Was Faith a Gift?

[preacher4truth]

That is certainly the position one has to take if they hold to hyper Calvinism, but that is not what scripture teaches. He does not enlighten those who cannot accept and the warning to those in Hebrews to come all the way would be wasted unless they could.

Nope. This is the position of Scripture, and is in fact what they, the Scriptures teach. John 11:52, Acts 13:48, John 10:26, John 6:37, 44 and much more.

He absolutely does call those who cannot and will not obey. Look at the OT. It was God's way to do this. Look at Israel in the wilderness. Were they all believers? No. See 1 Corinthians 10 for a treatment on this. Did He work among all of them, and attempt to gather them all under His Wings? Yep.

NT theology teaches us they are not His sheep, and thus they do not hear nor obey His voice.

He has always done it this way. In this you do err.

 

[psalms109:31]

Call

if you mean by everyone having the same chance to believe everyone can experience the base evidence of a Creator by the creation then i agree. If by everyone having the same chance you mean everyone has the same amount of revelation above being able to see the creation then the statement is false. Not everyone gets the same amount of evidence and revelation. Some like us here in this country have churches just about on every corner. There is TV, street preachers, and individual witnessing, but there are those who have never heard the gospel or had any revelation of God other then what is seen in the creation. In fact the bible even expalins that not all have heard or will hear.

Everyone who has not heard the message the words of life and death , or have not believed in Jesus will face condemnation. That is why we need to make the most effectually call to God that the harvast is plenty, but the workers are few, please send out more workers.

If the Holy Spirit doesn't go out and we are His temple, no one will be saved without the message and the words of life and death for those who do not believe.

That is why it is “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Romans 10 is a good chapter

 

[quantumfaith]

here is what i wrote;

I always find it interesting that people are so afraid of works salvation that they tend to make them outlawed in the believer. First we are saved unto good works. Second while we are saved by grace through faith we will be judged by our works. Third while works do not save they are required in the process for salvation if one counts exercising faith and repentance as works. We do not get saved by doing nothing.

I did not say that works save. I said that if you say faith and repentance are works then works are required in the salvation process yet they are not what saves.We are saved through them, not by them.

freeatlast,

I am SO with you faith and repentance are most assuredly not "works", but they are required components of this marvelous salvation granted by our God. If that makes me a "synergist", so be it. God will not save me without them, (even though he could) he will not.

 

[preacher4truth]

here is what i wrote;

I always find it interesting that people are so afraid of works salvation that they tend to make them outlawed in the believer. First we are saved unto good works. Second while we are saved by grace through faith we will be judged by our works. Third while works do not save they are required in the process for salvation if one counts exercising faith and repentance as works. We do not get saved by doing nothing.

I did not say that works save. I said that ifyou say faith and repentance are works then works are required in the salvation process yet they are not what saves.We are saved through them, not by them.

This is what I responded to. Which you said I responded to the wrong post, or rebutted the wrong one.

Nope. I got the right one. :thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

That is certainly the position one has to take if they hold to hyper Calvinism, but that is not what scripture teaches. He does not enlighten those who cannot accept and the warning to those in Hebrews to come all the way would be wasted unless they could.

Brother, how are you justified in saying God wasted His time? What in the world is this? Did He not say He came to gather Jerusalem unto Him? Did they not reject Him? So He wasted His time with them attempting to gather them under His wing?

Not at all!

God never wastes His time. Whatever He Sovereignly chose to do, and the reasoning He hedl to call them who would not respond, was a warning to us, not a waste of time, it is for our lesson. That is an irreverent thing to say.

God never wastes His time.

Ever.

 

[freeatlast]

Nope. This is the position of Scripture, and is in fact what they, the Scriptures teach. John 11:52, Acts 13:48, John 10:26, John 6:37, 44 and much more.

He absolutely does call those who cannot and will not obey. Look at the OT. It was God's way to do this. Look at Israel in the wilderness. Were they all believers? No. See 1 Corinthians 10 for a treatment on this. Did He work among all of them, and attempt to gather them all under His Wings? Yep.

NT theology teaches us they are not His sheep, and thus they do not hear nor obey His voice.

He has always done it this way. In this you do err.

