).[/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]I do not mean to suggest it as in perfection. Simply that we can walk in the light given, but with the understanding that we do not have the full brightness and are not left very long with the same amount of illumination as it must increase 2Corinthians 5:17. As we grow and the light becomes more clear we become more able to see clearly although never reaching the ultimate brightness. In the later sense I do believe that we still fall short, but I also believe that we can achieve a walk that is equal to the amount of light we have been given at least in our outward deeds including our thoughts. Thus living a day without sinning. Although in my case the days seem few and are short in number. I am always concerned at fatalism or even an eager acceptance of our current state due to the flesh. We seem to live in a time when sin is accepted or excused. Even admitting our sinfulness (no one is perfect) is an excuse for many as it becomes an excuse for why we sin then making our sin without the possibility to confess.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
Thank you for your time and reply. God bless

The problem with putting any kind of standard measuring stick on progressive sanctification is that each child of God is different as God does not give the same measure of grace or faith to every child of God (Rom. 12:4,7). God does not have the same purpose for every child of God (2 Tim. 2:20) and God does not work at the same rate of growth in every child of God.

Among the elect there are those chosen out from among others for special priviledges as the twelve were chosen out of the greater multitude of disciples to be apostles. Out of the twelve, three were chose above the rest to see and know things the other were not (Peter, James and John) and among the inner circle of three one was chose above the rest to see and know things the others were not (John).

Furthermore, the progress is not always up but many times as in mountain climbing it is a series of short and long dips and rises while going forward up the mountain slope. If you look at the life of David you can see it steadily rising until it apexed in the murder of Uriah and adultery with Bathsheba. From that point it steadily declined in the sense of absence of temporal blessings and increase of judgments upon David's life. His life became increasingly plagued with family problems and decreasing in outward blessings previously enjoyed. Sin left an abiding mark on David's life.

Lot is the epitomy of a life marked with little extenal evidence of geunine salvation but yet Peter after the fact states he was a righteous man in the sight of God (justified by faith) and that his righteous heart was vexed (regenerate righteousness) but he was WEAK in his struggle with the daily battle with the flesh.

We can say this. No child of God can get away with sin and if they do they are a child in profession only (Heb. 12:5-10).

No child of God will fail to persevere in saving faith and if they do they were children by profession only (1 Jn. 2:19)

No child of God is without inward and outward struggle with sin (Rom. 7:14-25; Gal. 5:16-17) and if they claim to live above sin they are either temporarily deceived or never experienced true repentance (I Jn. 1:8-10).

Every child of God sins more than they want to (Rom. 7:15-24).

Thus the difference between a child of God and a lost person is not sin but how they view sin and whether they are able to get away with sin.

 

[freeatlast]

The problem with putting any kind of standard measuring stick on progressive sanctification is that each child of God is different as God does not give the same measure of grace or faith to every child of God (Rom. 12:4,7). God does not have the same purpose for every child of God (2 Tim. 2:20) and God does not work at the same rate of growth in every child of God.

Among the elect there are those chosen out from among others for special priviledges as the twelve were chosen out of the greater multitude of disciples to be apostles. Out of the twelve, three were chose above the rest to see and know things the other were not (Peter, James and John) and among the inner circle of three one was chose above the rest to see and know things the others were not (John).

Furthermore, the progress is not always up but many times as in mountain climbing it is a series of short and long dips and rises while going forward up the mountain slope. If you look at the life of David you can see it steadily rising until it apexed in the murder of Uriah and adultery with Bathsheba. From that point it steadily declined in the sense of absence of temporal blessings and increase of judgments upon David's life. His life became increasingly plagued with family problems and decreasing in outward blessings previously enjoyed. Sin left an abiding mark on David's life.

Lot is the epitomy of a life marked with little extenal evidence of geunine salvation but yet Peter after the fact states he was a righteous man in the sight of God (justified by faith) and that his righteous heart was vexed (regenerate righteousness) but he was WEAK in his struggle with the daily battle with the flesh.

We can say this. No child of God can get away with sin and if they do they are a child in profession only (Heb. 12:5-10).

No child of God will fail to persevere in saving faith and if they do they were children by profession only (1 Jn. 2:19)

No child of God is without inward and outward struggle with sin (Rom. 7:14-25; Gal. 5:16-17) and if they claim to live above sin they are either temporarily deceived or never experienced true repentance (I Jn. 1:8-10).

