Perserverance

[Winman]

Good


We put our trust in God for our salvation. How do you, Winman, know that you are saved? It's the same way as we do. We have full assurance of our salvation because of what Christ has done for us. We believe in Jesus Christ. As you said you agreed with, we will persevere because of God. How do you know you are elect? Because we are saved. Remember Christ's words in John 6 that, "All that the Father gives me will come to me" The elect are the ones that come to Jesus. Those that are elect will come", and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

I trust in God, not my "free will" for my salvation and the keeping of my salvation. Arminians depend on their free will to keep their salvation.

I trust a God who loves everyone and wants every man to be saved. I know this includes me.

Your God does not love everyone and has no desire to save the vast majority of men. You have no way of being sure he loves you, he may very well hate you. In fact, there is far more chance he hates you than loves you.

You might simply be going through the motions, deceiving youself you are elect. If God doesn't love you, you are wasting your time.

I would find it almost impossible to have assurance if your doctrine is true.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I trust a God who loves everyone and wants every man to be saved. I know this includes me.

Your God does not love everyone and has no desire to save the vast majority of men. You have no way of being sure he loves you, he may very well hate you. In fact, there is far more chance he hates you than loves you.

You might simply be going through the motions, deceiving youself you are elect. If God doesn't love you, you are wasting your time.

I would find it almost impossible to have assurance if your doctrine is true.

Winnie....But your not Arminian, so why would you allow that comment to annoy you?

 

[David Lamb]

I understand that, and if you go back a few posts you will see I said that.

And I agree 100% with Calvinists that a truly elect person will persevere till the end.

That is not the question. The question is how a Calvinist can have complete assurance they are truly elect? Simply professing that you are elect is no proof as Calvinists themselves freely admit that some who profess to be elect fall away.

Simply professing that you are a Christian is no proof as Christians themselves freely admit that some who profess to be Christians fall away. What I am saying is, this is not a matter which is unique to Calvinism.

A Calvinist has a threat to assurance that non Calvinists do not. A Calvinist believes that God has no intention of saving many people, indeed the vast majority of persons. A Calvinist cannot be absolutely sure they are elect when there is a real possibility God does not love them, indeed he may hate them.

Calvinists do not believe that God has "no intention of saving ..... the vast majority of persons." We do not know what the proption is between saved and unsaved. The number of people God intends to save is known to God alone. (We do know from Revelation that it is a vast multitude which no one can number!) And Calvinists certainly do not believe that they "cannot be absolutely sure they are elect (as) there is a real possibility God does not love them, indeed he may hate them". You seem to have got this strange (and false) idea that Calvinists think a person can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, yet not be saved because they are not elect. No, the fact that they believe is the evidence that they are elect.

Knowing this, their only hope is to persevere, whatever that means. If they do not persevere they know they are not elect, but even doing so they cannot be sure.

That is just not correct. Calvinists certainly do believe in "the perseverance of the saints," but that doctrine is not about the Christian by his or her own efforts to keep themselves in a "persevering state". Rather, it is that teaching which is found in (for example) John 10.27-29, where Jesus says:

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."
​

If you look at the section on the perseverance of the saints in any of the well-known Calvinistic statements of faith, and you will see this. For instance, the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 18, says:

I. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.
​

Phil. 1:6; II Peter 1:10; Rom. 8:28-30; John 10:28-29; I John 3:9; 5:18; I Peter 1:5, 9

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

2. Psa. 89:3-4, 28-33; II Tim. 2:18-19; Jer. 31:3
3. Heb. 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20-21; 17:11, 24; Rom. 8:33-39; Luke 22:32
4. John 14:16-17; I John 2:27; 3:9
5. Jer. 32:40; Psa. 89:34-37; see Jer. 31:31-34
6. John 6:38-40; 10:28; II Thess. 3:3; I John 2:19

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve his Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

7. Exod. 32:21; Jonah 1:3, 10; Psa. 51:14; Matt. 26:70, 72, 74
8. II Sam. 12:9, 13; Gal. 2:11-14
9. Num. 20:12; II Sam. 11:27; Isa. 64:7, 9
10. Eph. 4:30
11. Psa. 51:8, 10, 12; Rev. 2:4; Matt. 26:75
12. Isa. 63:17
13. Psa. 32:3-4; 51:8
14. Gen. 12:10-20; II Sam. 12:14; Gal. 2:13
15. Psa. 89:31-32; I Cor. 11:32
​

 

[Winman]

You guys must think people are stupid.

