"all have sinned"

[glfredrick]

And a hundred more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster

I grant that the word "all" is always seen IN CONTEXT. Webster was correct.

That's why I laid out the context for Paul's use of the word in Rom 3. Paul was very specifically using the word "all" in the context of universal application for all people, always, irregardless of condition.

 

[R. Lawson]

Name one Calvinist-- just one Calvinist, who denies that Romans 3:23 applies to everyone,past,present and future head-for-head. You can't do it. So there is no irony. There is no blooper. There is nothing funny about it at all.

It just shows how uninformed many non-Cals are when it comes to Calvinism --once again!

There are certainly universal passages in the Scripture.The verse in question is the primary one.

I'm an uninformed EX-Cal. Interesting.

In regards to Calvinism: been there, done that, bought the shirt, and the hat.

 

[HankD]

Another dunnybrook. Entertaining however. I'm getting in the ring as well.

RE: Infants.

John the Baptist:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.​

True, he seems to be an exception (though the text does not explicity say that he is such but implies so).​

I guess the point is that if someone (exception to the "rule" or not) can be filled with the Spirit of God while in his mother's womb then God can "save" infants in or out of the womb if He wishes.​

So, I would side with those who say that God regenerates infants who pass before they incur the guilt of sin and death although they have received it from Adam (after all they did die).

HankD

 

[glfredrick]

No one is "saved" (with all that term entails) apart from Christ.

That means in or out of the womb, the requirements for salvation are as universal as are the conditions of our sin.

To suggest otherwise is as Luke 2427 suggests, a way around the cross, and there is no way around the cross. The cross was efficacious for John the Baptist as it is for any elect of God, and in fact, John the Baptist was another example found in Scripture of God's elective action (as are all examples).

 

[psalms109:31]

Some can't come

Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

This my goal as a believer. There is a purpose for God telling us to do this.

I am sorry, but I do not take your position and I never will. If this is what God convince you to do is tell people that some can never come then and you think this is what you are called to do and the Spirit within you tells you this is the right thing to do, then do it. I will not join in, because God has not called me to do that. I will come to God with a clear conscience, because I am doing what I was called to do.

I do believe that God loves the world, as He sees it not man who was called to proclaim something that God hasn't revealed to me. God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That we are to make peace with everyone because of this. To be a light in the darkness and the truth they need to see will be seen in us. All as in what God sees not what man sees or Webster sees. God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, so none of you have no excuse. Listen and learn from Jesus the words of our Father. If Paul was talking about from every tribe or elect ( which I call tap-dancing out of the truth of all) he would of said that and not confuse us. Paul then tells us he is not lying, because people apparently didn't believe him back then. Jesus is the only one with the path to God the only bridge to Him. When we put our trust in Jesus and His word, we are not responsible for our salvation He is, we can now rest in Him and go tell the world the good news. Which is not work, but praise and glory to Him the one who saves our Salvation and our Lord and our God.

Don't you just like the simple message of the evanga-cube?

 

[glfredrick]

Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

This my goal as a believer. There is a purpose for God telling us to do this.

I am sorry, but I do not take your position and I never will. If this is what God convince you to do is tell people that some can never come then and you think this is what you are called to do and the Spirit within you tells you this is the right thing to do, then do it. I will not join in, because God has not called me to do that. I will come to God with a clear conscience, because I am doing what I was called to do.

I do believe that God loves the world, as He sees it not man who was called to proclaim something that God hasn't revealed to me. God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That we are to make peace with everyone because of this. To be a light in the darkness and the truth they need to see will be seen in us. All as in what God sees not what man sees or Webster sees. God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, so none of you have no excuse. Listen and learn from Jesus the words of our Father. If Paul was talking about from every tribe or elect ( which I call tap-dancing out of the truth of all) he would of said that and not confuse us. Paul then tells us he is not lying, because people apparently didn't believe him back then. Jesus is the only one with the path to God the only bridge to Him. When we put our trust in Jesus and His word, we are not responsible for our salvation He is, we can now rest in Him and go tell the world the good news. Which is not work, but praise and glory to Him the one who saves our Salvation and our Lord and our God.

Don't you just like the simple message of the evanga-cube?

Paul built a very careful argument. Do you so simply dispense with it in favor of your feelings on the subject?

For the rest, sure. We wish for all people to come to a saving knowledge of God, and we obey God, who has told us that we should live sinless lives. But we also admit that God is correct -- we are not sinless, and we are hopeless without a Savior who made it possible for us to be adopted into God's kingdom.