Every child of God sins more than they want to (Rom. 7:15-24).

Thus the difference between a child of God and a lost person is not sin but how they view sin and whether they are able to get away with sin.

Let me respond to the last sentence first. I agree that a child of God feels different about sin then the lost, but in all of us we have a conscience that has been formed by outward forces and personal desires. A person may have conviction and feel bad about sin because of how they grew up and still be lost, but that is not enough. If a person has truly been converted they no longer practice sin 1 John 3. Also there are many other passages to verify this. While a Christian certainly is not complete in maturity, never the less from the moment of salvation they never again live their lives as a "sinner". That is to live their lives in the habit of sin without the deep desire to confess, forsake, and continue to walk with their Master. Sin without confession and seeking to break that sin is no longer their habit or lifestyle.

If I may let me deal with those you mentioned from the OT. Some were before the law and some after, but there is one significant difference that these people had, and it was a lacking difference, then those of the church age. That difference is that they did not have the indwelling Spirit John 4:17.
While the spirit did come and go to give power to the OT saints according to scripture He did not abide in them the same way he does today. So to use any OT saint as an example of what it is like for NT saints does not accurately paint the correct picture of what goes on at salvation today. Yes salvation is a gift not of works and has always been so and at salvation what lies ahead is a life of sanctification, but also with salvation comes one essence that no other people have ever had and that is the indwelling Spirit which makes it impossible for any believer to live in sin. While we all are not what we are going to be and we are not all the same because of where we came from, we all will never again live a lifestyle is sinning once saved.
So while we do struggle and are always left with the feeling of being incomplete in our walk we do not have to let the flesh rule us if we walk in the Spirit. The fact that we struggle does not constutute continual failure. There can be victory and it can happen on a daily bases and should always happen, even though this one is still looking forward to that day.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think you are wrong here on both counts. I agree that the mindset (Rom. 8:6-7) has been forever changed toward sin but that does not mean that a person cannot live in sin for an extended period of time. It only means that he cannot escape internal and external consequences for sin (Psa. 32).

There is no such thing as a child of God who is not sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit at any time between Genesis and Revelation (Rom. 8:8-9).

There have only been two types of humans on planet earth:

1. Lost or saved -Mt. 10:6; Mt. 7:13-14
2. Regnerate or unregenerate - Jn. 3:6-11
3. Children of Satan or Children of God - Jn. 8:44-45
4. Without the Spirit of indwelt by the Spirit - Rom. 8:9
5. Justified by faith or condemned - Rom. 4:12,16

The baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with INDIVDUAL and PERSONAL salvation but is wholly and totally INSTITUTIONAL in nature. You are confusing the Promise of the Spirit which ushers in a new public administration of the New Covenant with the soteriological administration to all of God's elect in all ages.

Let me respond to the last sentence first. I agree that a child of God feels different about sin then the lost, but in all of us we have a conscience that has been formed by outward forces and personal desires. A person may have conviction and feel bad about sin because of how they grew up and still be lost, but that is not enough. If a person has truly been converted they no longer practice sin 1 John 3. Also there are many other passages to verify this. While a Christian certainly is not complete in maturity, never the less from the moment of salvation they never again live their lives as a "sinner". That is to live their lives in the habit of sin without the deep desire to confess, forsake, and continue to walk with their Master. Sin without confession and seeking to break that sin is no longer their habit or lifestyle.

If I may let me deal with those you mentioned from the OT. Some were before the law and some after, but there is one significant difference that these people had, and it was a lacking difference, then those of the church age. That difference is that they did not have the indwelling Spirit John 4:17.
While the spirit did come and go to give power to the OT saints according to scripture He did not abide in them the same way he does today. So to use any OT saint as an example of what it is like for NT saints does not accurately paint the correct picture of what goes on at salvation today. Yes salvation is a gift not of works and has always been so and at salvation what lies ahead is a life of sanctification, but also with salvation comes one essence that no other people have ever had and that is the indwelling Spirit which makes it impossible for any believer to live in sin. While we all are not what we are going to be and we are not all the same because of where we came from, we all will never again live a lifestyle is sinning once saved.
So while we do struggle and are always left with the feeling of being incomplete in our walk we do not have to let the flesh rule us if we walk in the Spirit. The fact that we struggle does not constutute continual failure. There can be victory and it can happen on a daily bases and should always happen, even though this one is still looking forward to that day.