Calvinists do not believe that God has "no intention of saving ..... the vast majority of persons." We do not know what the proption is between saved and unsaved. The number of people God intends to save is known to God alone. (We do know from Revelation that it is a vast multitude which no one can number!) And Calvinists certainly do not believe that they "cannot be absolutely sure they are elect (as) there is a real possibility God does not love them, indeed he may hate them".

Of course you believe God only intends to save a limited number of people, that is Limited Atonement.

You seem to have got this strange (and false) idea that Calvinists think a person can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, yet not be saved because they are not elect. No, the fact that they believe is the evidence that they are elect.

Now you misrepresent me. I have said several times now that I agree 100% that a truly elect person will persevere and be saved.

What I have said is you have no way to know you are elect. You could be fooling yourself. You do not know that God loves you because your doctrine teaches that God does not love everyone.

You guys gotta get up a lot earlier to fool me with a deceptive answer like this.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Boy do you remind me of Hannibal. Totally committed to his position. You have drawn your own line in the sand. Then came Zama

 

[David Lamb]

You guys must think people are stupid.

Of course you believe God only intends to save a limited number of people, that is Limited Atonement.

Sorry, Winman, if I gave the impression that I thought anyone was stupid; I assure you that was not my intention. Regarding "limited atonement", I don't like that phrase, because it so easily gives the impression of fewness. (No real reason why it should. You Presidential elections are I imagine limited to United Staes citizens, but there are over three hundred million of those). I far prefer the term "Particular Redemption". Christ laid down His life for a particular people, whom He called "My sheep".

Also I found it strange to read you telling me what I believe; that seems to be the wrong way round, somehow!

Now you misrepresent me. I have said several times now that I agree 100% that a truly elect person will persevere and be saved.

What I have said is you have no way to know you are elect. You could be fooling yourself. You do not know that God loves you because your doctrine teaches that God does not love everyone.

I apologise that I wrote something you took as misrepresentation. However, I wasn't answering what you have said several times about your 100% belief that a truly elect person will persevere and be saved.

No, my words: "You seem to have got this strange (and false) idea that Calvinists think a person can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, yet not be saved because they are not elect. No, the fact that they believe is the evidence that they are elect." were in answer to your assertion that a Calvinist cannot know that he is among the elect. I had inferred (perhaps wrongly) that you imagined Calvinists to believe that a person can trust the Saviour, but yet not be saved because they are not elect. I was attempting to explain that Calvinists do not believe that.

You guys gotta get up a lot earlier to fool me with a deceptive answer like this.

I stress that I was not try to fool you, nor was I being deceptive. I am really sorry that you took it that way. On a lighter not, I usually am out of bed by 6am!

 

[annsni]

IMHO, both Cals/DoGs and Arminians have a faulty view of faith. The scriptures show that believeing on Jesus and being given everlasting life is a once and for all event.
Luke 7:48-50 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
This woman's sins weren't forgiven for one day, they were forgiven once and for all.
In John 5:24 Jesus said he that believes on him has passed from death to life.
The moment a person trusts Jesus they pass from death to life, they have everlasting life NOW. There is nothing to persevere or endure, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit forever.
What was the seal of Abraham's righteousness imputed to him? Circumcision. Can that be undone?

I agree with you but I think you misunderstand the "perseverance of the saints". A better term that I like is "preservation of the saints". In other words, we DO have salvation now and those who are saved WILL persevere because of that salvation - they will be preserved in Christ through their lives. Yes, they will stumble and at times even fall but their hearts never will.

 

[preacher4truth]

How do we know winman?