You may be presuming (like many who do not "like" what the Bible has to say about our condition) that we should "number the elect." No Calvinist who is honest to the Scriptures would ever do that, though some hyper-Calvinists attempt just that. It is not up to us to decide who is God's elect, and we area ALL called to witness Christ to a lost and dying world. No inconsistency in that at all.

 

[GBC Pastor]

glfredrick:

We wish for all people to come to a saving knowledge of God

Is that true? Do Cal's genuinely wish for all people to come to a saving knowledge of Christ? Because to do so would put you in opposition to God's will according to your position wouldn't it? According to a Cal it is not God's will for all to come to a saving knowledge of Him so why would it be your wish? Wouldn't you wish that all the elect come to a saving knowledge of God instead? And even that would be unnecessary wouldn't it, since all of the elect will come to a saving knowledge of God anyway?

 

[Jarthur001]

glfredrick:



Is that true? Do Cal's genuinely wish for all people to come to a saving knowledge of Christ? Because to do so would put you in opposition to God's will according to your position wouldn't it? According to a Cal it is not God's will for all to come to a saving knowledge of Him so why would it be your wish? Wouldn't you wish that all the elect come to a saving knowledge of God instead? And even that would be unnecessary wouldn't it, since all of the elect will come to a saving knowledge of God anyway?

We pray for God's will be done, just as Christ told us to pray.

Christ prayed....

I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Paul tells us we are to pray for all types of people, even kings. But this is for salvation and peace.

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who will God save? We do not know. This is why we pray that his will be done.

 

[psalms109:31]

Praise God

Paul built a very careful argument. Do you so simply dispense with it in favor of your feelings on the subject?

For the rest, sure. We wish for all people to come to a saving knowledge of God, and we obey God, who has told us that we should live sinless lives. But we also admit that God is correct -- we are not sinless, and we are hopeless without a Savior who made it possible for us to be adopted into God's kingdom.

You may be presuming (like many who do not "like" what the Bible has to say about our condition) that we should "number the elect." No Calvinist who is honest to the Scriptures would ever do that, though some hyper-Calvinists attempt just that. It is not up to us to decide who is God's elect, and we area ALL called to witness Christ to a lost and dying world. No inconsistency in that at all.

I praise God for my God given emotion. That I can look out and see the world as sheep that need a shephard. That I can be moved to my bowes for compasion for them. Give them the hope that is and only can be found in Jesus. Election through the Jews we can see you can be cut out off, but in Christ and those who come to Him that listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus not man can never be cut out. That I can pray to the Lord of the harvast to send out more workers.

If a farmer did nothing with what God gave them, he wouldn't have much of a harvast.

 

[glfredrick]

I praise God for my God given emotion. That I can look out and see the world as sheep that need a shephard. That I can be moved to my bowes for compasion for them. Give them the hope that is and only can be found in Jesus. Election through the Jews we can see you can be cut out off, but in Christ and those who come to Him that listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus not man can never be cut out. That I can pray to the Lord of the harvast to send out more workers.

If a farmer did nothing with what God gave them, he wouldn't have much of a harvast.

I celebrate our emotions with you -- up until the point when emotional arguments transcend Scripture. At that point, we can be as emotionally invested as possible and still wrong.

And, of course I pray for God to save "all people." I can never know who are the elect. Saying otherwise would be a gross violation of the Scriptures. I also agree with Jarthur001 that we pray God's will be done.

It should be no surprise to anyone here that I am Reformed in my theology. It would almost certainly be a shock for many who are not Reformed to hear me preach or teach. I preach and teach somewhat like an Arminian, and plead, convince, work to convict, etc., those who are lost. God's will WILL be done. Nothing I nor anyone else can do to stop that, but I don't have a clue who is God's elect until God draws them. In the mean time, I imitate Paul, and the other NT writers, plus the orthodox Christians down through the ages, who preach their heads off for the lost to come to Christ.

BTW, stop trying to get we Reformed persons to be other than biblical. That is an affront to God and God's people.

Again, EVERY SINGLE SCRIPTURE is for those who are Reformed as well as for those who are not. Which one would you have us disobey just so you can "feel good" about your own theology that cannot deal with a biblical position?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No one is "saved" (with all that term entails) apart from Christ.

That means in or out of the womb, the requirements for salvation are as universal as are the conditions of our sin.