 

[freeatlast]

I think you are wrong here on both counts. I agree that the mindset (Rom. 8:6-7) has been forever changed toward sin but that does not mean that a person cannot live in sin for an extended period of time. It only means that he cannot escape internal and external consequences for sin (Psa. 32).

There is no such thing as a child of God who is not sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit at any time between Genesis and Revelation (Rom. 8:8-9).

There have only been two types of humans on planet earth:

1. Lost or saved -Mt. 10:6; Mt. 7:13-14
2. Regnerate or unregenerate - Jn. 3:6-11
3. Children of Satan or Children of God - Jn. 8:44-45
4. Without the Spirit of indwelt by the Spirit - Rom. 8:9
5. Justified by faith or condemned - Rom. 4:12,16

The baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with INDIVDUAL and PERSONAL salvation but is wholly and totally INSTITUTIONAL in nature. You are confusing the Promise of the Spirit which ushers in a new public administration of the New Covenant with the soteriological administration to all of God's elect in all ages.

I agree that all saints of all times were sealed, but not that all were indwelt with the same power and abilities as are those of the church. So on the subject of the sealing of Spirit I was not suggesting that all saints for all ages were not sealed. Even the disciples who were with Christ were already sealed, but He made it clear that there was another giving of the spirit that had never happened before and that they did not have.
Part of that is the indwelling where we no longer need a written law to look at to or point to to know sin. This is why we, the church, are commanded to walk in the spirit. We were given the tool and now we are to use it. Some seek to walk (obey) by the flesh and continually (not practice) stumble. The OT saints no matter what time frame did not have that. They had to rely completely on the self will and the flesh directed by written law. While I do not believe that this is not the limit of the abiding (indwelling) Spirit this is what I was referring to in this discussion, and I believe it is what the Lord is refering to.

 

[Dr. Walter]

So to use any OT saint as an example of what it is like for NT saints does not accurately paint the correct picture of what goes on at salvation today. Yes salvation is a gift not of works and has always been so and at salvation

Paul says in Acts 26:22 that he preached "NONE OTHER THINGS" than what is preached in the Old Testament in regard to salvation.

I believe a gigantic error that is held by nearly most of Christendom is that the work of the Spirit in regard to individual salvation differs now than in the New Testament.

This error is based upon a few passages in the gospel that I believe are totally interpreted out of context.

The visible kingdom of God on earth had been the nation of Israel. They had a visible qualified and ordained ministry. They had a visible and public house of worship - the house of God. They had visible ordinances and authority and a commission that Christ rebukes them for failing to perform and perverting in Matthew 23.

Here is what most scholars fail to see. Christ came to set up another VISIBLE professing people of God. They will have a visible and qualified ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-13) with a visible and public house of worship - the house of God (1 Tim. 3:15) with visible public ordinances with authority to administer them and a institutional commission (Mt. 28:19-20) that went beyond Israel.

This new VISIBLE kingdom consisting of all these VISIBLE aspects would be the new public VISIBLE administrator of the New Covenant. The coming of Christ would establish this new VISIBLE administration of the New Covenant and the promise of the Holy Spirit would accomplish many things in connection with this new visible administration and its world wide mission.

1. In regard to the apostles
a. confirm their office by signs and wonders - 2 Cor. 12:12
b. Provide New Testament Scriptures and fulfill the Biblical cannon - Isa. 8:16-18 with Heb. 2:3-4,12 while providing in the mean while prophetic gifts of revelation until the completion of written revelation (1 Cor. 12-14).

2. In regard to the New Public institution - the congregation
a. Public accreditation and indwelling as the new house of God
b. Perpetuate it by the principle of reproduction after its own kind

3. In regard to the New Great commission - move the redemptive work from the Jewish to Gentile sphere.

However, "the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT" has not changed at all in its personal and individual application by the Trinune God to all the elect before and after the cross (Rom. 3:26; Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2).

Every text used to support the idea that Old Testament saints did not have a permenant indwelling is taken from the context of this New visible kingdom administration of the covenant of grace and in particular the baptism in the Spirit of this PLURAL "you" as the new house of God.

There was no congregation built by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost but rather there were 3000 "ADDED" to the congregation meeting in Acts 1 and assembled again in Acts 2:1. The Holy Spirit did not come on the day of Pentecost to indwell any INDIVIDUAL saints but to public accredit the New House of God made up of spiritual stones already assembled but now indwelt as the new house of God as a PLURAL but VISIBLE congregational body of Christ (1 Cor. 3:16).