I can tell you that you are not going to convince me of your position. I understand that the scripture teaches the Absolut sovereignty of God. I also understand that scripture teaches that man can reject the sovereignty of God. In my limited mind I also understand that I do not understand how that can be, but I accept both. I do not and will not stand on one side of the issue or the other when both are in scripture.
Perhaps my understanding is not correct as to how they both work in unison, but the fact is they do.
Just about every major theological doctrine in scripture has duel possibilities. Christ is man and Christ is God. As a man Christ had a beginning and never had a beginning as God. Jesus is equal with God but the Father is greater then the Son.
I absolutely reject one side or the other in any of these as being absolute in itself so as to exclude an equal truth of the opposite side. I do however accept both sides of each example as being 100% true and yet i have not a clue how it can be. I may set to explain in my limited ability, but even in that, if incorrect in the explanation, the two are still true.
The same with the calling of God unto salvation. Two differing positions given in scripture seeming to oppose each other and yet they are in harmony because God is not divided.
I will say that I do not believe for a minute that He calls anyone who cannot obey His calling. Who so ever calls will be saved. Cannot is not an issue but them not calling is.

 

[quantumfaith]

I can tell you that you are not going to convince me of your position. I understand that the scripture teaches the Absolut sovereignty of God. I also understand that scripture teaches that man can reject the sovereignty of God. In my limited mind I also understand that I do not understand how that can be, but I accept both. I do not and will not stand on one side of the issue or the other when both are in scripture.
Perhaps my understanding is not correct as to how they both work in unison, but the fact is they do.
Just about every major theological doctrine in scripture has duel possibilities. Christ is man and Christ is God. As a man Christ had a beginning and never had a beginning as God. Jesus is equal with God but the Father is greater then the Son.
I absolutely reject one side or the other in any of these as being absolute in itself. I do however accept both sides of each example as being 100% true and yet i have not a clue how it can be. I may set to explain in my limited ability, but even in that if incorrect in the explanation the two are still true.
The same with the calling of God unto salvation. Two differing positions given in scripture seeming to oppose each other and yet they are in harmony because God is not divided.
I will say that I do not believe for a minute that He calls anyone who cannot obey His calling. Who so ever calls will be saved. cannot is not an issue.

:applause: Thank you for the heartfelt spiritual and intellectual honesty.

 

[Winman]

Through the words of Jesus anyone can hear and see, it is Spirit and life.

It doesn't incline anyone's heart to believe it gives two direction. God through the words of Jesus has placed before us life and death so choose life and live.

This is very good and correct. The grace that brings salvation that has appeared to all men is God's Word, and in particular the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

If God had not revealed himself to us, we could not possibly believe. This is what Paul showed when he asked;

AND HOW SHALL THEY BELIEVE IN HIM OF WHOM THEY HAVE NOT HEARD?

Paul doesn't say we need to be supernaturally zapped to have the ability to believe here or anywhere else in scripture, but he does say we need to hear it. You cannot possibly believe something you have no knowledge of.

Then Paul says;

SO FAITH COMETH BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.

Again, no mention of being supernaturally zapped to have faith. No, you simply must hear God's word and decide whether you believe it the truth or not.

But you cannot hear that which is not spoken. So it is God speaking to us in his word that enables us to hear.

We all have abilities (and these are a gift from God), but those abilities are dependent upon God. I have lungs, but I could not breathe if God did not provide air. I have eyes, but I could not see if God did not provide light.

I have the ability to believe, but I could not believe on Jesus unless God revealed him to me through his word.

 

[freeatlast]

Brother, how are you justified in saying God wasted His time? What in the world is this? Did He not say He came to gather Jerusalem unto Him? Did they not reject Him? So He wasted His time with them attempting to gather them under His wing?

Not at all!

God never wastes His time. Whatever He Sovereignly chose to do, and the reasoning He hedl to call them who would not respond, was a warning to us, not a waste of time, it is for our lesson. That is an irreverent thing to say.

God never wastes His time.

Ever.

No He did not waste His time at Jerusalem. They could have comne but they did not.
Look at scripture
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come
Notice the tense? That is choice

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Again, notice the tense? Again choice. He would have accepted them, but they would not accept Him. They made a choice! they left His heart bleeding because of their choice to refuse.
God is not wasting HIS time, we waste His time.

 

[preacher4truth]

No He did not waste His time at Jerusalem. They could have comne but they did not.
Look at scripture
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come
Notice the tense? That is choice

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Again, notice the tense? Again choice. He would have accepted them, but they would not accept Him. They made a choice! they left His heart bleeding because of their choice to refuse.
God is not wasting HIS time, we waste His time.

You said God wasted His time, now you're saying He doesn't. You're talking out both sides your mouth now.

Which is it?

They cannot accept Him unless they are His. That's NT theology.

You're the one who accused Him of wasting his time. That's too bad.

The reason people throughout history have rejected Him? They aren't His. Period. Somehow free willers think this unfair.

God is Sovereign.

Here's what you said:

I will say that I do not believe for a minute that He calls anyone who cannot obey His calling.

But He shows you do err, for He has, and they did not obey. Hard truths.