To suggest otherwise is as Luke 2427 suggests, a way around the cross, and there is no way around the cross. The cross was efficacious for John the Baptist as it is for any elect of God, and in fact, John the Baptist was another example found in Scripture of God's elective action (as are all examples).

OK then your telling me that we should start baptizing them as soon as they leave the womb like the the Catholics & Presbyterians....that we Baptists have not advanced beyond Augustinian Theology. Right!

 

[psalms109:31]

I celebrate our emotions with you -- up until the point when emotional arguments transcend Scripture. At that point, we can be as emotionally invested as possible and still wrong.

And, of course I pray for God to save "all people." I can never know who are the elect. Saying otherwise would be a gross violation of the Scriptures. I also agree with Jarthur001 that we pray God's will be done.

It should be no surprise to anyone here that I am Reformed in my theology. It would almost certainly be a shock for many who are not Reformed to hear me preach or teach. I preach and teach somewhat like an Arminian, and plead, convince, work to convict, etc., those who are lost. God's will WILL be done. Nothing I nor anyone else can do to stop that, but I don't have a clue who is God's elect until God draws them. In the mean time, I imitate Paul, and the other NT writers, plus the orthodox Christians down through the ages, who preach their heads off for the lost to come to Christ.

BTW, stop trying to get we Reformed persons to be other than biblical. That is an affront to God and God's people.

Again, EVERY SINGLE SCRIPTURE is for those who are Reformed as well as for those who are not. Which one would you have us disobey just so you can "feel good" about your own theology that cannot deal with a biblical position?

Mine is very biblical I pray for a revival. That men have the same heart as God wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

I don't want reformed people to do anything, but follow as God as leading them. As long as there is people that are out telling them all can't come there will be those who use the same scripture as they do to tell them they can.

 

[glfredrick]

Mine is very biblical I pray for a revival. That men have the same heart as God wanting all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

I don't want reformed people to do anything, but follow as God as leading them. As long as their is people that are out telling them all can't come there will be those who use the same scripture as they do to tell them they can.

I appreciate the concept of "revival" and understand how it stems from an Arminian or semi-Pelagian perspective in that one must only be "sin-sick" to be "revived." But, I don't find the concept of "revival" to be scriptural. The Bible indicates that we must be made entirely new creatures by God's action in salvation.

If a person IS an entirely new creation, then they will probably not need "revival" in that they are now walking with Christ and know it. If they are not, I'm not sure "revival" will be of much use, for what is there to revive?

And, again, while some hyper-Calvinists may try to restrict church attendance to the elect only (and for the life of me, I do not know how they can know!) that is NOT the biblical perspective, and the reason that, like Pelagianism, hyper-Calvinism is seen as an heretical practice.

I do not know any who hold to a Reformed doctrine that would hinder ANYONE from coming to their churches, or from coming to know Christ through the efforts of their or other church activity. In fact, as has been said before, the leading mission-sending persons and agencies down through the ages have been those with a Reformed perspective.

I know that may be difficult to wrap your thoughts around due to what you may have been taught about Reformed doctrine, but it is truth. I would make a conscious effort to disavow myself of anyone who teaches otherwise, for they are not teaching truth. And, please note, that I am NOT saying that those who hold to a true Arminian perspective are not worthy, not capable of holding to the orthodox faith, etc., in fact, I'll say exactly the opposite. The true Reformed (Calvinistic) and Arminian doctrines are not that far apart, actually. It is those who have worked very intentionally to make them so that I have problems with.

 

[glfredrick]

OK then your telling me that we should start baptizing them as soon as they leave the womb like the the Catholics & Presbyterians....that we Baptists have not advanced beyond Augustinian Theology. Right!

How would you arrive at a position like that from what I wrote?

Is baptism now salvific? We (rightly) baptize believers, and that by immersion according to the biblical model.

I guess that if one could somehow "know" that a child was "saved" while in the womb, baptism of that newly birthed one might be in order, but as far as I can tell, they are unable to "confess" their profession of faith so as to be understood. I reject an age of accountability in any form that it is presented. No such thing in the Scriptures. I also reject that there is a certain age that one must be to be saved. It can be from birth to death, as God wills. So, therefore, baptism comes when adequate evidence exists to cause the church to bring that saved one to the waters for the ordinance.

 

[psalms109:31]

I appreciate the concept of "revival" and understand how it stems from an Arminian or semi-Pelagian perspective in that one must only be "sin-sick" to be "revived." But, I don't find the concept of "revival" to be scriptural. The Bible indicates that we must be made entirely new creatures by God's action in salvation.