 

[Dr. Walter]

I agree that all saints of all times were sealed, but not that all were indwelt with the same power and abilities as are those of the church.

What you fail to understand is that the "seal" IS the Holy Spirit. It is your concept of the "church" that corrupts your view here. Simply translate the term ekklesia by "congregation" and it would resolve that problem.

 

[freeatlast]

What you fail to understand is that the "seal" IS the Holy Spirit. It is your concept of the "church" that corrupts your view here. Simply translate the term ekklesia by "congregation" and it would resolve that problem.

This one first as you seem to be able to type faster then me.

No not at all. I understand the use of the Greek word and all that can be involved. I simply hold that there is a distinct difference in what we call the church under the NT verses the OT saints. I agree that in a literal sense they too are the called out ones, but for practical purposes in relating to the NT saints I separate the two.
Also there are differences. And in this case it has to do with the Spirit and what He does to the different believers at different times. The words of the Lord make that clear. The disciples had the Spirit teaching them in the person of the Lord while He was here on earth. However because He was leaving He gave a promise that another of the same kind would be in them. Now there may be some semantics with the terms indwell, abide or some other words we use, but in the end the OT saints based on the Lord's words did not have the exact same power or teaching or what ever that the NT saints have.
This is why we see so much sin in the lives of the OT saints. They had to rely on law and repetition and we can rely on the Spirit. And this is why the NT scriptures can say what they do;
1Cor. 6 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Yet we seem to deny the warning and are deceived into thinking that a person be saved and live in sin..

So while I agree that the Spirit is the seal for every dispensation I do not agree that He works the same in all people in all dispensations.

 

[Dr. Walter]

So you beleive in a different "covenant" of redemption prior to Pentecost? Can't be the "old covenant" because no salvation was provided under that covenant (Gal. 3:10-12).

The book of Hebrews which deals with "old" versus "new" covenants but knows only of one "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20).

That eternal covenant and its unchangable covenant salvation is spelled out in Ephesians 1:4-13 in regard to all Three Persons of that Covenant. It does not make a distinction "before the world" of some elect versus other elect. The "new covenant" is the "everlasting covenant" in regard to its present PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION but not "new" in the sense of application to the elect.

Your concept of "church" is wrong! You equate it with a TYPE OF SALVATION when it has nothing to do with salvation but with SERVICE as the New Coveant PUBLIC VISIBLE administrator of God's kingdom on earth.

Jesus did not dwell with them as INDIVIDUALS in the place of the Spirit of God for they each were each INDIVIDUALLY indwelt by Him at regeneration - permenantly! Jesus is addressing them as a PLURALITY as the NEW HOUSE OF GOD or the CONGREGATION. The temple was the Old House of God and indwelt by the Spirit of God. However, at the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom signifying the House of God no longer was indwelt by the Spirit of God and the new PUBLIC HOUSE of worship, not made of literal stone, but a CONGREGATION or ASSEMBLY of spiritual stones was to be indwelt by the Spirit of God on the day of Pentecost - NOT FOR SALVATION but for the public visible administration of the kingdom of God on earth in place of Israel and the temple.

This one first as you seem to be able to type faster then me.

No not at all. I understand the use of the Greek word and all that can be involved. I simply hold that there is a distinct difference in what we call the church under the NT verses the OT saints. I agree that in a literal sense they too are the called out ones, but for practical purposes in relating to the NT saints I separate the two.
Also there are differences. And in this case it has to do with the Spirit and what He does to the different believers at different times. The words of the Lord make that clear. The disciples had the Spirit teaching them in the person of the Lord while He was here on earth. However because He was leaving He gave a promise that another of the same kind would be in them. Now there may be some semantics with the terms indwell, abide or some other words we use, but in the end the OT saints based on the Lord's words did not have the exact same power or teaching or what ever that the NT saints have.
This is why we see so much sin in the lives of the OT saints. They had to rely on law and repetition and we can rely on the Spirit. And this is why the NT scriptures can say what they do;
1Cor. 6 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Yet we seem to deny the warning and are deceived into thinking that a person be saved and live in sin..

So while I agree that the Spirit is the seal for every dispensation I do not agree that He works the same in all people in all dispensations.

 

[BobRyan]

First, you don't even believe in the Biblical teaching of Justification by faith "without works" that is plainly and repeatedly taught in precise details in Romans 3:24-5:2

Pointless empty unproven accusations where you simply quote you and blame your own characterizations on others -- is no the effective and compelling form of argument that you appear to imagine it to be.