Does He grant repentance as a gift to everyone?

 

[Winman]

You said God wasted His time, now you're saying He doesn't. You're talking out both sides your mouth now.

Which is it?

They cannot accept Him unless they are His. That's NT theology.

You're the one who accused Him of wasting his time. That's too bad.

The reason people throughout history have rejected Him? They aren't His. Period. Somehow free willers think this unfair.

God is Sovereign.

Here's what you said:



But He shows you do err, for He has, and they did not obey. Hard truths.

Does He grant repentance as a gift to everyone?

It is your doctrine that teaches God wastes his time. Your doctrine teaches that God calls men whom he knows cannot respond. That is not only a waste of time, but it is foolish as well.

 

[freeatlast]

You said God wasted His time, now you're saying He doesn't. You're talking out both sides your mouth now.

Which is it?

They cannot accept Him unless they are His. That's NT theology.

You're the one who accused Him of wasting his time. That's too bad.

The reason people throughout history have rejected Him? They aren't His. Period. Somehow free willers think this unfair.

God is Sovereign.

Here's what you said:



But He shows you do err, for He has, and they did not obey. Hard truths.

Does He grant repentance as a gift to everyone?

No, now you are putting words to my post. I said it would be a waste of time IF they could not obey. You said they could not, not me. I clearly said that God does not waste His time, by giving offers that cannot be filled. You disagreed.

 

[Luke2427]

I can tell you that you are not going to convince me of your position. I understand that the scripture teaches the Absolut sovereignty of God. I also understand that scripture teaches that man can reject the sovereignty of God.

That's illogical. Absolute Sovereignty cannot be rejected. Either God is FULLY in control of all that happens or he is not. Which is it?

The Word of God is clear. "He is before all things and by him all things consist."

God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

There's what we like to believe and think and there's the word of God. At some point we need to choose which one we are going to go with.

In my limited mind I also understand that I do not understand how that can be, but I accept both.

There is no need to accept the illogical position that man can reject the Absolute Svoereignty of God since it is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

On the other hand compatabalism is taght.

Joseph told his brothers- "You meant it for evil, God meant it for good."

God meant it. He meant for it to come to pass. He was in complete control of their throwing Joseph in the pit; complete control of them lying to their father; complete control of them selling him into slavery. God meant for every evil deed to take place: plain and simple. But HE meant it for good.

I do not and will not stand on one side of the issue or the other when both are in scripture.

Both are not in Scripture. Show where God is not in complete control over all that man does.

Perhaps my understanding is not correct as to how they both work in unison, but the fact is they do.

They do not. Show in the Bible where man is able to throw off the rule of God over ANY action man commits.

Just about every major theological doctrine in scripture has duel possibilities. Christ is man and Christ is God. As a man Christ had a beginning and never had a beginning as God. Jesus is equal with God but the Father is greater then the Son.

These are, for the most part, real tensions. Yours is not.

The real tension that comes close to what you are saying is the Sovereignty of God and the RESPONSIBILITY of man.

I will say that I do not believe for a minute that He calls anyone who cannot obey His calling. Who so ever calls will be saved. cannot is not an issue.

It does not matter what you say, brother, it is a fact. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Yet he knows all men everywhere will not repent. He has not intention of saving those who will never believe. So God calls people to repent with know intention of saving them knowing what they will do, right?

 

[preacher4truth]

It is your doctrine that teaches God wastes his time. Your doctrine teaches that God calls men whom he knows cannot respond. That is not only a waste of time, but it is foolish as well.

Not even close. Go over to your "perserverance" <sic> post and answer my reply to you.

I've never said God wastes his time. :thumbsup:

Folks like you make up pitiful remarks and drum up lies. Run along and get a quote where I said this. No where have I ever said God wastes His time. Nowhere have I implied it.

God has invited whom He full well knows won't come. That is His Sovereign choice to do so. I wrote a new thread on this topic.

Anyhow, He's done it all throughout the Bible. Open your eyes. Take a look. I know you free willers don't think He's fair in that.

Now to the truth about you. (I don't have to fabricate a thing about you, as a believer I tell the truth ) You say God doesn't know things until they happen. And that He wastes His time. And that the Bible is simple when it's testimomy is that it is not. Also, you've never provided where I spout reformed quotes constantly. Another fabricated error on your part. It's time to put your money where your mouth is and prove your accusations.

Either prove them or run along.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, now you are putting wiords to my post. I said it would be a waste of time IF they could not obey. You said they could not me. I clearly said that Gos does not waste His time, but giving offers that cannot be filled. You disagreed.

They obviously could not obey.

No one is putting words in your mouth, all your errors are yours, own up to your responsibility.

You say God wastes His time. You actually stated it.