If a person IS an entirely new creation, then they will probably not need "revival" in that they are now walking with Christ and know it. If they are not, I'm not sure "revival" will be of much use, for what is there to revive?

And, again, while some hyper-Calvinists may try to restrict church attendance to the elect only (and for the life of me, I do not know how they can know!) that is NOT the biblical perspective, and the reason that, like Pelagianism, hyper-Calvinism is seen as an heretical practice.

I do not know any who hold to a Reformed doctrine that would hinder ANYONE from coming to their churches, or from coming to know Christ through the efforts of their or other church activity. In fact, as has been said before, the leading mission-sending persons and agencies down through the ages have been those with a Reformed perspective.

I know that may be difficult to wrap your thoughts around due to what you may have been taught about Reformed doctrine, but it is truth. I would make a conscious effort to disavow myself of anyone who teaches otherwise, for they are not teaching truth. And, please note, that I am NOT saying that those who hold to a true Arminian perspective are not worthy, not capable of holding to the orthodox faith, etc., in fact, I'll say exactly the opposite. The true Reformed (Calvinistic) and Arminian doctrines are not that far apart, actually. It is those who have worked very intentionally to make them so that I have problems with.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 5:
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Jesus word is all the life a man needs to do what God ask, to believe in Him and have life or continue down the path they are on to condemnation.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Those who reject Jesus rejects life, because His word is the Life and the Spirit we need and we are messengers of it.

I believe as you do we are dead, but Jesus is life to the dead and His word provides what we are missing to do the will of God

Philippians 2:
14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[glfredrick]

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 5:
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Jesus word is all the life a man needs to do what God ask, to believe in Him and have life or continue down the path they are on to condemnation.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Those who reject Jesus rejects life, because His word is the Life and the Spirit we need and we are messengers of it.

I believe as you do we are dead, but Jesus is life to the dead and His word provides what we are missing to do the will of God

Philippians 2:
14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Publishing a bunch of Bible verses in this case will not help (or hinder) your argument, for I hold the same verses. We would need to discuss interpretation of those verses, unless you are somehow suggesting that I do not or can not use the entirety of Scripture (as I have already noted above) to support my position.

So, let's deal with your conclusion based on those verses...

Those who reject Jesus rejects life, because His word is the Life and the Spirit we need and we are messengers of it.

I believe as you do we are dead, but Jesus is life to the dead and His word provides what we are missing to do the will of God

We appear to be in agreement... No "but Jesus is life to the dead" required. I hold that to be truth because the Bible says it.

"Those who reject Jesus rejects life..." on the other hand may be true at one point, but not at another. Yes, it is always true that the one who rejects Jesus is dead (rejects life). But at some point, they may accept Jesus and receive life. That is within the realm of possibilities, and I think that you would agree. It is a matter of timing. When God decides to elect those who He elects is His business, not ours, and that time may or may not be when the gospel is heard the first (or 50th) time. Who is to know when the Spirit who gives life is to come into the heart of the person who is currently dead? God says through the writings of John in chapter 3 of his gospel that the Spirit is like the wind, coming and going as He pleases.

What I do not see in any of the verses above is a refutation of the Reformed doctrines, nor an answer to the "revival" issue that indicates that we may be just "sin-sick" and not truly dead. In fact the verses that you chose all speak to the fact that we are indeed dead until Christ makes us alive.

You do know that the concept of "revival" stemmed from Charles Finney, who was swayed by the Arminian teachings of Wesley (versus the Calvinistic teachings of Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield. Finney is largely credited with inventing the idea of an altar call, a sinner's bench, coming forward, and the concept of revival (he wrote a book where he indicated that "revival" could be orchestrated, a now common Arminian and Semi-Pelagian practice). Finney had earlier rejected Calvinism (and perhaps that was in fact hyper-Calvinism) for a "New Divinity" that even went so far as to change the nature of the atonement.

Finney's understanding of the atonement was that it satisfied "public justice" and that it opened up the way for God to pardon people of their sin. This was the so-called New Divinity which was popular at that time period. In this view, Christ's death satisfied public justice rather than retributive justice. As Finney put it, it was not a "commercial transaction." This view of the atonement, typically known as the governmental view or moral government view, differs from the Calvinistic view, known as the satisfaction view where Jesus' sufferings equal the amount of suffering that Christians would experience in hell.

