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"all have sinned"
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glfredrick
New Member
I don't know. That is God's business. What I do know is that David said that he would go to where his dead son was. After that, the Bible makes no clear definition.
Robert Snow
New Member
If John Calvin was correct, how would David have known that his child was one of the Elect?
Now when he says destroyed, does he mean killed or sent to hell? Reprobate is such a harsh word....means turning your back on the orthodox faith....how could an infant do that? please explain.
Thanks
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I think it is right for God to do as He pleases.
You can read the article at this link: http://betweenthetimes.com/2009/07/24/why-we-believe-children-who-die-go-to-heaven-2/
Mohler and Akin make a good case.
The Archangel
You said:
Then you said:
We all think it is right for God to do as He pleases. My question was (based on the first quote) why do you think God is right in saving an infant?
I've already read Mohler's article. I want to know what you think.
Then you said:
We all think it is right for God to do as He pleases. My question was (based on the first quote) why do you think God is right in saving an infant?
I've already read Mohler's article. I want to know what you think.
Good question. How is possible for an infant to confess his sins, repent, and have faith in Christ? Not possible is it?
So on what basis does God save infants that die?
Search me.
But when he says God condemned infants to eternal death, he means He condemned them to eternal death.
I think it is His pure Mercy.....but I aint no edumicated Theologian!
I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. Thats what I believe anyway.
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So based on this belief, God does not have mercy on some infants and they go to hell. Like Jacob and Esau, correct?
Archangel, your response here blessed me. I have not yet viewed the link, but we agree on Gods character here for sure. I am appreciative of your insights, whether in agreement or not, at other times as well.:love2:
Robert Snow
New Member
Let me repeat myself.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Why is God right in saving an infant? I really don't know. What I do know is that David seemed to have some expectation of seeing his departed infant son. So, I can point to no reason, but if I am in the company of David, I'll take that as pretty good company.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Thank you Cypress for your encouragement. May God be praised.
Blessings,
The Archangel
FWIW:
From Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
10.3 Infants1 dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit who works when and where and how he pleases.2 So also are all elect persons regenerated who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word.
(1) WCF: Elect infants
(2) Joh 3:8
http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm
From Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
10.3 Infants1 dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit who works when and where and how he pleases.2 So also are all elect persons regenerated who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word.
(1) WCF: Elect infants
(2) Joh 3:8
http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm
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I am really surprised that you know that God would do right but have no clue as to why.
As a righteous judge, God must punish sin. If infants are born sinners, guilty of sin, they must be punished. And because they cannot have saving faith in Christ, they are damned from the moment of conception.
That is if you believe in the Augustinian version of original sin (as the Catholics) or the Calvinist version of total depravity. To be a consistent Calvinist, you must believe that God chooses some infants for salvation and some are passed over and will go to hell.
On the other hand, if you believe that infants die as a result of Adam (in Adam all die physically) but that they die spiritually because of their own sin, then you can believe that the grace of God and the blood of Christ which was shed for ALL extends to infants (who have committed no sin) and those who are unable (mentally) to have faith.
But you cannot just say yes God saves all infants but I don't have a clue as to why. That is a cop out and a total neglect of scripture.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This is really uncalled for--saying I've "copped out." Notice that I never said that "I know" God saves those who die in infancy. I believe that He does based on, in part, David's expectation of seeing his recently deceased son. I have no idea the mechanism by which God might do this--but, that is OK.
Just because I am a Calvinist (and a consistent one, thank you very much) doesn't mean that I have to have an answer for everything. Sometimes we need to combine things that we know to be true and say: "I don't know how this works, but I trust in God and His word--and even things that seem to be contradictory to us as finite individuals must have a mechanism that has not been shared with us."
The salvation of infants is a mystery (and, it is not a "fact," but a well-founded suspicion").
By the way, Dr. Mohler is a 5-Point Calvinist and he seems comfortable to say that God can and does save infants, though he (Mohler) cannot pinpoint the exact mechanism. And knowing Dr. Mohler as I do (and Dr. Akin for that matter too), I am comfortable holding the identical position.
The facts we have from Scripture are:
1. In Adam all die (and are born dead)
2. There is no salvation in anyone other than Christ
3. To be saved one must believe and respond to the Gospel in repentance and faith
4. Somehow, someway, David expected to see his dead son--even though the son could fulfill none of the requirements or the Old Testament equivalents.
So, I don't have to explain how these facts go together. These are scriptural facts and they don't contradict.
Did God pay the sins of the infants who were determined to die in infancy or as a result of abortion? Perhaps. It is possible, as the Baptist Convention of 1689 says, that He did. Can we know that for certain? No. But, it is a safe assumption, though we cannot point to chapter and verse.
Does God have to make provision for infants? No. But neither did He have to make provision for us. Does God elect some infants and passover others? Perhaps. I simply don't know because Scripture doesn't tell us.
But, I have faith that God will do right. And if He doesn't save infants or abortion victims, then God be praised--for He is God. If He does save infants or abortion victims, though they cannot exercise faith (which is what the episode with David does seem to suggest), through some means He has not made available to us or told us about, then God be praised--for He is God. But, in the end, I have faith in God because He is a perfectly holy, loving, and righteous God--and He is God, and I am not.
The Archangel
I'll have to agree with Amy, in all honesty it is indeed a cop out. Why is an infant any different than any other sinner? What you are inadvertently doing is creating another dispensation of salvation. The salvation of mankind is NOT nor ever has been a mystery. We have God's Word telling us exactly how sinners are saved, by grace through faith. If you maintain Augustine's position on their condition, you must also maintain the Bible's position on dealing with sinners.
For the record...I find it telling the administrators and moderators here will not edit or rebuke a calvinist when they question the salvation of another when their post is reported...but have no problem doing this to a non cal. Let the reader know the clear bias of the administrators here...
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