Try going after a position I actually hold.

Just because a point to the fact that Heb 6:1 condemns your "circle back" logic each time the Perseverance of the SAints doctrine is brought up - does not mean that I deny Romans 5:1 (the point you wish to circle back to).

Walter said
Second, your doctrine of Justification by faith is a mixture of the Galatian heresy with Romanism and totally foreign to the Scriptures. You do not believe we are justified by faith "WITHOUT WORKS"

Here again - more pontificating thand discussion.

I have stated dozens and dozens of times with you that the lost person does not "persevere in being lost" (which is all they can "persevere" in by definition of the fact that they are currently lost) in order to be saved.

I say that repent and accept the Gospel is the only choice for the lost person. Not "working".

Walter -
Third, you do not believe in the Biblical doctrine of perservance of the saints because Jesus flatly denies that anyone the Father gives to him will be lost and you believe the very opposite.

Jesus said in the MAtt 18 story of "Forgiveness revoked" that ALL the penalty for the FORGIVEN debt is RETURNED to the one who fails to persevere. Your argument is with Christ himself.

I point out that the TEXT says "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt" - you generally try to gloss over the Bible details because that is the only way to support your man-made traditions. (Or do you do it for some other reason?)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This raises a question, not a disagreement, but just a question. Paul states this in Philippians 3:4-6 where he defends his pedigree not for justification for salvation, but to show his better pedigree does not justify so lessor ones certainly will not either.

3:4-6 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

So here is my question. Paul clearly states that he was blameless under the law. Not sinless, but blameless. If that is the case, and I believe he is stating the truth, are we to understand that the Romans 7 passage is saying that now that he is saved he is struggling obeying the same law.

In Romans 7 Paul says " I was once alive apart from the Law" meaning that until he fully understood the depths of the law - the real meaning, he "imagined" that he was doing just fine -- even as a lost person.

But then in Rom 7:9 "But when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died" - that is - he saw his sin, he recognized that his best efforts fell far short of the holy standard of God's Law as it really is - and he saw himself condemned to the 2nd death. A lost sinner.

Here is a point where many claim to have clarity -- the point of the lost person who finally understands the full scope of God's Law.

I ask this because I see so many use the Roman passage as an excuse for their failures (sins). In fact I have listened to people teach that we all sin every day which i hold as absolutely false. I asked one pastor after teaching that if he sinned every second. he said absolutely not. I asked well do you sin every minute. he said no. I asked him do you sin every hour. he said no he did not. So i asked him if there was some sort of clock in heaven that chimed and he knew he had to get his sin in for the day. He just looked at me. I asked him were we get the idea that a person cannot go even one day without sinning? It certainly is not in the bible.

1John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you sin not".

The command to the SAINTS in scripture is to NOT sin.

Here is another point where many Christians struggle. The fact that God would actually say such a thing!

In 1Cor 10 Paul says to the saved saints - "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS faithful who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able"

Thus NOT sinning is God's very real command to us.


In Romans 7 Paul argues that as a result of the New Birth - in his saved condition he "serves the LAW of God" with his mind but in his members he sees "sin IN me AT WAR with the law of my mind".

That war - where he loses is what he is lamenting in Romans 7 at the end. It is the solution of Romans 8 that solves it "By the Spirit putting to DEATH the deeds of the FLESH".

That brings Paul's teaching up to the level of Romans 6 where "Sin shall not be master over you".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[freeatlast]

[/FONT]

In Romans 7 Paul says " I was once alive apart from the Law" meaning that until he fully understood the depths of the law - the real meaning, he "imagined" that he was doing just fine -- even as a lost person.

But then in Rom 7:9 "But when the commandment came, sin became alive, and I died" - that is - he saw his sin, he recognized that his best efforts fell far short of the holy standard of God's Law as it really is - and he saw himself condemned to the 2nd death. A lost sinner.

Here is a point where many claim to have clarity -- the point of the lost person who finally understands the full scope of God's Law.

Bob,
So are you saying that Paul was not saved as an OT saint? If so please exaplain Pauls statement that he was blameless as to the law. Also were any OT saints saved? or are you saying this was how it was before Paul was saved as an OT saint, as a child perhaps, or are you saying that Paul was saved as an OT saint but he had not made the transition to the NT?
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