Funny how once a human perspective is introduced into God's doctrines, the requirements for those doctrines also starts to grow less and less meaningful or powerful. That is to be expected, as anything "synergistic" (requiring a God/human partnership) will not, by necessity, be as rigorous as the actions of a Sovereign God doing what only He can do.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Of course God is knocking on the door of our heart asking to let Him in.

God doesn't force His way that is why He places the path before us.

We have to come to a point is what we have more important that Jesus. We can just walk away just like the young rich ruler.

Through His word doesn't incline our hearts to believe that is what a men tries to force on men, and i see it being forced into my belief by man, but continue to resist their call. The word places two roads before us to believe in His Son and be saved or to continue down the path to condemned.

It is the will of God that believers be saved and His choice to do so according to His word.

Jews was cut out and was not able to enter His salvation for unbelief, not because they were not chosen. So God provided a better election that no one will be cut out, disappointed, or be put to shame to trust in Jesus or Lord, our God , our Salvation.

As long as the scripture says God loved the word and wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth you will not get me to follow, and the word of God is eternal.

It is a shame to me to trust in something men have been cut out of for unbelief

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How would you arrive at a position like that from what I wrote?

Is baptism now salvific? We (rightly) baptize believers, and that by immersion according to the biblical model.

I guess that if one could somehow "know" that a child was "saved" while in the womb, baptism of that newly birthed one might be in order, but as far as I can tell, they are unable to "confess" their profession of faith so as to be understood. I reject an age of accountability in any form that it is presented. No such thing in the Scriptures. I also reject that there is a certain age that one must be to be saved. It can be from birth to death, as God wills. So, therefore, baptism comes when adequate evidence exists to cause the church to bring that saved one to the waters for the ordinance.

So where does the Soul of the child go if it dies 10 days after birth as my child did?

 

[glfredrick]

So where does the Soul of the child go if it dies 10 days after birth as my child did?

I cannot say definitively. I also lost my second child, so I wish to know as much as you do, but I cannot know. I can have "hope" and the knowledge that our God is a VERY GOOD God, who will do the best possible thing in accordance with His Word and His will, as long as neither cause Him to be a liar or one who looses some of His divine attributes.

We "know" that God cares about children:

1) He gave us children
2) He gave us laws and rules for dealing with children
3) While Christ walked the earth, Christ was sensitive to children and their needs, indicating that they should "come to Him" and that He would judge harshly those who hindered them.
4) We know that God's commands specifically deal with children and orphans (in regards to social care).
5) We know that God judged nations and peoples for their crimes against children.
6) We know that God told us via the Psalmist and others that He knew us while we were in the womb.
7) We know that David, a man after God's own heart, mourned his son while his son was sick, but once that son died, David proclaimed that his child would never return to him, but that he would to to where his child was.
8) We know that God caused at least one child in the womb to react to Christ (John the Baptist).

There may be other things that we "know" that I have inadvertently left off this ad hoc list.

What we don't know is "exactly" what it is that God does with children if they die before they make a profession of faith in Christ alone based on faith alone by God's grace alone as expressed by the Scriptures alone. We are simply never told, and we can argue until we are blue in the face and never resolve that issue.

But, we also know that all children are also in the class of people called "sinners." And as such, they would still need the efficacious power of the atonement of Christ in some manner, as do all people who are sinners (all people).

 

[glfredrick]

Of course God is knocking on the door of our heart asking to let Him in.

God doesn't force His way that is why He places the path before us.

We have to come to a point is what we have more important that Jesus. We can just walk away just like the young rich ruler.

Through His word doesn't incline our hearts to believe that is what a men tries to force on men, and i see it being forced into my belief by man, but continue to resist their call. The word places two roads before us to believe in His Son and be saved or to continue down the path to condemned.

It is the will of God that believers be saved and His choice to do so according to His word.

Jews was cut out and was not able to enter His salvation for unbelief, not because they were not chosen. So God provided a better election that no one will be cut out, disappointed, or be put to shame to trust in Jesus or Lord, our God , our Salvation.

As long as the scripture says God loved the word and wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth you will not get me to follow, and the word of God is eternal.

It is a shame to me to trust in something men have been cut out of for unbelief

You have just expressed the Reformed doctrine with the exception of your handling of the Jews. No where does any Calvinist (save the hyper-Calvinist) EVER suggest that God forces anyone into belief. It just doesn't work that way. That is another un-truth that SO many people have been taught.