Calvinism: Lends itself by it's very nature to assurance of salvation. Why? God chose us. We know since He drew us to His precious Son, it was of Him. "Grace to you and peace from God our Father...1 Cor. 1:4" is His word of comfort to us. Furthermore, we see and know and believe He did all of the saving. We hear His voice. Why do we hear His voice? Because we are His sheep. John 10:26-28. We also know we can never lose salvation, we are in His hand and "none" or "nothing" can pluck out of His hand. John 10:28. Paul, claimed his calling and election over and over and over in his epistles, and this gi ves great comfort to the elect. They see God did all of it. He Paul knew God chose him in Him before the foundation of the world, and called him even in his mothers womb; Galatians 1:15. We believe in the Word of God, and then of course He saved us, and says we will never be cast out, or lost. We simpy believe.All of these truths become clear to teh true believer. Be careful, everything I said here is Biblical. Be cautious not to mock it and show your disdain, as is you, and fabricate other things into what I've said.

Arminianism: They chose God. Well, they give a little bit of credit to election, just in case. But they rob (attempt to) the glory from God and the glory of His election being Sovereign and demand their rights and free will. This leads logically to their loss of salvation, which is error and utter heresy. By the mere rejection of eternal security the methodology/theology of Arminianism becomes a works based soteriology. They cannot possess 100% assurance. It's up to them to choose, it's up to them to keep it also.

 

[annsni]

I trust a God who loves everyone and wants every man to be saved. I know this includes me.

Your God does not love everyone and has no desire to save the vast majority of men. You have no way of being sure he loves you, he may very well hate you. In fact, there is far more chance he hates you than loves you.

You might simply be going through the motions, deceiving youself you are elect. If God doesn't love you, you are wasting your time.

I would find it almost impossible to have assurance if your doctrine is true.

If God hated us, then we would not love Him and be a new creation. Those who are in Christ cannot hate God. Those who are outside of Christ do hate Him. It's a pretty clear distinction. I CAN know that God loves me because He saved me.

 

[annsni]

Of course you believe God only intends to save a limited number of people, that is Limited Atonement.

Is the gate wide or narrow? How many will find it?

 

[freeatlast]

Here is another issue where people are taking one sided view based on their personal desires and all it does is confuse the truth. God does love;

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

However this same God also hates;
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

That is everyone who is lost

While we will never totally understand God this side of eternity we will certainly not understand Him at all with one sided views when there is two sides given.

 

[preacher4truth]

Is the gate wide or narrow? How many will find it?

I think winmans struggle is on "intends," or with God's intentions, not on the amount who end up there.

I don't know why people struggle with God's intentions, and whether or not He only intended to save some (really His sheep).

I don't see this as trusting God to an further extent, and as kind of holding back ones level of trust in Him.

It's as if "Well, He doesn't fit into my preconceived concept of Him, so I reject this truth."

We should allow the Bible to adjust our thinking, not vice versa.

 

[blackbird]

The question is how YOU KNOW personally if you are elect and will persevere?

I am NOT a calvinist----nor am I an arminest

But my election is IN CHRIST---The Lord Jesus is the very elect of the Father----and by faith I receive the Lord Jesus according to John 1:12 that says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."

When I --- by faith ---- receive the Lord Jesus---not only am I receiveing HIM---but I am receiving everything that He is----and He is the very elect of God

And I am also receiveing at this very moment---HIS perserverance----the Lord Jesus is the only person who has ever lived who perservered----I realize that there is no way I myself can perservere(the smallest of the smallest evil thought---and even the failure to do even the smallest deed of good is a sin)-----but Scripture teaches me that the Lord Jesus perservered----and that I at this very moment am receiving HIS perserverance----realizing that I cannot perserver but that He did---I MUST receive HIS perserverance

So it is not I who am "elect"----it is Jesus Christ and at this very moment I am receiving HIS election

It is not I who am perservering---but it is Jesus Christ who did, is, and forevermore will perservere---and I receive HIS perserverance

For a calvin to say it is his(the calvin student) election---is bogas

For a calvin to say it is his(the calvin student) perserverance---is bogas

The Apostle Paul says that the life he is living is not his own but Christ through him----not I but Christ

 

[Cypress]

Is the gate wide or narrow? How many will find it?