He gave us the 10 commandments knowing we could not fulfill them. He gave the Israelites commands to destroy all the enemies, something they could not and would not do. He's done this many times in Scripture.

You do greatly err in Scripture knowledge.

 

[freeatlast]

That's illogical. Absolute Sovereignty cannot be rejected. Either God is FULLY in control of all that happens or he is not. Which is it?

The Word of God is clear. "He is before all things and by him all things consist."

God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

There's what we like to believe and think and there's the word of God. At some point we need to choose which one we are going to go with.



There is no need to accept the illogical position that man can reject the Absolute Svoereignty of God since it is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

On the other hand compatabalism is taght.

Joseph told his brothers- "You meant it for evil, God meant it for good."

God meant it. He meant for it to come to pass. He was in complete control of their throwing Joseph in the pit; complete control of them lying to their father; complete control of them selling him into slavery. God meant for every evil deed to take place: plain and simple. But HE meant it for good.


Both are not in Scripture. Show where God is not in complete control over all that man does.



They do not. Show in the Bible where man is able to throw off the rule of God over ANY action man commits.


These are, for the most part, real tensions. Yours is not.

The real tension that comes close to what you are saying is the Sovereignty of God and the RESPONSIBILITY of man.




It does not matter what you say, brother, it is a fact. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Yet he knows all men everywhere will not repent. He has not intention of saving those who will never believe. So God calls people to repent with know intention of saving them knowing what they will do, right?

[SIZE=+0]Let me tell you what else is illogical, now I speak as a fool.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]God is 100% man and 100% God. Jesus is God, but He is the Son. There is one God, but the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Spirit is God. God knows everything, but Jesus said that He did not know everything. Got the point?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]All this is true and all this from human logic is illogical. That is why faith trumps logic for me. If you feel that logic for you must trump faith then that is your choice. I choose faith. God is absolutely sovereign, yet His will can be sinned against. Both are as true as the examples i gave and i accept it all.[/SIZE]

 

[freeatlast]

They obviously could not obey.

No one is putting words in your mouth, all your errors are yours, own up to your responsibility.

You say God wastes His time. You actually stated it.

He gave us the 10 commandments knowing we could not fulfill them. He gave the Israelites commands to destroy all the enemies, something they could not and would not do. He's done this many times in Scripture.

You do greatly err in Scripture knowledge.

Show me the statement. I do not believe that He gave us commands we could not obey. The commands came with promises, but none of them included salvation.
I tell a little story to show the irrational belief that God gives commands we cannot keep and it goes like this;
There once was a man who had a son. The child was born with severe physical limitations. He could not move from the neck down. His young years were spent with his mother and father caring to his every need.
As the child grew he was placed into a wheelchair but still had to have his every need cared for. By the time he grew to be about 12 years old his father came to him and said. son you are now old enough to be accountable, and it is time that you start learning to take care of yourself and have some responsibilities so I am giving you some commands.
You are to feed yourself, clean your room, mow the grass, and take out the trash. If you do not do these things I am going to punish you severely. The young man was shocked and bewildered and began to weep. Then he spoke to his father. Father I have sinned against you and I ask you to please forgive me. The father looked lovingly at his son and forgave him. The son began to praise his father for his great mercy and the father was pleased.
Then I ask a question. Is this father a just and good father. The answer is always no he is unjust for tempting his son with commands he cannot possibly obey. Then he accepts praise that should not be his in the first place.
The parallel towards God is exactly how many of the hardliners promote God when they say that He gave us commands we could not keep. The truth is that we can keep them but because of our willful rebellion and love for sin we do not. God is not unjust and He does not give commands that we cannot keep. Holding that view one also has to hold that sin is not their fault, but it is. It is a choice, always a choice. No one ever disciplins a child for an accedent, but willful rebellion requires disciplin. There has never been and never will be a sin committed that was not willfully and carefully chosen and carried out on the part of the sinner. Not one person alive can honestly name one sin that they ever had to commit.

 

[preacher4truth]

Show me the statement. I do not believe that He gave us commands we could not obey.

Have you ever heard of The 10 Commandments?

Uh????

Forest? Trees?

 

[freeatlast]

Have you ever heard of The 10 Commandments?

Uh????

Forest? Trees?

Tell us all which one of the ten is impossible for you to obey? Because if it is impossible that means you practice sin and the scripture teaches that anyone who practices sin is lost.

 

[preacher4truth]

Also, you could not even repent unless He gave that to you:

2 Timothy 2:25

Nor could you have believed, unless He granted you faith to do so:

Ephesians 2:8-9

Romans 12:3

He did it all.

Give Him all the glory. Or don't. Up to you.