Why would the size of the gate be of any importance if only the chosen will enter? IMO It's size would only be relevant if some effort was required to either find it or pass through it.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am NOT a calvinist----nor am I an arminest

But my election is IN CHRIST---The Lord Jesus is the very elect of the Father----and by faith I receive the Lord Jesus according to John 1:12 that says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."

When I --- by faith ---- receive the Lord Jesus---not only am I receiveing HIM---but I am receiving everything that He is----and He is the very elect of God

And I am also receiveing at this very moment---HIS perserverance----the Lord Jesus is the only person who has ever lived who perservered----I realize that there is no way I myself can perservere(the smallest of the smallest evil thought---and even the failure to do even the smallest deed of good is a sin)-----but Scripture teaches me that the Lord Jesus perservered----and that I at this very moment am receiving HIS perserverance----realizing that I cannot perserver but that He did---I MUST receive HIS perserverance

So it is not I who am "elect"----it is Jesus Christ and at this very moment I am receiving HIS election

It is not I who am perservering---but it is Jesus Christ who did, is, and forevermore will perservere---and I receive HIS perserverance

For a calvin to say it is his(the calvin student) election---is bogas

For a calvin to say it is his(the calvin student) perserverance---is bogas

The Apostle Paul says that the life he is living is not his own but Christ through him----not I but Christ

For a calvinist (Christian) to claim being elect , to you it is bogus?

Is this what you are saying when you say "it is his election"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Am I one of the elect? . the answer to that question is easy. ' Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.' If you do that, you are among the elect.

 

[freeatlast]

I am NOT a calvinist----nor am I an arminest

But my election is IN CHRIST---The Lord Jesus is the very elect of the Father----and by faith I receive the Lord Jesus according to John 1:12 that says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the Sons of God, even to them that believe on His name."

When I --- by faith ---- receive the Lord Jesus---not only am I receiveing HIM---but I am receiving everything that He is----and He is the very elect of God

And I am also receiveing at this very moment---HIS perserverance----the Lord Jesus is the only person who has ever lived who perservered----I realize that there is no way I myself can perservere(the smallest of the smallest evil thought---and even the failure to do even the smallest deed of good is a sin)-----but Scripture teaches me that the Lord Jesus perservered----and that I at this very moment am receiving HIS perserverance----realizing that I cannot perserver but that He did---I MUST receive HIS perserverance

So it is not I who am "elect"----it is Jesus Christ and at this very moment I am receiving HIS election

It is not I who am perservering---but it is Jesus Christ who did, is, and forevermore will perservere---and I receive HIS perserverance

For a calvin to say it is his(the calvin student) election---is bogas

For a calvin to say it is his(the calvin student) perserverance---is bogas

The Apostle Paul says that the life he is living is not his own but Christ through him----not I but Christ

That is an interesting belief. Would you post some scripture that Christ is God's elect?

 

[blackbird]

For a calvinist (Christian) to claim being elect , to you it is bogus?

Is this what you are saying when you say "it is his election"?

Calvinists have no room to "boast" of being elected----he is elect--only because of Jesus being THE ELECT of God----and is receiving the election of Jesus Christ---IOW---he is elect, not because God elected him--but he is elect because God elected Jesus Christ and he(both the calvin & armenian believer) is receiving that said election(the election whereby God elects Jesus Christ)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

For a calvinist (Christian) to claim being elect , to you it is bogus?

Is this what you are saying when you say "it is his election"?

I think he is saying the salvation of the elect is due to divine mercy only. this is the chief teaching of these important texts in Romans.

 

[preacher4truth]

Calvinists have no room to "boast" of being elected----he is elect--only because of Jesus being THE ELECT of God----and is receiving the election of Jesus Christ---IOW---he is elect, not because God elected him--but he is elect because God elected Jesus Christ and he(both the calvin & armenian believer) is receiving that said election(the election whereby God elects Jesus Christ)

I guess I don't get it since that just made your position less clear (at least to me.)

Are you saying that when a calvinist (Christian) says he is elect, it is bogus?

Also, that claiming to be elect is haughty and arrogant?

BTW, I have never seen "a calvin" "(a calvin student)" claim "his election" that it is "his" ever. I see that they give all of that credit to God alone.